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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: melbatoast40 on Saturday 04 February 17 22:44 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone know if this is gaelic or latin? And where I might be able to get the whole Sasine translated for a reasonable fee.
Thank you
Cheers
Melodie
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Looks like Latin to me. (though I really shouldn't be given my opinion on such matters as I have no knowledge on the subject). ;)
There may be someone here who can have a try at translating this for you as there are some latin speaking rootschatters ....
Added: Have you tried googling to see if there is an online translator for Latin?
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It's a document from 1784 the twenty fourth year of the reign of George III (Vigesimo quarto regnii Georgi Tertius). I can see reference to a subscription by a Notary Public and to a Precept of Sasine ( a document by which a feudal superior might authorise his agent or factor to give possession of his property to someone else, and to a vicecomitatus who was a sheriff, but you need someone with better Latin to explain the rest of it.
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If you post it here in sections, the elves will probably translate it for you.
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It's a document from 1784 the twenty fourth year of the reign of George III (Vigesimo quarto regnii Georgi Tertius).
Definitely Latin.
However I read it as the twenty-fourth day of March in the twenty-seventh year of the reign of George III. ".... die vigesimo quarto ...." and ".... anno vigesimo septimo...."
It mentions Peter Thomson, Gardener at Hayfield but most of the rest of it is formal language and tells me nothing useful. ".... George III by the Grace of God king of Great Britain France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith ...." etc etc.
Though I am uncertain of the implications of 'Tanquam vicecomes in hac parte de vicecomitatis de Edinburgh' which literally translates along the lines of 'in the capacity of sheriff in that part of the sheriffdom of Edinburgh', I think. Is it possible that Peter Thomson, as well as being a gardener, could be a sheriff?
I might be able to decipher a bit more of it if I saw the whole document but if you want a full translation including all the formal stuff you should be able to find someone able to do it via http://www.asgra.co.uk/
For the avoidance of duplication by RootsChatters, see the related thread at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764500.0
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Thank you all; I have the whole document. I will check with the source you gave me I just have a few questions, I hoping to find the answers in the document. I will post it here as well, I'm really hoping it has information at his children births when, where? His wife where the met?
I will try and attach some more.
Thank you
Melba
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Thank you all; I have the whole document. I will check with the source you gave me I just have a few questions, I hoping to find the answers in the document. I will post it here as well, I'm really hoping it has information at his children births when, where? His wife where the met?
If he is really mentioned only in the capacity of a sheriff it is not likely to contain family information.
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Is it not likely to be a property transfer document of some sort? As Forfarian says, the property may be mentioned later in the document. The description is usually preface words to the effect of 'All & Whole'...not sure what this is in latin....
His wife where the met?
That's very hopeful ...do any documents ever tell you this ::) ::) ???
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Here is page 1 and 2; page 1 is the full page of the early clip. I 'm hoping for information on his children James, Agnes, Helen or his wife Celecia and any information about India. I hoping to find out how old the kids are or when they were born or where. Or any information about the purchases of his property of any mention of relatives. There are twelve pages in total.
Thanks again all
Melba
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Sorry, but I cannot read it because it's too small and if I try to enlarge it it goes out of focus.
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As Forfarian has said, you will need to download a bigger file so that it is readable, as these images pixelate when enlarged.
You are allowed up to 500KB for each image.
Some info here about attachments if you haven't seen it
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
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Here is page 1 and 2; page 1 is the full page of the early clip. I 'm hoping for information on his children James, Agnes, Helen or his wife Celecia and any information about India. I hoping to find out how old the kids are or when they were born or where. Or any information about the purchases of his property of any mention of relatives. There are twelve pages in total.
Thanks again all
Melba
While there might be something mentioned about his family, it's doubtful it will have the level of detail you're looking for.
The National Records of Scotland have an information page on sasines at www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/sasines, and it has this to say on what can normally be found in an entry:
"The basic structure of a sasine is straightforward. It will begin with the date, and thereafter sets out the principal parties (usually with the grantee/buyer named first), the type of transaction, including the land involved, the precise time that it took place, and the names of the witnesses."
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I 'm hoping for information on his children James, Agnes, Helen or his wife Celecia and any information about India. I hoping to find out how old the kids are or when they were born or where. Or any information about the purchases of his property of any mention of relatives.
If he was in fact 'in the capacity of sheriff ....' there may not be any information at all about him.
I have never seen a sasine that gave the date of birth of anyone. The nearest I've seen to that is a sasine that talks about Robert Howie, a minor - in other words he was under the age of 21 on the date of the sasine.
