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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: BCameron on Thursday 02 February 17 01:47 GMT (UK)

Title: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Thursday 02 February 17 01:47 GMT (UK)
Hi there, I was wondering if anyone could give any advice on tracking down a place of birth of someone.

I have recently become eligible to apply for British citizenship as my father was Scottish. However, the forms require me to enter my grandparents information, including the town of their birth.

My father was estranged from his parents (who are both now dead), and while I have my father's birth certificate and know my grandfathers date of birth, name, wife and children names, his occupation and date of marriage I have been unable to find the town of his birth. To track down my grandmother's details, I was able to enter her name into Scotland's People website along with her year of birth and her birth town appeared alongside the option to purchase her birth certificate. However, my grandfather's name was John Cameron (with no middle name) and in 1934 (his birth year) there were dozens of people born all over Scotland with that name.

No gynecology sites appear to have tracked our family, I have already tried that option. Please let me know if anyone has any other methods to track his birth place down - given the information I have.

Thanks so much!
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 02 February 17 02:52 GMT (UK)
Hi B & welcome to RC  ;D

Can you please give us the names of your grandparents & all the details you can from the marriage cert. please (assuming they were married in Scotland)?

Where were they married would be the 1st thing to look at & what were the addresses of each on the marriage cert?

What were the names of their parents given on the marriage cert. as this will help locate them in census records?

Depending on his father's occupation he may have moved around?

Did any of the children have any unusual or less common names which would be easier to look for?

Do you know any of their yrs of birth or guesstimates & names in order of eldest to youngest which can be compared with RD of births?

Please do not post the names of any possible living people though, only people you know to be deceased.

Annie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 02 February 17 06:09 GMT (UK)

No gynecology sites appear to have tracked our family, I have already tried that option. Please let me know if anyone has any other methods to track his birth place down - given the information I have.

Thanks so much!

Um, I think you might mean genealogy?  ;)
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Maggsie on Thursday 02 February 17 12:54 GMT (UK)
Is Um a word?
Maggsie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Maggsie on Thursday 02 February 17 13:00 GMT (UK)
Hi BCameron,
are you in the USA?
Maggsie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Ruskie on Thursday 02 February 17 14:46 GMT (UK)
Is Um a word?
Maggsie

It's an interjection.

BCameron,
Does the form specifically ask for town of birth? A birth would have been registered in a district. Do the forms ask you to supply your grandparent's birth certificates?
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 03 February 17 00:52 GMT (UK)
Is Um a word?
Maggsie

Eh, yes it is  ;)

Annie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 03 February 17 01:40 GMT (UK)
Is Um a word?
Maggsie

Always pays to research before asking questions like this, Maggsie.

As pointed out by Ruskie and Merriam-Webster it is an interjection. It is used to indicate a hesitation/pause.

M-W points out that its first know use was in 1672.

Annie, your equivalent is 'erm' I believe, yes?

Jamjar
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 03 February 17 02:30 GMT (UK)
Annie, your equivalent is 'erm' I believe, yes?

Jamjar

Yes Jj but I think the term 'erm' might possibly be more of the 'English' way (possibly other countries too) whereas mine 'eh' is Scottish dialect (well, what I would use) as opposed to 'erm'  ;D

Annie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: majm on Friday 03 February 17 02:56 GMT (UK)
Ummmmmm

Just in from one of my esteemed elderly relatives (born NSW, Australia 1910) ........

 :) "Erm" used in NSW public service workplace conversations until mid 1950s when it was abandoned in favour of a slight cough immediately followed by "Ahemm" and then the speaker went straight into verbal commentary without regard to the conversation being interrupted.   

 :) "Erm" was spoken quietly,  whereas "Ahemm" was spoken aggressively, and if speakers were all standing, the speaker would take a step forward.

If seated (usually in a formal meeting) and allowed to continue speaking, then the minute taker may have included the significant words in any official records, but if an "Ahemm" user was 'put back in their place' by the chairman then the minute taker would usually note "Chairman reminded all present to refrain from interjecting".

I then asked about "Agh"  and I am informed (by esteemed rellie) that it is a long standing expression, used frequently throughout his life, so its NSW usage may begin possibly back into early 19th century.  It is simply a polite way of saying "Phew, so you've finally understood and I don't have to keep repeating myself"

I also asked about "Um" and I am informed that "Yes, of course, those RChatters are right, it is an interjection, a polite one, seeking gentle quietness for those present to actually pause, look at the speaker, listen and comprehend, so that they can contradict or agree with the speaker."

