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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: finlib10 on Saturday 04 February 17 12:04 GMT (UK)
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Hi. Thanks for helping me with this request. My 3 greats grandfather John Charles TURNER b abt 1811 was transported to New South Wales in 1829 on the Mellish. He was transported with his older brother, William b 1808 I believe in Tamworth, Staffordshire. On his death certificate his parents are noted as William Turner and Margaret, formerly Rahiley or Reilly?? perhaps. It is very hard to read the surname on the certificate.
They were convicted on 19 March 1828 at Stafford Assizes for housebreaking, and sentenced to 20 years. A local newspaper reported the trial (Staffordshire Advertiser on 22nd March 1828). In 1929 they were transported to New South Wales and I doubt either ever saw Staffordshire again.
I am trying to understand more about their family in Staffordshire; confirm who their parents were and where they lived when John and William were charged. Unfortunately I have little further info about the family or their whereabouts. The brothers were cabinet locksmiths before their conviction and their shipping records reported they were protestants.
I'm wondering if there might be some local information that would illuminate details about their family and location before their transportation.
Thank you for helping.
Richard
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If John and William married in NSW, their marriage certificates would be a more reliable source of parent's names than their death certificates. Of course you would need to find out if that information was provided on m/cs when they married.
Have you found William's d/c to see what parent's names that gives?
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Hi Ruskie. Thanks for your response. I will refresh my efforts to find William's death certificate. It has evaded me for a long time, but I will go back and try again. Unfortunately William and John both were married while convicts in the early 1840s so the marriage records I have found do not include parent's names or locations. I will attempt to see if there are church records other than the marriages indexes. I have been able to only find limited information on William Turner and Elizabeth Holland's life after marriage. I'd be very interested in liaising with any other decedents of William and Elizabeth. However, because of the dead ends here, I turned to chasing information in Tamworth and Stafford, England to see if there is information in English records about their family and circumstances. Cheers Richard
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It is possible that the parents were still alive for the 1841 census, but the problem is with the name William Turner. There are so many of them in Staffordshire. :-\ It may be that their father was also a locksmith, which may help narrow it down a bit. :-\
Presumably you have collected all the information related to their convict lives, musters, pardons etc? I think that convict Indents sometimes give information about family members in the "remarks" column (I have seen this on Tasmanian Indents but unsure about NSW).
If you post a section of the writing including the difficult to decipher mother's name, we can offer our opinions as to what it might be.
Have you looked for Turner/Reilly marriage in Staffordshire? :-\
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http://Hi again Ruskie and thanks for your comments:
1. 1841 Census. Yes a lot of William Turners. Looking through that list again and will look for Locksmiths.
2. NSW convict docs. Have researched those with no real extra info. Am going to go back through each again though just to be sure.
3. Turner/Reilly marriage in Staffordshire. Yes have been searching for that but no luck yet. Maybe they married elsewhere and then moved to Staffordshire??
4. Clarifying the Mother's name on death certificate. I will attach the certificate once I work out how Ruski.
Cheers
Richard
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I did wonder if William and Margaret may have married elsewhere, possibly even Ireland, if her surname is Reilly. Finding them on a census may help if it gave their places of birth ...
sorry, I can't think of anything else to suggest. :-\
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Is there a particular reason for believing William was born in Tamworth?
From the newspaper article appears that William had two previous convictions, and each of his crimes seem to have been carried out in Wednesfield / Wolverhampton area.
Also worth mentioning that John Charles is referred to simply as John.
A newspaper search is bringing up the death notice for "WILLIAM TURNER, late of Wolverhampton, in the county of Stafford, Cabinet Locksmith" in September 1820, but when I click through to the actual newspaper I cant find it. :-\
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The Staffordshire Advertiser of 1 September 1827 (page 4) records that William Turner, John Turner and George Hill were committed to the county gaol for breaking into the dwelling house of William Hardwick of Tettenhall and stealing therefrom four one-pound promissory notes and a large quantity of wearing apparel.
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From the newspaper article appears that William had two previous convictions, and each of his crimes seem to have been carried out in Wednesfield / Wolverhampton area.
All of the Turners I can find in in the 1841-1861 censuses with the occupation of cabinet locksmith are in or from the Wolverhampton area. The only two I can find in 1841 are both in Wednesfield (one is a William aged 20 so this may not be helpful).
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Is there a particular reason for believing William was born in Tamworth?
I just checked the convict indent which records that Tamworth is the "native place" for both William and John Turner. William's occupation is "brass cabinet locksmith 5 years" while John's is simply "locksmith".
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Based on the dates, location of Tamworth & father William, there are these baptisms, although the mother is Mary rather than Margaret:
Tamworth, St Editha
08 May 1808 – William s/o William & Mary
17 Mar 1811 – John s/o William & Mary
23 Aug 1812 – Henry s/o William & Mary – buried 11 Sep 1812
Also possibly one of William's previous offences:
Staffordshire Advertiser 18 March 1826
William Turner aged 18 for breaking into the dwelling house of Samuel Mincher at Wednesfield on 12th February and stealing one silk gown, two pair of sheets, and other articles. Guilty. Against Mary Elkes, charged with the same offence, no bill was found.
Also possibly this?
