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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: redtonyt on Tuesday 31 January 17 15:25 GMT (UK)
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I am helping a friend from Adelaide, South Australia research his Family Tree.
What I know.
Some strands have been in South Australia for over 150 years. Variously they originate from Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and London. However, the particular family I am interested in came from the Beds/Northants border area. This is them arriving in SA,
SMITH Samuel, Fanny LOVELL, Wm, Eliz, Sarah, Kerrenhappuch, Lydia arrived in SA 1849-05-18 aboard Susannah from London 49-01-20 via Plymouth
Fanny Lovell’s heritage has been reasonably easy to research, as were the children but, Samuel Smith is another story. The only record I have on him is the 1841 Census, when the family was living in Bozeat, Northants.
Census ref
H107, Piece 802, Book 1, Folio 14, Page 20.
Samuel Smith Aged 30 Publican Not born in County
Fanny Aged 25 Not born in County
William Aged 5 Not born in County
Elizabeth Aged 3 Not born in County
Sarah Aged 1 Born in County
My suspicion is that Samuel, was born (possibly at Knotting) the son of u/k Smith and Keren-Happuch. Her maiden name (if my research is correct) was Jones born 1766 at Bletsoe, Beds. The reason for uncertainty over Samuel’s father’s maiden name is the second marriage of Keren-Happuch (as Wildman) to Sn Smith at Thurleigh on 9 June 1796. Detail as found on FreeReg. What does the Sn stand do for, Simon or something completely different?
So my questions are,
Can anyone give me the actual name of the Groom at the marriage in 1796?
Secondly, can the baptism of Samuel Smith be found with his parentage, based on the information as found?
Tony
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There are two baptisms at Odell on 28th July 1839. William & Elizabeth Smith, children of William & Fanny, of Odell. William is given as a dealer.
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Samuel Smyth
Fanny Lovell
marriage: 19 March 1835 Puddington, Bedfordshire
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My suspicion is that Samuel, was born (possibly at Knotting) the son of u/k Smith and Keren-Happuch. Her maiden name (if my research is correct) was Jones born 1766 at Bletsoe, Beds. The reason for uncertainty over Samuel’s father’s maiden name is the second marriage of Keren-Happuch (as Wildman) to Sn Smith at Thurleigh on 9 June 1796. Detail as found on FreeReg. What does the Sn stand do for, Simon or something completely different?
So my questions are,
Can anyone give me the actual name of the Groom at the marriage in 1796?
From the Thurleigh marriage transcript...
9 Jun 1796 Jn (= John) Smith of Rushden Northants to Karenhappuch Wildman alias Tyler, widow, signs Wildman
There's a topic on the Wildman alias Tyler scenario done 10 years ago...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=252727.81
Cheers John
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Thank you all for your replies, especially the one from John. I shall get round to reading that link, all ten pages of it, even though my interest may only be via a marriage.
That marriage detail helps to set my at rest as, I had found a Census return in 1841 for a John Smith, living at Hinwick, Beds, aged 70. My reasoning for picking up on this particular return was the presence of a grandson (assumed) by the name of Low Smith. The father of Keren-Happuck Jones was a Low Jones. Also living there were a John Smith (35) and William (40) the father of Low? In 1851 both John and William can be found with their place of birth noted a Knotting. Hence my thought on the possibility of Knotting for Samuel.
Keren-Happuch Smith died in Wellingborough District in 1840, aged 72. John Smith (probably) died also in Wellingborough District in the last quarter of 1841 aged 72.
Now to tie down Samuel Smith's birth detail and, then researching the remaining Smith Family.
Cheers,
Tony :)
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Keren-Happuch Smith died in Wellingborough District in 1840, aged 72. John Smith (probably) died also in Wellingborough District in the last quarter of 1841 aged 72.
As per Beds FHS Surnames Index CD ...
Keren-Happuch Smith was buried Podington in 1839 abode Hinwick (NBI 20/6/1839)
John Smith buried Podington in 1841 also abode Hinwick (NBI 5/11/1841)
Podington is in the Wellingborough Reg District.
Also have you a more precise year of birth for Samuel Smith, say from Australian records, or from his age at death; being 30 on 1841 census gives us 1811, but there is no sensible baptism for him on/around 1811 in North Beds parishes from that same CD.
Cheers John
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Hi John,
Thanks for your continued interest.
According to the Australian Death Index Samuel Smith died on 27 April 1859, aged 53. The death was registered at Adelaide; his place of residence was given as Marion, South Australia. He was buried in West Terrace Cemetery, Adelaide.