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I 'm hoping for information on his children James, Agnes, Helen or his wife Celecia and any information about India. I hoping to find out how old the kids are or when they were born or where.
Sorry, but question time :)
Have you already looked for baptisms in the early parish registers on ScotlandsPeople?
Do you actually mean Cecelia for Peter's wife's name? Easy finger slip to make if so ;D.
What do you already know about a connection to India?
Josey
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Win 10 users open the attachments it up in your photo app (the mountain thingy) click on edit (top right) then enhance the file enough to read it.
Don
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Lands of Hayfield were sold by public roup at the British Coffee House, Edinburgh on Wednesday, July 28th 1784 between 5 and 6 in the afternoon. Hayfield consisted of those lands in West/Mid Calder 16 miles from Edinburgh with superiority over the lands of Tolcross in St. Cuthbert's. You could decline the superiority and bid only on Hayfield.
The advertisement goes on and on but it was substantial in size, the mains laid on 120 acres and it had suitable offices. Archibald Todd the writer identified so I assume he will be named on your Sasine.
Interesting it had been on the market since at least 1793 and in 1770 Archibald Todd is the executor in the 1770 Directory of Landownership of Scotland.
However, on Wednesday 16 November 1795 its back on the market and Archibald Todd is once again in charge.
So either Mr. Thomson failed to met the obligations of the contract (Sasine) and the deal fell through or this is not the same Hayfield. I spotted 3 others that were for sale during this period. Inverness, Renfrew and Dumfries all were sold at the British Coffee House. So matter where the property laid it would have been executed in Edinburgh. The description within your Sasine will clarify this.
Caledonian Mercury is the source.
Don
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I have been wondering about the description "Petrus Thomson apud Hayfield". The Latin word 'apud' means 'at'.
In most Scottish sources the word 'of' (Latin 'de') indicates the owner of a piece of land. 'In' implies that the person was normally resident there, but did not own it. 'At' implies temporary or relatively short-term residence.
If the writer who drafted this sasine stuck to similar usage, it might suggest that Peter Thomson did not in fact occupy Hayfield House.
Also, if the sasine is from the 27th year of the reign of George III, it post-dates that sale in 1784 by about three years.
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I had the opportunity today to take a look at the Abridgment of this Sasine. It says, "James Pitullo of Hayfield, Seised, Mar 24, 1787, in Hayfield, comp Wester Hairburnhead, Easter Hairburnhead, Middlemuir of Hairburnhead, Haymains and Blackhill, par West Calder and Mid Calder; part of Towcorse or Tollcross etc, par St Cuthberts; on Ch Resig G S, Feb 3 1787. PR 307.264."
The abridgments usually contain a brief description of the land involved, and tell you who acquired the land, and from whom. This one is unusual in that it does not say from whom James Pitullo acquired it. More to the point, there is no mention of Peter Thomson in the abridgment.
I also discussed this document with a Latin-literate archivist. He agrees with my interpretation of the words 'apud' and 'tanquam'. In other words, that Peter Thomson was probably some sort of intermediary in this transaction, not one of the principals involved in the change of ownership.
There is a later sasine, dated 14 January 1796, in which ownership of the same lands passed to Alexander Young WS. They are described as "the fourth part of Over Williamstone called Wester Hairburnhead, Easter Hairburnhead, Middlemuir of Hairburnhead, fourth part of Over Williamstone called Haymains, and part of the Barony of Marjoribanks called Blackhill, all of which lands are now called Hayfield".
So it looks as if Hayfield may have been a name bestowed relatively recently on part of what was once an estate of four times the size.
I got a bit lost after that because the 1796 sasine refers to one in Kirkcudbright in (I think) 1795. I am at a loss to explain why a sasine in Kirkcudbright is relevant to one in Midlothian, and I couldn't find the Kirkcudbright abridgment anyway as you need a name to locate them and it didn't show up under either Young or Pitullo.
I have been told of two researchers who are skilled at making transcriptions and translations of Latin documents. If you want their names please let me know.
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I presume you have not found a testament or inventory for Peter Thomson. Gardeners are mentioned in newspapers from time to time at that period, so you might find something about his activities there. If you knew his employer, there might be estate papers with further details. I'm pretty sure there are records of friendly societies for gardeners in various parts of Scotland at that time, so there might be some mention of him there.
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Melanie, I have just re-read this and your other thread and realised that you have never explicitly said that it is Peter Thomson you are interested in. Nor have you told us how you know the names of his wife and children. You say you have 'his' will but you don't say what his name is; I have not found a will in the Scottish indexes that seems to match this Peter Thomson. So have we all been barking up the wrong tree?
We're trying to help but without all the relevant information. It's like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing. So:
- Is it Peter Thomson who is of interest to you?