Calendar of Prisoners at Quarter Sessions
1825 Michaelmas Session – William Turner aged 17. Location of Crime: Wolverhampton
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There is also this, don't know if connected, can't see a date
John Turner
Occupation Locksmith
Age 16
Birth town Tamworth, Staffordshire
Entry number 3134
Series ADM6
Source Description book of convicts in the hulk 'Ganymede', moored at Chatham, 1814-1831
Piece number 422 Folio number 13
England & Wales, Crime, Prisons & Punishment, 1770-1935
The records in series ADM6. They relate to convicts held in prison hulks Cumberland, Dolphin and Ganymede. Hulks were ships used as floating prisons, often when they were no longer fit for battle but were still afloat. Records for the period 1818-1831.
The record just states his physical description.
Cas
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A newspaper search is bringing up the death notice for "WILLIAM TURNER, late of Wolverhampton, in the county of Stafford, Cabinet Locksmith" in September 1820
It's not a death notice - it's notice of an an insolvent debtor's petition hearing.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17636/page/1814
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This is from an 1818 directory
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah154/shaun52/TurnerCabinet%20Locksmith%201818_zpsnun0ftyh.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/shaun52/media/TurnerCabinet%20Locksmith%201818_zpsnun0ftyh.jpg.html)
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There's an intriguing baptism record on Familysearch:
Sarah Turner
Baptism Date: 13 Feb 1854
Baptism Place: Wednesbury, Stafford, England
Father: Gulielmi Turner
Mother: Margaritae Reilly
The latinised parents' names suggest a RC baptism. No indication of her age in the transcription
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1XK-K2X
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A newspaper search is bringing up the death notice for "WILLIAM TURNER, late of Wolverhampton, in the county of Stafford, Cabinet Locksmith" in September 1820
It's not a death notice - it's notice of an an insolvent debtor's petition hearing.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/17636/page/1814
No wonder I couldn't find it! The headline in the preview was 'Died', so that's where I looked ::)
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No wonder I couldn't find it! The headline in the preview was 'Died', so that's where I looked ::)
Yes I was flummoxed too - then I realised that the style didn't match the death notices. The debtor petition notices are a couple of columns to the right of the deaths.
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Wow. I'm blown away at the number of responses to my query. Really appreciative and excited that the comments will lead me to uncover very useful information about the family. This morning I received some further information from the Victorian State Library here. The librarian has searched the hospital records for John Charles Turner one of the two brothers transported. This internal hospital record states that his mother was May Wright. This contrasts to the information on his death certificate stating his mother was Margaret Rahiley (Reilly perhaps).
His birthplace was again listed as Tamworth Staffordshire and his father as William. (See transcript below). I have begun searching for the marriage of May Wright and William Turner but no luck yet.
Thanks for your help
Richard
Copy of transcript for John Turner:
Name: Turner. John
Occupation: Labourer
Birthplace: Tamworth,Staffordshire England
Age when admitted: 77
Parents names: Father: Turner. William, Labourer Mother: Wright. May
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Just a small point. When written Margt, Mary and May can look similar.
Do you have a copy of the document which names his mother as May? It could be worth getting a second opinion on what is written.
As that information was presumably given by John himself, then you would expect it to be accurate, however accents and what the person who filled in the forms believed John said, need to be considered.
I might be trying to make this fit, but I can see there could be a similarity between the spoken Wright and Reilly/Rahiley.
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Thanks Jomot for those baptism records. The dates seem to match. Interestingly John named one of his children "Henry" but that might not mean anything given how common the names in question were at the time.
One question: I take it there would be no birth certificates for those children that I could write for. Registration through BDMs came much later. Am I correct. Would there be further information in the church records other than what you found in your data base? Did you find the baptisms in Family Search, Jonot.
Also I mentioned John Turner's middle name was Charles. That was reported on his wife's death certificate.
Cheers Richardll
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Can anyone explain how I could upload the document showing Margaret Rahiley's name on the death certificate please?
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The baptisms are available on familysearch, there are possibly others. These are for parents William/Mary in Tamworth.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jg0/. Also http://www.freereg.org.uk/search_queries/new
Civil Registration did not start until 1 July 1837 in England/Wales
Cas
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Can anyone explain how I could upload the document showing Margaret Rahiley's name on the death certificate please?
This may help, usually a cropped portion of doc is posted.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=693999.msg5377444#msg5377444
Cas
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You can't upload an image to this thread because the functionality isn't available on look-up boards.
The image I posted earlier (reply #14) is rendered via Photobucket code. You can upload an image to Photobucket (or a similar photo sharing site) then paste the image code into a message.
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There is a marriage for William Turner & Mary Wright on 15 Oct 1798 at Kingsbury, which is about 6 miles from Tamworth. You will need to sign in to Familysearch to see the image but it looks to me as if it has 'mistake' written next to it, although I think that may just refer to the number in the register, which has been altered. Witnesses were Robert Turner & Thomas Myling, although the latter was a witness to all others on the page.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6PZZ-LSP?mode=g&i=43&cc=1462403
I've checked the additional Tamworth baptisms provided by Cas, but no further clues unfortunately.
23 Jun 1799 Robert s/o William & Mary Turner, Hopwas
25 May 1801 Sarah d/o William & Mary Turner, Coton
10 Jul 1803 Elizabeth d/o William & Mary Turner
A Robert Turner aged 52 was buried Tamworth 10 Apr 1850, but I've no idea if its the same Robert who was baptised to William & Mary in 1799.