That's all I have managed to find so far. The 1808 was pure speculation based on the '41 census.
Cheers,
Tony
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Found the attached... from Northampton Mercury 24 Dec 1842
In 1841 at Bozeat Samuel Smith was a publican... this chap is a farmer & victualler, so assume it is the same man.... he seems to be assigning all his personal estate & effects to William Smith, farmer of Hinwick ... could this be his brother ?
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In 1841 at Bozeat Samuel Smith was a publican... this chap is a farmer & victualler, so assume it is the same man.... he seems to be assigning all his personal estate & effects to William Smith, farmer of Hinwick ... could this be his brother ?
The answer to your question is, that is what I have always thought (and hoped) and the Notice does appear to support this. Just need to find baptism records to put my theory to bed!
Tony
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It sounds as though Samuel was bankrupt,and his assets were assigned to two trustees in bankruptcy on behalf of his creditors. But I can't find any such proceedings in the London Gazette.
David
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David,
I have asked my son for his thoughts on the notice. Not sure how long it will take for him to reply, he lives in Stockholm.
Tony
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Much quicker than I anticipated.
My son's response,
I have a few thoughts which might (or might not) be heading in the right direction. It does look rather like an informal arrangement with creditors in lieu of bankruptcy. I note the reference to SS's creditors, and since the funds are held on trust for the benefit of those who execute the indenture, it starts to feel like a way to reach an informal (out of court) arrangement. In other words, if you as a creditor execute the indenture, all well and good - but if not, tough luck. Perhaps an integral part of the indenture is that you as a creditor agree to waive your rights in consideration for the share of assets transferred by SS to the trustees.
I came across a scholarly article which looked into the history of bankruptcy laws and while I couldn't get into it, it did seem to suggest that in the 19th century such private law arrangements were favoured in the absence of more flexible statutory bankruptcy rules.
It did also occur to me that the choice of trustees could support this theory - in so far as one of the two trustees is an auctioneer, so very well placed to liquidate any non-cash assets transferred by SS.
Is it unusual that a farmer would be insolvent? Even if this is so, it's eminently likely that SS could have become insolvent in running the business of victualler.
So that's my tuppence worth!
Tony
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Could they be non-conformists ? as there is no baptisms found.....
Samuel Smith married Fanny Lovell by licence.... dated 17/3/1835
Also Daniel Rootham of Hinwick married Lydia Smith by licence.... dated 19/6/1834
Lydia Rootham was daughter of John Smith of Hinwick, farmer - as per the Beds Archives online database reference QSR1840/4/5/2/a dated 21 July 1840... re his despositions in a case against Mary Campion. In later censuses Lydia Rootham is born around 1807 at Knotting.
John Smith's other (assumed) sons John 35 & William 40 are with him at Hinwick on 1841 census
William is with his wife Mary SHARP who he married in March qtr 1841 in Wellingborough RD although that was not in Beds as its not the Beds Surnames CD, & as she was from Wilby Northants (which is also in that RD) the marriage may have taken place there, wonder if that was by licence?. On 1851 William & Mary & children with his brother John are in Hinwick living next door to Daniel & Lydia Rootham. Both William 1818 & John 1805 are down as being born Knotting. John didn't get married.
Another common factor is that Samuel & Fanny had children Lydia & Karrenhappuch, as did William & Mary, while Daniel & Lydia Rootham only had Karrenhappuch. Thus I conclude John, William, Lydia AND Samuel are siblings, born Knotting ... but there's no baptismal evidence to prove it.
Cheers John
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Non-conformism is a possibility. Lydia Smith (d/o Samuel) married into a Family that had a history of Wesleyan worship!
Can I assume that there are no Smith baptisms (to John and Keren-Happuch) to be found in the Parish of Knotting between 1796 and 1812?
Thank you for the information on the Marriage Licences.
Having looked at Lydia Smith I am not convinced about her birth being c1807. The only evidence of this is the 1851 census, where she is said (as transcribed) to be aged 44. On a close look at the original her age seems to me to be 49. The '61 census says age 60. For what it is worth 1841 has 35 years old! After 1861 this family appear to emigrate to Nebraska. There is a headstone available through Find a Grave where Lydia the wife of Daniel Rootham died 8 April 1876, born 12 May 1800! Four unmarried children can be found in Nebraska for the US Census of 1880. Son John can be found on the same memorial having died in 1888.