- If not, who is it?
- How do you know the name of his wife?
- How do you know the names of his children?
- Where did you find his will?
- When and where did he die?
- How did you get the copy of this sasine?
- Why do you think the sasine is relevant?
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A gentleman from ASGRA has referred me to a lady that might be able to help. I'll let you know what she says.
Thank again for all the help.
Mel
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Hi Everyone;
Sorry I guess I should have mentioned that I'm looking for information on my 6x great grandfather James Pittullo. I have a copy of his Will and Testament where he names Cecilia as the mother of his children, a few family members and some connections to India, I have also found a record of him as a ship Captain in FIBIS, but other than a few tidbits here and there I'm at a loss. I have checked Scotlandspeople, Scotland places, familysearch.org, ancestry, findmy past, and I can't find anything on the birth of the children. I'm guessing they were born in India, because I can't find anything. I have found a few documents on his son James that mention that his father was a Captain, but there are so many holes.
As to the articles from British Newpapers, I have found the same articles, the best I can figure is there are three Hayfields, one in Mid Calders (mine), a smaller place east of Edinburgh near haddington, and the one near Argll I think it was. My Hayfield was purchased in 1787 and sold in 1795 just before my 6x great grandfather died as he stated in his Will and testament. He died on Oct 3 1795 in Dalkeith as statement in a Gentleman Magazine.
I hope this information helps. I will try and resize the sheets one at a time.
Most of the documents I have are from the NRS or Scotlandpeople. I was hoping that the Sasine might have some answers, but its looking doubtful as this document from the sound of it is more of a bill of sale type thing.
Thank again
Melba
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Ok lets try these, I had to stay under the 900kb for both.
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Let this present public instrument be open to see and let it be known that in the 1787th year from the incarnation of the Lord on the 24th day of March and in the 27th year of the reign of our sovereign lord George III by the Grace of God King of Great Britain, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, in the presence of me, notary public, and the undersigned witnesses on the ground of the lands specified within there appeared Peter Thomson gardener at Hayfield as sheriff in this part of the Sheriffdom of Edinburgh in accordance with the precept of sasine contained in the charter after mentioned and inserted within, specially appointed for the purpose afterwards specified, and in the same place also appeared Charles Clark messenger at Edinburgh as attorney for and in name of James Pittullo Esquire, lately from the East Indies, then of Coats in the Sheriffdom of Fife, whose power of attorney was clearly established to me, notary public, and to the undersigned witnesses, the said attorney having and holding in his hands a charter of resignation under the seal to be kept according to the Treaty of Union and used in Scotland in stead and place of the Great Seal of Scotland, ordered, written and sealed as in the specific precept of sasine inserted within, by which charter our sovereign lord the King aforementioned with the advice and consent of the chief baron and the other barons of his Exchequer in that part of his kingdom of Great Britain called Scotland, has given, granted, disponed and for himself and for his royal successors in perpetuity confirmed to the said James Pittullo Esquire and his heirs or assignees whomsoever in heredity and irredeemably all and whole that quarter or fourth part of the lands of Over Williamstone called Wester Hairburnhead extending to two marklands and one markland all and whole the lands of Easter Hairburnhead and the lands of Middlemuir of Hairburnhead and that other quarter or fourth part of the said lands of Over Williamstone now called Hay Mains adjoining the said lands of Easter Hairburnhead on the eastern side of the same extending in whole to a forty shilling land of old extent as a proportional part.
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GR2 you are a star!! Thanks for translating the complete sasine.
Thanks melba for the background; it's good to know what resources you have consulted & what you know.
Josey
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GR2, now it makes sense.
After Forfarian’s post on the Abridgement showing individual lands under Blackhall it lists Arch Todd as the owner. I then found that Arch Todd, writer was the son of Arch Todd so Todd’s were the original owners. I also found a 1760 entry listing the Heritors of the county and Arch Todd of Hayfield is amongst them. So Pittullo acquired the lands from Todd.
This is what I found on Pittullo the other day,
Jan 1792 - To be let 4-5 years the house in Ely, Fife lately possessed by Mr. Pittullo of Hayfield
Sep 1795 - Corn & Stock incl. Equip. Sale - Household furniture shall be afterwards by roup.
Oct 1795 - James Pittullo died the morning of Saturday, October 3, 1795 in Dalkeith at this time he was living at Morham Mains.
Nov 1795 - Roup (Hayfield)
1803 – Will of James Pittullo is executed.
In his Will he appoints 3 Executors, likely one or more are son-in-law's. There is no mention of spouse so I will assume she predeceased him.
