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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Merionethshire => Topic started by: pritchardgeo on Tuesday 31 January 17 23:20 GMT (UK)
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hello can you help me again please.
looking back at my family tree I have a census for 1851 in chirk Shropshire
for a George Pritchard born 1816 llantysilio
what is very confusing and a mistake I think I have made is,i have a George Pritchard born 1812-1816 chirk.
is this the same person please.
I have a marriage in pontfadog 1832 to Elizabeth Roberts.
going around and around on this.
any help please.thank you again.brian
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Two distinctly different birthplaces - have you looked for him on later censuses to see what birthplace he gives?
Llantysilio is in Denbighshire but you have posted on the Merionethshire board
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Are you confusing the 1851 entry?
It's the 1851 for Wales and he was living in Chirk Denbighshire (not Shropshire) and born in Llandisilio, Denbighshire
what is very confusing and a mistake I think I have made is,i have a George Pritchard born 1812-1816 chirk.
Giving that span of birthyear you are quoting from the 1841 census
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1851 has a son George aged 6 born Chirk
Freebmd has his birth in the September qtr 1845 and GRO search shows mmn is Roberts
If George snr was born 1816 - an 1832 marriage would mean he was only 16yrs old and Elizabeth 18
Eldest daughter was born 1834 so that 1832 marriage does fit
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There is a baptism for George Pritchard on 21st August 1814, son of Thomas and Ann, in Chirk, Denbighshire.
Also:
Thomas - b 13 Oct 1805 bap 19 Nov (possible burial on 11 Oct 1806)
Thomas - b 25 Jul 1808 bap 18 Sep
David
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There is a baptism in Chirk for a George Pritichard on 21 April 1814, father - Thomas, mother - Ann. Nothing showing for Llantysilio or Llangollen (which is just a few miles away).
Llantysilio is in Denbighshire but the Reg District/Poor Law union was Corwen, Mer. Likewise, Chirk was RD/PLU was Oswestry , Shropshire.
Added - noticed that they married 'with consent of Parties ' , which suggests one or both were under 21. As it was by licence, the licence record may have more info.
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sorry to have posted on the wrong board
i have the marriage bond attached
and that they married in Llangollen 1832
in most census returns it just says born Denbighshire. except the 1851 census that has him born in llantysilio but living in chirk.
just wondering if that baptism is held at the national library of wales ?.
thanks.brian
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A copy of the original baptism entry can be seen by following this link
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCGT-RQM
(FindMyPast is a pay site)
The National Library would have a copy also.
Clwyd FHS have the entry in the BMD booklets that they have produced.
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Just seen that George was 'of Halton' on the ML. Halton, as you may know is in that part of Chirk which we locals (current and past!) call Black Park.
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thanks for the reply
I may go to the record office to check baptisms in llantysilio to rule this out.
I have copy of the birth/baptism that indicates chirk. of a George Pritchard
but it could be that as he married in Llangollen aged 16.he may be that he was in chirk/halton when he was married. working as a collier.
it is confusing.but looking through the census records 1841 has hin born in Denbighshire and the 1851 indicates llantysilio.
also there seems to be another George Pritchard born around the same time but died in gresford
all of the Pritchard of my family tree I can link to chirk and rhos etc.
do you think its worth going to the record office to check the baptisms in llantysilio. perhaps they
have the only records ?,c.f.h do not have them either
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On the narrow point of the 1841 Census,he would be given as born in Denbighshire whether he was born in Chirk or Llantysilio.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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If he was baptised in 1814, he would have been 18 when he married in 1832 - quite possible.
Have you got any other evidence of age apart from the 1851 census - other censuses or deaths? Ages given on censuses are vey often inaccurate.
From my research in both parishes (which has been fairly extensive as grandparents were Chirk or Llantysilio lines), I've not come across any Pritchards in Llantysilio and quite a few in Chirk.
Gadget
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There are some Prichard baptisms at Llantysilio but no George.
Children of Richard and Anne - Benjamin 1800, Elizabeth 1805 and Thomas 1809.
There was a George, son of Edward and Mary of Burton, near Wrexham - born 2nd October 1808 and bapt on 23rd
David
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I think we need further evidence of George's age. Info from one census record (i.e 1851, as 1841 was probably rounded) isn't enough to confirm a birthdate.
Ill see if my Blackwell non-conformist records give any info.
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It might be worth checking if the George Pritchard, bapt Chirk in 1814, survived. If there's no sign of a death or evidence of another marriage, census info.
Added -checked my Llantysilio records - Richard was a Blacksmith.
Added 2- just noticed that on the 1841 they are living next to 2 sets of my relatives - Seth Twigg (half brother of ancestor) and James Mates( direct line) :)
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Think this might be a possible explanation:
1851
Pentre, Chirk HO107/1993/809/18
George Pritchard, 35, coal miner. b. Llantisilio
..... etc.