Cheers,
Tony
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There is a small article on the Biographical Index of South Australians 1836-1885 wherein,
SMITH, Samuel b:c1805 Chequers Bdf Eng d:28 4 1859.................occ:Butcher res:Marion
Any thoughts on "Chequers"?
Tony
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Could it be the Chequers public house in Yelden, just up road from Knotting ?
http://www.rushdenheritage.co.uk/Yelden/oldchequers.html
.... it has a Smith family, maybe a connection ?
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Thanks John,
There may well be a connection.
Considering how difficult it has been to tie down Samuel and assuming he is the son of John, I am not sure how much further I can get. Is John Smith the most common name in England? Aggggggggh. So, finding any link to the Rushden Heritage Article might prove difficult!
All the best,
Tony
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Samuel and Fanny migrated to South Australia on the Susannah in 1849 with family. They were born in Bozeat and Puddington Bedfordshire and died in Adelaide 28.4.1859 and 24.5.1894 resp.
Judy H
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Hi Judy, welcome to Rootschat. What information are you looking for?
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The given name Kerenhappuch runs through the family starting with Samuel Smith's mother Kerenhappuch Gale. She was previously married to a White or Whyatt and her 3rd husband was John Smith.
I believe I have details about Samuel born 1805 Chequers or Bozeat and his family in Australia. I noticed on Roots chat that there was what I believe to be incorrect details posted between 2 parties so if they are interested I may be able to help them.
Judy H
Moderator comment: threads merged for clarity.
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Hi Judy,
I apologise for not replying sooner but selling and moving home has got in the way!
I originated the thread looking for “Samuel Smith c1808” As I explained my opening remarks I am helping out a friend and, pretty well all I have found is contained within the thread.
The maiden name of Gale, I have seen on various trees but, have not been able to confirm by my research.
I would be most happy for you to post any information you hold and, enlighten me as to any incorrect details that have been posted.
Best wishes,
Tony
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Samuel Smith born Bedford 23.3.1805 and died in Adelaide 28.4.1859 age 53. He marr. Fanny Lovell Riddington 19.3.1835. His parents were John Smith and Kerenhapprich Gale 1767-1839.
wondered if her parents were Samuel Gale [a weaver] and Lidia and John Gale bp 26.6.1748 was therir son and Kerenhapprich's brother. It has been suggested that the latter John Gale was her husband so can you enlighten me?
Cheers,
Judy
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Hi Judy,
Thanks for your prompt reply. Now, I am sorry for being a pedantic nuisance but can I ask, where is the baptism of Samuel Smith sourced from?
Yet another nit-pick; I have spent quite some time trying to find Karren Happuch Gale and possible marriages without any success. Do you have any firm dates and or venues?
The only John Smith marriage to a K-H that has been found can be seen on this link,
https://archive.org/stream/bedfordshirepari28bedf#page/n35/mode/2up
I apologise for my negativity, it may be something to do with my previous line of work. Also my friend is very particular about sourcing the information in his pedigree.
Tony :-[
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Thurleigh marriages
6 Nov 1764 Thomas Boon to Kerenhappuch WYATT (don't say she's a widow)
Cannot see a burial for Thomas Boon but Beds Archives have an Admon ref ABP/A 1767/14
15 Nov 1773 John Gale to Kerenhappuch Boon, widow
When did John Gale die for this Keren to marry John Smith (if she did, that is!) & when/where was that?
Also note that a Karenhappuch Gale was buried at Thurleigh on 5 Feb 1805
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Someone who married first in 1764 is not going to be still having children after 1800
John - see your post #4 for details of the marriage of a John Smith to Kerenhappuch Wildman alias Tyler.
It strikes me that there's a lot of speculation about this family! It's always difficult when there's no baptism to establish who the parents were.
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I think Judith's, and three Ancestry tree's information about Kerenhappuch Gale being the wife of John Smith is wrong.
John posted the details of John Smith's 1796 marriage to Kerenhappuch Wildman alias Tyler, widow in reply #4.
This appears to be her first marriage: in Thurleigh on 24 Sep 1788 to John Wildman, as Kerenhappuch Jones. Her baptism in Bletsoe on 19 May 1766, daughter of Low and Charity Jones, fits much better with her having children in the early 1800s, clearly impossible for Kerenhappuch Gale. It also fits with details posted earlier by Tony about Low Smith (reply #5). What it doesn't do though, is prove conclusively that Samuel Smith was the son of John and Kerenhappuch. Hopefully Judith's birth date for him of 23 Mar 1805 will provide the proof. Fair bit of circumstantial evidence though.