Melba, if you send me a PM with your email I will send the documentation above.
Don
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YES G2R you are a rockstar. I does confirm that he did own Coats, that he was late From East India, so now I can definitely confirm he was there. I'm posting pages three and four to see if they have anymore helpful information. Thank you.
Thank you all so much; you are all fabulous.
Melba
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I think the three men appointed were friends from East India, because I don't think his daughters were ever married. I have found on his daughter Agnes and Helen is that they died relatively young, Agnes died at the age of 21 at Baird 1796, but I think it is more like Bairn. She is buried in the same cemetery as her father as to Helen I found an article that said she died in London 1799, but it did not say her age. I have ordered a letter from the British Library written to her from A david something in India, but I do know that both articles did use Pittullo as the last name and stated that their late father was James Pittullo and no mention of husbands, unless I'm missing something.
As to Cecilia I don't think they were married and if they were it would probably have been in India, I did find a death for a Mrs. Pitullo relict of (blank) died in 1798 in Calton Hill.
I have found a lot of information, but the holes are so frustrating. In two years I hope to visit Scotland and London, and then maybe I can fill the holes...LOL
Thanks again everyone.
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... part of old extent corresponding to the whole barony of Calder which barony is forty pounds of lands of old extent and of which barony the said lands once were part but now have been disjoined from it with its houses, buildings, gardens, coal workings, mills, woods, fishings, mosses, moors, meadows, parts, pendicles and pertinents whatsoever of the whole lands above written with the respective seats in the kirks of West and Mid Calder and the burial places pertaining to them with the teind sheaves and other tithes great and small, rectory and vicarage, of all and whole the lands above mentioned and all lying within the parish of West Calder and the sheriffdom of Edinburgh except that quarter of the lands of Over Williamstone called Haymains which lies within the parish of Mid Calder and the foresaid sheriffdom. And also all and whole that part and portion of the lands and barony of Marjoribanks called the lands of Blackhill as they are bounded by the lands of Wester Hairburnhead on the east, the lands of Easter Torphin on the north, the lands of South Cobinshaw on the west and the lands of Carsewoodburn and Carsewoodhill on the south extending in all to two shillinglands of lands of old extent as a proportionate part of old extent congruent to the whole barony of Marjoribanks. Which six poundlands of lands of old extent and of which barony the said lands once were part but now have been disjoined from it with its houses, buildings, coal workings, mills, woods, fishings, mosses, moors, parts, pendicles and pertinents whatsoever of the lands above mentioned with the teind sheaves and other tithes, great and small, rectory and vicarage, of the said lands lying within the said parish of West Calder and sheriffdom aforesaid all which lands above specified are now called the Lands of Hayfield, and in the same way all and whole those two crofts of arable land of the lands of Towcorse alias Tollcross extending to nine acres of land or about lying outwith the West Port of the burgh of Edinburgh....
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GR2 thank you; you truly are amazing I have had these documents for almost a year and have struggled to find someone to help. Then I found this wonderful site and the worker elves are the best helpers.
I have included 5 and 6, after these there are 6 more pages if it's to much I understand you have already done so much.
Cheers.
Melba
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[of Edinburgh] bounded as follows, namely the northern croft having the King's road leading from the said West Port of Edinburgh to Gorgie Mill on the south, the public road which leads from the said West Port to Coltbridge on the north, the lands of Dalry on the west and the western sides of the said roads leading to Coltbridge and Gorgie Mill on the east And the southern croft of the same having the King's road leading from the said West Port to the said Gorgie Mill on the north, the lands of Wrightshouses on the south, and that large orchard once pertaining to the heirs of the late John Lawrie burgess of Edinburgh on the east, as the said two crofts have been possessed by the present feuars, tenants and possessors of the same together with that dwelling house on the said northern croft built by the late Patrick Brown, flesher, burgess of Edinburgh, fore and back, under and over with all the pertinents lying in the parish of St Cuthbert and the sheriffdom foresaid. Also that barn and garden pertaining to the same with the houses built therin lying without the said West Port of Edinburgh bounded as follows, namely with the lands pertaining to the heirs of the late John Stephenson, maltster, on the east and south, facing the said great orchard of the heirs of the late John Lawrie on the west and facing the public road leading to Wrightshouses on the south lying within the said parish and sheriffdom foresaid And also all and whole the tithes, both rectory and vicarage, of the said two crofts of arable land of Towcorse alias Tollcross and their pertinents And he decreed and ordained that one single sasine be taken up now and for all time to come by the said James Pittullo and his foresaids at the dwelling place of Hayfield or whatever part of the ground of the land of the crofts, houses, barns, gardens and others above mentioned by the handing over of earth and stone of some part of the said lands or crofts before mentioned without the necessity of any other tokens.