And errrrrrrrrrr ....  then some people wonder how I can be so long winded in my own explanations... 

JM

 
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Friday 03 February 17 04:40 GMT (UK)
Yes I do mean genealogy, sorry I think that must have auto corrected!

Hi B & welcome to RC  ;D

Can you please give us the names of your grandparents & all the details you can from the marriage cert. please (assuming they were married in Scotland)?

Where were they married would be the 1st thing to look at & what were the addresses of each on the marriage cert?

What were the names of their parents given on the marriage cert. as this will help locate them in census records?

Depending on his father's occupation he may have moved around?

Did any of the children have any unusual or less common names which would be easier to look for?

Do you know any of their yrs of birth or guesstimates & names in order of eldest to youngest which can be compared with RD of births?

Please do not post the names of any possible living people though, only people you know to be deceased.

Annie


My Grandparents names were John Cameron born 14 October 1934, and Patricia Mary Cameron (nee Folan) born 30 March 1936 in Old or West Kilpatrick in Scotland. I don't have the marriage certificate, however from my Father's birth certificate it says they were married on 10 April 1955 in Renfrew, Scotland.

My grandfather's occupation on my Father's birth certificate is listed as a ship steward. I also know that his father was also called John Cameron, and his mother's name was Mary (although I do not know her maiden name - it may have been some variation of Morris).

I know the children's names, however they are all still living, and as such I won't post their information. However, it may be of note that both my father and I have the middle name Saith. Although I can't find any John Cameron's with the middle name Saith, so it may not be much help.

Hi BCameron,
are you in the USA?
Maggsie


No, I am based in Australia, my father's family immigrated here in the 1960s. My grandfather died here, however the laws here are very different to the UK and they will only release copies of death certificates to the next of kin.

Is Um a word?
Maggsie

It's an interjection.

BCameron,
Does the form specifically ask for town of birth? A birth would have been registered in a district. Do the forms ask you to supply your grandparent's birth certificates?


The form's do specifically ask for town. From my understanding, a district in Scotland is essentially a town? My Father's birth certificate says 'the district of Paisley' however Paisley is a town/city. I don't need to their birth certificates, just their place and date of birth.

It seems ridiculous that I have so much information on them, and still can't figure our where my Grandfather was born or what 'John Cameron' he is on the list of Scotland's People!
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: majm on Friday 03 February 17 04:46 GMT (UK)
I wonder if the immigration papers will give exact place of birth for your grandfather?   The National Archives of Australia should have these. 

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx

ADD
If your Grandfather died in NSW less than 30 years ago, no member of the general public can access the dc, BUT any person named on that dc can access it.    So your Dad can apply for a copy of it, as the dc should list Grandfather's children by name and age. 

JM

Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Friday 03 February 17 04:49 GMT (UK)
I wonder if the immigration papers will give exact place of birth for your grandfather?   The National Archives of Australia should have these. 

http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx

ADD
If your Grandfather died in NSW less than 30 years ago, no member of the general public can access the dc, BUT any person named on that dc can access it.    So your Dad can apply for a copy of it, as the dc should list Grandfather's children by name and age. 

JM



Hi there, I used these records to find his exact date of birth (as before I only knew the year) but they don't appear to list the place of birth at all from what I can see? I used RecordSearch and searched the Immigration collection to do this.

Yes, my Father may be able to get a copy of his death certificate. However, he is not supporting me to pursue British citizenship, due to his own issues with their life in Scotland and his parents. So sadly I don't think he will want to go through that process for me.
 
Cheers
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: majm on Friday 03 February 17 04:54 GMT (UK)
Have you asked NAA if there's more records available up not uploaded ... your Dad should be able to apply ... eg the actual application to migrate, the medical/dental records etc...  these used to be displayed but were withdrawn several years ago due to concerns about the possible sensitive info displayed.

http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/contact/

JM

Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Friday 03 February 17 04:58 GMT (UK)
Have you asked NAA if there's more records available up not uploaded ... your Dad should be able to apply ... eg the actual application to migrate, the medical/dental records etc...  these used to be displayed but were withdrawn several years ago due to concerns about the possible sensitive info displayed.

http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/contact/

JM

See above comment about my Father. However, that's really interesting to know there are more documents. Do you know if there are any avenues to access them for family members? I may contact NAA.