David
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I concur David,
John Wildman, senior, carpenter was buried Thurleigh on 1 Feb 1795 just time enough for her to recover & then marry John Smith on 9 June 1796. She is the Kerenhappuch Jones baptised Bletsoe in May 1766. As Keren... Smith she died in 1840 aged 72 so born c.1768
And we can disregard the Kerenhappuch Wyatt, who married Thomas Boon 1764 & then John Gale in 1773 as being out of it agewise, reckon she's the Keren... Gale buried 1805
However what became of the Karenhappuch Wyatt, daughter of Thomas Wyatt, junior, famer & wife Elizabeth who was baptised Thurleigh on 1 Nov 1768 ... or have I just added to the confusion.
Both Thomas Wyatt senior & junior were buried at Thurleigh in 1771. What did wife Elizabeth do ?
Its interesting that Low Jones married Charity Wyatt at Thurleigh on 19 Nov 1764.
John
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I know it's nice to tie up every loose end John, but I've wasted literally days of time over the years tying up loose ends, so forgive me for not going down that road! And anyway I have an appointment with a barman. Cheers!
David
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Have one for me! Cheers
We've been here before... it's 10 years after....
http://newsarch.rootsweb.com/th/read/BEDFORD/2007-05/1180011778
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Thanks John and David,
Have one on me as well David, but only if you are not driving!
Shall I muddy the waters a bit further,
Keren Happuch Jones was baptised the daughter of Low Jones and Charity at Bletsoe on 19 May 1766.
There is a marriage (some 18 months earlier 19 Nov 1764) at Thurleigh of Low Jones to Charity WYATT!
Are we missing a generation, or so?
A befuddled Tony, scratching head, and still hoping that Samuel Smith will pop out of the woodwork.
Tony
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I think I am about to enter a cubic spiral and disappear .. .. ... .... but will I ever come out of the other end.
Unfortunately I don't have access to much in the way of Beds online PR entries so, here is another pebble in the pond. Low Jones (Farmer) buried 18 January 1772 at Thurleigh. Followed by a marriage at Keysoe on 22 December 1772 Samuel Wildman to Charity Jones. Found on Family Search so no information as to her status! Could she have been Low Jones' widow?
Tony ???
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A Charity Wildman was buried in Thurleigh on 19 Aug 1789. No other detail on the NBI
Only diet coke Tony. I don't drink and drive.
I'm pretty sure that no baptisms for this family will be found. It's a case of making the most from the circumstantial evidence that we have, and it will then come down to the balance of probabilities.
What bemuses me from that 10 year old thread is the reference to the 1920s letter, which seems to mix the two Karenhappuchs. But thanks to the various marriages found by John I think we've come to the right conclusion in this thread.
David
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Keysoe marriage 22 Dec 1772... Charity Jones, widow to Samuel Wildman, widower
Thurleigh burial 19 Aug 1789... Charity, wife of Samuel Tyler alias Wildman
Thurleigh burial 11 Dec 1793... Samuel Wildman alias Tyler, farmer
Beds Archives have an Admon for him ref ABP/A 1793/19 .. he's a yeoman
Samuel Wildman, farmer first married Martha Flanders, spinster, with parents consent at Keysoe on 4 June 1754. Martha, wife of Samuel Tyler buried at Keysoe on 16 Jul 1761.
I suspect Charity Wyatt who married Low Jones 1764 & Kerenhappuch Wyatt who married Thomas Boon also 1764 and perhaps Thomas Wyatt, junior, who married Elizabeth ? when? & baptised Karenhappuch Wyatt in 1768 are siblings; but cannot find any baptisms but assume father was also Thomas Wyatt. Both buried 1771 at Thurleigh. One of them leaves a will the other an Admon. Possibly Thomas senior's wife was Mary as a Mary Wyatt, widow is buried 5 Oct 1777 & she also leaves a will. Maybe these probate records provide a clue.
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Samuel Smith born Bedford 23.3.1805..........
...... His parents were John Smith and Kerenhapprich Gale 1767-1839
Judith, It'd be good to know if you have any evidence to back this up. It is probable that John & Kerenhappuch Smith were his parents, but have you his baptism... & how do you know mother's maiden name was Gale?
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I am descended from the Smith line and family lore states that Samuel Smith was born in Chequers Bedford 23 3 1805. His mother was Kerenhapprich Gale. Samuel married 19.3.1835 Fanny Lovell born 14 9.1813. Podington. If there was ever any documentary proof it is long gone and the family bible with it. This has been a puzzle for many years so first prize to anyone who solves it!
Judy