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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: lavender123 on Saturday 04 February 17 08:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi trying to get some information on William Simmons age 34 and Jane Simmons age 33 1851 census deptford he was a clerk apparently . Their son Frederick Simmons age 4 married a lady Mary Ann hamann . I wanted to get some background info on William Simmons and maybe Jane if possible. Thankyou.
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In 1851 William's mother in law is listed as Jane Cordell so this likes William and Jane's marriage which is online on Anc
Bride Jane Albina Cordell
Groom William Simmons Brass Founder
Marriage 9 June 1844 St Mary, Islington
Fathers William Cordell - Carman and John Simmons - Brazier
Witnesses William George Cordell and Eliza Cordell
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trying to get some information on William Simmons age 34 and Jane Simmons age 33 1851 census deptford he was a clerk apparently
The William who married Jane CORDELL, is a Brass Finisher, not a Clerk? They're at:
1851: 92 Evelyn Street, Deptford - HO107 -Piece: 1584 / Folio: 670 /Pg5
Cheers
AMBLY
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I must admit at the moment I can't see a William who fits and is a Clerk :-\
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I must admit at the moment I can't see a William who fits and is a Clerk :-\
Could have changed career by the time of Frederick's marriage? I have come across someone who was in the bootmaking trade, then 10 years at the next census later he was a painter and decorator.
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I must admit at the moment I can't see a William who fits and is a Clerk :-\
Me neither ???
And furthermore......
MARRIAGE at St James the Great, Middlesex
Frederick SIMMONDS 25, Bachelor, Engine Cleaner
Married 8 Nov 1896, to Mary Ann HAMANN 25, Spinster
Both of 32 Mansford Street
Witness': Gertrude HAMMAN & Charles GREEN.
Her father: Peter HAMANN, deceased
His father: Frederick SIMMONDS, Foreman
Groom himself has signed as 'SIMMONDS', but there is a notation in margin (not quite sure what for), that spells his name as SIMMONS.
Perhaps OP can clarify who she is looking for - who is the certain, known point/ person? before we proceed too far down a wrong track! Is it the Frederick who married HAMMAN?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Yes this is the Frederick who married Mary Ann hamann, I am interested in Frederick Simmons father William Simmons and information would ne great.
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I have been informed last year that fredericks father was William don't know if their was another Simmons. If the groom signed the register as simmonds maybe he was not simmnons but simmonds and his father wasn't William. Any information doing some research for sons.
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Frederick simmonds senior , at the wedding of Frederick Simmons and Maryann hamann , any information on senior Frederick simmonds or Simmons. Thankyou.
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Hi Lavender123,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=506581.0
Old topic 2011: which also mentioned, that on the marriage cert to Mary Ann HAMANN , that Frederick's father was also named Frederick, occupation "Foreman". Frederick jnr and his wife Mary Ann in 1901 are in West Ham and his pob is given as "Gravesend, Kent" about 1870.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664300.0
Old topic 2013: Again, this topic also mentioned, your Frederick's father was also named Frederick from his marriage to Mary Ann HAMANN. I think this topic, when it was merged with another - is where the name (William?) and occupation (Clerk) confusion has arisen for Frederick's father, too.
I'm not saying this family below is the right one, but it looks promising enough to at least pursue and see what transpires:
1871: 8 Terrace Court, Gravesend Kent
RG10 Piece 890 / Folio 45 / Pg 22
Head: Fredrick SIMMONS 33, Labourer, b Ilsley, Berkshire
Wife: Sarah SIMMONS 34, b Darlaston, Staffordshire
Dau: Mary SIMMONS 10, Walbrook, Staffordshire,
Dau: Sarah Ann SIMMONS 7, Pensnett, Staffordshire,
Dau: Julia SIMMONS 5, b Battersea Park, Surrey
Dau: Elizabeth SIMMONS 3, b Battersea Park, Surrey
Son: Frederick SIMMONS 5 mths, b Gravesend Kent
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks ambly for your help if Frederick senior census was 1872 that's shows he was born 1838/39 if his birth details would be on the census or thereabouts. Thanks.
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Hi Lavender123,
Well so far, I do think there is a fair to great chance, the Frederick SIMMON(D)S, father and son, found in 1871 Census I posted above, is your fellow. That family ended up in West Ham, Essex - where your Frederick was with his wife Mary Ann in 1901 and beyond.
The son Frederick in 1871 is the right age and place of birth (b 1870, b Gravesend), and right father's name (Frederick) - to match your Frederick b abt 1870 in Gravesend as per details his 1901 Census and 1896 marriage.