Thanks!
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: majm on Friday 03 February 17 05:04 GMT (UK)
The relevant NAA file is indexed at the online index, but it has not yet been examined.   I can find it easily at their index.   You could ask the NAA for advice and explain your purpose.  They may dedact part of the file or otherwise, or they may simply provide you with the necessary documentation to assist your application, or after the file has been examined the determination may be that it is not suitable for release.  But you need to at least approach them, as they hold the records.

JM
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 03 February 17 05:05 GMT (UK)
You can order the marriage cert ScotlandsPeople, online:

CAMERON JOHN        Spouse: FOLAN  1955 reference 575/ 42 entry number 42 Renfrew

Jamjar
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Friday 03 February 17 05:08 GMT (UK)
The relevant NAA file is indexed at the online index, but it has not yet been examined.   I can find it easily at their index.   You could ask the NAA for advice and explain your purpose.  They may dedact part of the file or otherwise, or they may simply provide you with the necessary documentation to assist your application, or after the file has been examined the determination may be that it is not suitable for release.  But you need to at least approach them, as they hold the records.

JM

Thanks, good idea I will do this!

You can order the marriage cert ScotlandsPeople, online:

CAMERON JOHN        Spouse: FOLAN  1955 reference 575/ 42 entry number 42 Renfrew

Jamjar

Yes, unfortunately though marriage certs at the time did not list place of birth I believe? As such it probably won't be very helpful for my purpose, as place of birth is all I need!
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Jamjar on Friday 03 February 17 05:13 GMT (UK)

Yes, unfortunately though marriage certs at the time did not list place of birth I believe? As such it probably won't be very helpful for my purpose, as place of birth is all I need!


Would it not have his mother's maiden name. If so you could possibly find their marriage and then possibly narrow the area of birth for your grandfather.

J.
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Friday 03 February 17 05:23 GMT (UK)

Would it not have his mother's maiden name. If so you could possibly find their marriage and then possibly narrow the area of birth for your grandfather.

J.

Yes you're right, however it would still be a lot of guessing and I need to provide a specific place unfortunately.

Does anyone know if the Scottish National Archives has people that can search more accurately than is available online? My main issue is that while I have my grandfather's exact birth date, Scotland's People website only allows you to search by year, which brings up to many possibilities.   
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: majm on Friday 03 February 17 05:27 GMT (UK)
You can contact Scotland's National Archives directly  :D

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/researching-online


JM
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: isobelw on Friday 03 February 17 09:14 GMT (UK)
The surname Saith is very unusual in Scotland and ScotlandsPeople only has a handful of BMD. However if you put Saith in as a first name it brings up a number of entries of Camerons with middle name Saith ( including the person I assume is your father) This is such an unusual name combination that I feel there has to be a link with your family.
Of note are the birth entries for the following-
Janet Saith Cameron born 1930 Gorbals Glasgow
James Saith Cameron born 1932 Gorbals/ St Rollex Glasgow
With these in mind i think the 1934 entry for John Cameron in Gorbals may be the one you are looking for. Also the entry number is very high ( in the thousands) which would suggest that the entry is for a birth late in the year which would fit your known date of birth.
Isobel
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 03 February 17 10:00 GMT (UK)
BCameron,

If you are finding it so difficult to find out the birth place of your grandfather, it makes me wonder how those processing your application will be able to confirm that the information you are providing is accurate. If you don't know which John Cameron is your grandfather, how would anyone else know?

It is possible that if you had known your grandfather, and he had told you that he was born in Glasgow (which looks possible as per Isobel's finds), as that is where he believes he was born, when in actual fact he may have been born in a nearby parish, then he may have been wrong. Happens quite often.

Do you know if your grandfather left a will? A death certificate may be included with the will, and may name his place of birth. (fingers crossed that it tells you the town rather than simply "Scotland")

Added:
JM, we all love your verbose replies. You always have something are very interesting and entertaining to say. :-*
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: BCameron on Friday 03 February 17 10:06 GMT (UK)
The surname Saith is very unusual in Scotland and ScotlandsPeople only has a handful of BMD. However if you put Saith in as a first name it brings up a number of entries of Camerons with middle name Saith ( including the person I assume is your father) This is such an unusual name combination that I feel there has to be a link with your family.
Of note are the birth entries for the following-
Janet Saith Cameron born 1930 Gorbals Glasgow
James Saith Cameron born 1932 Gorbals/ St Rollex Glasgow
With these in mind i think the 1934 entry for John Cameron in Gorbals may be the one you are looking for. Also the entry number is very high ( in the thousands) which would suggest that the entry is for a birth late in the year which would fit your known date of birth.
Isobel

Wow thank you that makes a lot of sense! That seems right, I had estimated that he may be that John Cameron so that seems to confirm it!