John, son, 3, b. Chirk
Burial 21 Feb 1857, Chirk, Elizabeth Pritchard, 44, abode - Gledrid, St Martins
1861
Hengoed, Daywell (close to Gobowen), Oswestry RG9/1880/6/6
George Pritchard, 47, collier, b. Chirk
Mary, wife, 50, b. Oswestry
John, s, 13, b. Chirk
Mary, d, 10, b. St Martins
Thomas, s, 7, b. St Martins
1871
St Martins, Oswestry RG10/2784/91/4
George Pritchard, 58, coal miner, b. Chirk
Mary,wife, 60 b. Llanelly
Thomas, s, 16, coal miner, b. St Martins
1881
St Martins, Oswestry RG11/2660/40/7
George Pritchard, 66, widower, coal miner, b. Chirk
Added - from memory this George died in 1887 - buried Weston Rhyn/St Martins but abode is Cefn. Death cert RD is Wrexham. This might explain the probs from your earlier thread about his birth/death.
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A bit more - I've now had chance to read your previous threads* and see that we had problems finding possible marriage for Thomas Pritchard and Ann. I think this might be a possible:
Oswestry , 12 Sept 1804
Thomas Pritchard and Ann Jones, by Banns .
Will see if I can find more later :)
* Added - other threads here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=743061.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=743061.9
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=762441.18
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A bit of a long shot - I can't see a second marriage for George to Mary before the 1861 census but there is one in 1869 to Mary Russell in Oswestry, where she gave her birth place in 1861.
Also, there is a Mary Russell of the right age in Oswestry in 1851 - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGDG-XXK
If the correct person, it should give George's father. Unfortunately, it isn't online, so would mean purchasing the certificate.
David
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Looks a good possible, David. It would be worth £9.50 to sort it al out :)
Also, the Llantysilio borthplace, given for George on the 1851, might be just an error on the original household form and then transferred to the enumerators book - it could be that the writer mis-wrote Elizabeth's birthplace and two Llans were written on it - Llandrillo and Llantisilio. I say this as I had a similar problem with my grt grandmother's birthplace - on one census form it said Llandrisio and on a later one, Llantisilio. She was born in Llantysilio and on the census there in 1841.
Added- just noticed the Sarah Davies aged 13 with Mary on the 1851. In my searches I found a marriage for a James Russell and a Mary Davies, Oswestry.
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So, the possible scenario is:
Thomas Pritchard marries Ann Jones, Oswestry, 12 Sept 1804
They have:
Thomas, b. Chirk, 13 October 1805 - possible death Oct 1806
Thomas, b.Chirk 25 July 1808 (this could be a match for the Thomas living near George on the later census)
George , bpt. Chirk 21 Aug 1814
(Possibly/probably other children)
George marries Elizabeth Roberts in 1832
They have:
Ellen )
Samuel )
Sarah ) Chirk
George )
John )
Mary ) St Martins
Thomas )
Elizabeth dies in 1857, St Martins
At some stage before the 1861 census, George sets up house with Mary (Russell). He has young children, who need a 'mother'.
George marries Mary in 1869.
Mary dies pre 1881.
George dies 1887.
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thank you that's brilliant detective work !.
have been looking hard at the 1861 census including Samuel his son and was unable to find any of them so this could be the answer why.
do you happen to know were I can get the £9.50 certificate from.
think I can give the record office a miss now.
its amazing really gadget you have family next door to them.
thanks again,if you can add anything it would be brilliant.
brian pritchard
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The marriage ref for George Pritchard and Mary Russell is
Oswestry, 2nd Quarter (April/May.June) , 1869, Volume 6A, page 1295
you can order it online from:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You have to register with them.
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If the Thomas Pritchard was George's brother, they moved by 1851 ~
Walsall Street, Wolverhampton HO107/2020/197/51
Thomas Pritchard, 43, coal miner
Rebecca, 42
Sophia, 14
John, 17
Mary, 12
Maria, 11
Tamar, 7
Thomas, 5
All born Chirk. It fits with the 1841 entry.
There was quite a movement of miners from the Chirk/St Martins area to the Wolverhampton/Willenhall area in the late1840s. My Stokes family moved there but came back in the late 1850s/1860s.
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thanks again
have just ordered the marriage cert
will let you know how it goes.
thank you.
brian pritchard
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In case you find a link to Thomas who moved to Wolverhampton.
Thomas Prichard married Rebecca Phillips in Ruabon on 22nd August 1831
Witnesses - Thomas Williams and Phoebe Griffiths.