The father Frederick (b abt 1838) in the Census all the way through, is consistently a 'Labourer' or 'General Labourer'. However, that's a very common sort of occupation to be 'talked down' on Census whereas he could actually have been a 'Foreman' of a group of labourers, or conversely, a General Labourer could be talked up on a Marriage Cert, not uncommon either. I wouldn't discount this family due to that occupation 'discrepancy', anyway. Here are the details (you'll see the surname is either recorded with or without the 'D'):
1861: Chapel Street, Village of Coseley, Sedgley, Staffordshire
Head: Frederick SIMMONS 23, Gen Lab, bWest Ilsley, Berkshire
Wife: Sarah SIMMONS 24, b Darlaston, Staffs
Dau: Mary SIMMONS 11, b Sedgley, Staffs ( this likely meant to be 11mths, or 1 month, or 11 days, etc)
1871: At 8 Terrace Court, Gravesend
RG10 Piece 890 / Folio 45 / Pg 22
Head: Fredrick SIMMONS 33, Labourer, b Ilsley Berkshire
Wife: Sarah SIMMONS 34, b Darlaston, Staffordshire
Dau: Mary SIMMONS 10, Walbrook, Staffordshire,
Dau: Sarah Ann SIMMONS 7, Pensnett, Staffordshire,
Dau: Julia SIMMONS 5, b Battersea Park, Surrey
Dau: Elizabeth SIMMONS 3, b Battersea Park, Surrey
Son: Frederick SIMMONS 5 mths, b Gravesend Kent
1881: At 43 Benges Street, Canning Town, West Ham, Essex
RG11 - Piece - 1716 - Folio 15 - Pg 23
Head: Fredrick SIMMONDS 43, Gen Labourer, b West Ilsley Berkshire
Wife: Sarah SIMMONDS 43, b Darlaston, Staffordshire
Dau: Julia SIMMONDS 15, b Battersea, Surrey
Dau: Elizabeth SIMMONDS 13, b Battersea, Surrey
Dau: Frederick SIMMONDS 10, b Gravesend Kent
Dau: Ellen SIMMONDS 7, b Shornward, Kent
Dau: Edith SIMMONDS 1 mo, b Canning Town, Essex
1891: At 42 Benges Street, Canning Town, West Ham, Essex
RG12 - Piece 1318 - Folio 133 - Pg21
Head: Frederick SIMMONDS 53, Labourer, b Iisley, Berks
Wife: Sarah SIMMONDS 54, Laundress, b Darlaston, Staffordshire
Dau: Elizabeth SIMMONDS 23, unm, Laundress, b Battersea, London
Son: Frederick SIMMONDS 20, unm, b Gravesend, Kent
Dau: Edith SIMMONDS 10, Scholar, b West Ham Essex
1901 At 43 Benges Street, Canning Town, West Ham, Essex
RG13 - Piece 1581 - Folio: 164 - Pg 63
Head: Frederick SIMMONS 63, General Labourer, b West Ilsley, Berks
Dau: Elizabeth SIMMONS 33, unm, Laundress, b Battersea, London
Dau: Ellen SIMMONS 27, unm, Laundress, b Shorn Kent
Dau: Edith SIMMONS 10, Scholar, b West Ham Essex
Grandchild: Lily WHITTING 14, b West Ham, Essex
Cheers
AMBLY
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Looking at the Hamann side of the family that Ambley posted a link to above on a previous thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=506581.0
Since this original thread the General Record Office Birth Index also gives the mothers maiden and I think the list below are children of Peter and Mary Hamann with mother's maiden name listed at variations of Klaus/Claus
HAMANN, WILHELMINA CHRISTINE MARGARETTA Mothers Maiden Name KLAUS
1862 Sept Quarter MILE END OLD TOWN Vol 01C Page 49
HAMANN, PETER JOSEPH Mothers Maiden name CLOSE
1864 June Quarter MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 505
HAMANN, PAULINA Mother Maiden Name KLAUS
1866 March Quarter MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 558
Died 1867
HAMANN, SOPHIA WILHELMINA MARGARETHE Mothers maiden name CLAUS
1868 June Quarter WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 397
HAMANN, MARGRETHA Mothers Maiden Name CLANS
1870 June Quarter WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 386
HAMANN, MARIA GERTRUDE Mothers Maiden Name KLAUS
1878 March Quarter WHITECHAPEL Volume 01C Page 380
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Thanks AMBLY. Well there is a small problem last year I got the 1911 census from somebody on here and Harold simmons my husbands father was born 10/11/1907 at 22 hooper road custom house . London or Essex. Near Canning Town and West Ham , which makes Frederick Simmons junior 63 years old and there was more children in the family although when he lived at Canning Town . His wife seems to have died about 1900 because she is not on the 1901 census and Harold simmons was born 1907 there was a frank also other boys in the family very strange.
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Also Maryann hamann was married to Fredrick Simmons .junior Harold simmons and frank Simmons were fredericks sons where does hooper road come From? I think we have the right hamann and Simmons but if he was 63 in 1901 and had more children.as my husband has told me his father Harold had a lot of brothers maybe we have the wrong Frederick simmons