Thanks everyone for your help on this - it's also interesting to know Saith is unusual name in Scotland!
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Ruskie on Friday 03 February 17 10:17 GMT (UK)
Can you do a cross check for your grandfather's death, parents named on the index or d/c, and the parents of the John Cameron found by Isobel?

Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Skoosh on Friday 03 February 17 10:48 GMT (UK)
Is this the name "Seath?"


Skoosh.
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: isobelw on Friday 03 February 17 10:57 GMT (UK)
The easiest way to confirm it is the right one is to purchase the 1955 marriage that the poster already knows is correct and the 1934 Gorbals birth. If the parents match then he will know it is the correct birth and will then have the correct place of birth.
Isobel
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Rosinish on Friday 03 February 17 12:06 GMT (UK)
Is this the name "Seath?"

Skoosh, yes it's a variant Saith/Seath like Bethune/Beaton.

I love when 'old' spellings are continued in recent times as it makes light work for research  ;)

Annie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 04 February 17 00:03 GMT (UK)
Another thought .... If your father has siblings, can you ask them if they know their father's place of birth? Although you say you don't think your father will support you applying for British Citizenship, you could try asking him too?  :-\ (though he may not know with 100% certainty).

I am surprised that you have to supply details of grandparents when applying for British Citizenship. I thought  that a parent being born in The UK would have been the only requirement.

Anyway, you now know which documentation you need to obtain his b/c so good luck with it.

Added: One of the Scottish experts will correct me if I am wrong, but I think Paisley is (or was) both a district and a town, and it may be acceptable to say you were born in "Glasgow" if you were born in Paisley these days as the Glasgow suburbs have gradually swallowed it up. :-\
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 04 February 17 01:41 GMT (UK)
Ruskie,

To my belief, Paisley (District) is in the County of Renfrew(shire) which borders Glasgow (City).

Annie
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: Ruskie on Saturday 04 February 17 03:47 GMT (UK)
Thanks Annie. As a local, you should know.  ;) :)

A bit off topic, but I know with some of the bigger cities like London and Birmingham, what used to be villages on the outskirts, are now part of the city ... for example, I think it is now called Greater London whereas it used to be that London was "the city", the central area, with Middlesex surrounding it. Today if someone was born miles from The City, say in Hammersmith, they would probably simplify it and just say they were born in London.

Not such a consideration when the OP's father was born, as most babies were born at home, but it could be that if born in a hospital or in a relative's home, then the registration district might not be their usual abode.

Once again, the address should be given on the certificate so not important in this case, but just something to be aware of when considering the district someone's birth was registered in.  :)
Title: Re: John Cameron: Birth Place - Help Please!
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 05 February 17 10:43 GMT (UK)
Hi All

BCameron, just some notes from my own personal experience. My husband and me were both born abroad to British parents. Both our fathers happened to be working abroad for a number of years. UK visa and immigration rules have changed enormously over the years. You are right, you do need to give much more detail to your right to UK visas and nationality than you ever have before. This includes details on grandparents as the requirements now go further back up the ancestry line.

When I applied for my children's first passports, details on grandparents (maternal and paternal) were required including place of birth. Where you have a surname like Cameron, it can be hard to pinpoint details. However, lots of info has already been mentioned here:

You have the Gorbal births including the one for a John in 1934 (the reference to the Janet Seath Cameron birth in 1930 there makes this a possibity). You have an exact birth date for him in 1934 which is a big help.

Jamjar mentioned above the precise reference for you grandfather John's marriage to Patricia Falon.
in 1955.

You have your father's birth cert which gives confirmation of his parents' marriage.

I would say you have enough there to state your details on him on a form. Regardless of what you put down on the form, it will always have to be verified independently by authorities. They won't just take what you put down on the form as fact. You will be able to give them the details so that they can use these to view official records at the Scottish General Register Office - www.nrscotland.gov.uk  This is standard practice really.

If you do want to trace your father's genealogy back, then do work through the details on your Cameron/Falon grandparents. Finding John Cameron's parents' names from that 1955 marriage will let you work back to that marriage and family details etc...

Monica  :)