Baptisms at Chirk
Elizabeth of Parkgate - 4th December 1831
John of Parkgate - 10th March 1833
George of Halton - 4th April 1835
Sophia of Halton - 31st July 1836
Mary of Halton - 24th June 1838
Maria of Halton - 15th March 1840
Tamar of Pen-y-Park - 7th May 1843
On same day
Tamar daughter of Thomas Roberts, collier, and Christiana, nee Cash, of Black Park
Thomas of Pen-y-Park - 8th January 1846
Rebecca was a widow in Oswestry in 1861-1871
David
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Inoted that marriage yesterday as the Pheobe Giffiths seems to ring bells.
The Cash families of Black Park gave most of their female children interesting names. I'm sure I've got a Tamar Cash in my tree somewhere - not direct. One of my descendants is an Ann Cash (b.c. 1800). They are very elusive as they move between CofE and Methodism :-\
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thanks great stuff.
just a little worried.
if I look on familysearch for ellen Pritchard daughter of George and Elizabeth it also gives birth place of llantysilio.
regarding the earlier posts
have found George in western rhyn 1871 and 1881 census and here they have a son Thomas.
thanks you both.
brian pritchard
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Hi Brian
Can you give the link to the FS record for Ellen, please?
I've found a burial but not sure if it's her:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC54-QM7
Gadget
(Added - earlier census suggests that she was a widow - see 1901 RG13/5248/31/4
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This is the most likely baptism for Ellen:
Chrik, 29 July 1832
Eleanor Pritchard, d of George (collier) and Elizabeth of Halton
I think you might have misread the FS entry.
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I noticed that, in 1871, George was living at 7 Phillips Square and Rebecca Pritchard was at no 16.
The baptisms for George's other children:-
Samuel - 13th April 1834 of Halton
Sarah - 5th February 1837 of Halton
James - 18th June 1840 of Halton
Elizabeth - 27th April 1842 of Halton
John - 26th December 1847 of Pen-y-Park
George - 27th May 1848 of Pen-y-Park
The abodes seem to follow the same pattern as those for Thomas.
David
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This look like Thomas Pritchard's death:
Thomas Pritchard, age 46, 2nd Q, 1854, Wolverhampton, Vol 6b, page 336
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Just found an interesting baptism/possible other brother:
Ruabon, Dec 13 1818, Edward Pritchard, son of Thomas (collier) and Hanna, Cefn.
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thank you gadget. yes this looks correct the one I was referring to.
Citing this Record
"Wales, Denbighshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC54-QM7 : 3 September 2015), Ellen Pritchard, 14 Mar 1916, Burial; from "Parish Records Collection 1538-2005," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Llantysilio, Denbighshire, Wales, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.
regs.brian
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this could be george`s baptism then
thanks.brian
copyright image removed
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thank you gadget. yes this looks correct the one I was referring to.
Citing this Record
"Wales, Denbighshire, Parish Registers, 1538-1912," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KC54-QM7 : 3 September 2015), Ellen Pritchard, 14 Mar 1916, Burial; from "Parish Records Collection 1538-2005," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Llantysilio, Denbighshire, Wales, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey.
regs.brian
But it's not your Ellen. Pritchard was her married name - see my added info~
Added - earlier census suggests that she was a widow - see 1901 RG13/5248/31/4
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I think we've already found the baptism you have quoted in Reply #33:
There is a baptism for George Pritchard on 21st August 1814, son of Thomas and Ann, in Chirk, Denbighshire.
Also:
Thomas - b 13 Oct 1805 bap 19 Nov (possible burial on 11 Oct 1806)
Thomas - b 25 Jul 1808 bap 18 Sep
David
and
There is a baptism in Chirk for a George Pritichard on 21 April 1814, father - Thomas, mother - Ann. Nothing showing for Llantysilio or Llangollen (which is just a few miles away).
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thank you gadget just wanted to eliminate that possibility of llantysilio. happy with that.
just out of interest George's baptism has Thomas and ann, but the brother you mentioned as a possibility has Thomas and Hanna. is this common please.
thanks for all the look ups gadget.
p.s have found a baptism that may be George father dated 1794 Thomas son of tho and mary under Denbigh baptisms may 22nd of afonhadley which may be by black park.
thanks again brian
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It's probably Afon Bradley - I think it's the farm where the road from Black Park met the Llangollen road
Yes here it is:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=328755&y=339490&z=120&sv=328755,339490&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=854&ax=328755&ay=339490&lm=0
The Bryn Melin school bus used to stop by that turn to pick up the pupils from BP and Halton and then on to Llangollen (takes me back to my youth- 7 years on that bus :D )
I mentioned the George baptism as a possible as Annah/Hannah/Hanna can often also be an Ann.
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thanks gadget explains it.
will look more into it.
but have a lot of info now so thank you very much.
need to put things together and find Eleanor and sarah etc.
great stuff.
best regs.brian
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just for info
you were correct
George "bachelor" married mary Russell "widow" in 1869 st Andrews church. parish of welsh frankton. marys father given as Richard Howell and George`s Thomas Pritchard collier.
thank you.brian
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Glad to hear that - thanks for letting me know :)