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Thank you GR2
Here are 7&8
Cheers
Melba
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or formalities whatsoever the sasine shall be equally valid and sufficient for the said whole lands, crofts, houses, barns, granaries, gardens, tithes and others before mentioned with their pertinents and for the whole parts and pendicles of the same as if a particular sasine had been taken for each individual particular part and portion of the same Therefore and not withstanding that the said lands, crofts, houses, barns, gardens, tithes and others afore written lie in different jurisdictions and could require separate sasines and despite everything that could be objected to the contrary, our sovereign lord the King with advice and counsel aforesaid for himself and his royal successors has dispensed in perpetuity accordingly as is contained at greater length in the said charter, which charter containing the said precept of sasine the aforesaid attorney for the forenamed sheriff specially appointed in this part as aforesaid exhibited and offered humbly requiring that he should proceed to the execution of his office of sheriff entrusted to him by the same precept, which desire the foresaid sheriff seeing would be just, took the said charter in his hands and handed it to me, notary public, to be read through, made public, and explained in our common language to the witnesses standing by, which was done by me, and the tenor of which precept of sasine contained in the said charter follows in these words - To the sheriff and his bailies of Edinburgh and to our beloveds, to each of you conjunctly and individually, to our sheriffs of the sheriffdom of Edinburgh in this part specially appointed greetings. We instruct and command you to see to it that sasine is justly given without delay to the foresaid James Pittullo or his certain attorney, the bearer of these presents, of all and single the foresaid lands, crofts, houses, gardens, barns, tithes and others above disposed with all their pertinents lying as before stated according to the form and tenor of our foresaid charter which he has of us and the foresaid dispensations And in no way omit to do this
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Wow Thank you GR2
Here are 9 & 10,
Thank you so much I really appreciated it.
Cheers
Melba
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to any of you jointly and severally our aforementioned sheriffs of the sheriffdom of Edinburgh in this part we entrust the power In testimony of which we have commanded our seal to be kept in terms of the Treaty of Union and used in Scotland in stead and place of the Great Seal of Scotland to be attached to this our present charter before witnesses our beloved Lord Frederick Campbell our Clerk Register, Thomas Miller of Glenlee Esquire our Justice Clerk and Sir James Erskine baronet, Director of our Chancellery, at Edinburgh on the third day of the month of February in the year of our Lord 1787 and in the 27th year of our reign written to the Seal and registered the twenty second day of March 1787 Signed Alexander Watson Depute, sealed at Edinburgh the twenty second day of March one thousadnd seven hundred and eighty seven years Signed John Wauchope Depute £12 Scots
After the reading, making public and explanation of which charter and precept of sasine above inserted therein the named sheriff foresaid in this part by virtue of the said charter and precept of sasine and clause of dispensation foresaid gave, handed over and justly made to have hereditary state and sasine and also corporal, actual and real possession of all and singular the foresaid lands, crofts, houses, tithes and others above written with all their pertinents lying as present to the foresaid James Pittullo by the handing over of earth and stone of the ground of the foresaid Lands of Hayfield in the hands of the said attorney present in person and taking sasine in the name of the said James Pittullo according to the form and tenor of the foresaid charter, precept of sasine contained therein and inserted above and the clause of dispensation above mentioned at all and singular the named attorney in name of the foresaid
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Last two the last page is only a half page.
Thank you so much GR2
Melodie
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asked and required of the notary public this present public instrument or more that were necessary to be made of what had been acted, done and said on the ground of the said Lands of Hayfield and at the manor place of the same by virtue of the clause of dispensation foresaid between the hours of one and two p.m. on the day of the month and years of our Lord and of the King's reign respectively mentioned above, there being present in the same place George Clapperton writer in Edinburgh and Andrew Purdie legitimate son of Robert Purdie tenant in Hayfield as witnesses specially asked and requested to the premises. I John Young, clerk of the diocese of Edinburgh and notary public by royal authority and admitted by the Lords of Council and Session according to the tenor of the act of parliament, was personally present together with the above named witnesses at the premises all and singular while they thus happened, were said, were acted and were done and I saw, knew and heard the premises all and singular thus done and said, and I took a note and therefrom made this present public instrument faithfully written by another's hand on this and the five preceding pages and put into this form of public instrument and I have signed and subscribed with my usual and customary name and surname in faith, corroboration and testimony of the truth of all and singular the premises as asked and requested. John Young N(otary) P(ublic) George Clapperton witness Andrew Purdie witness.
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Well done GR2, that is a real tour de force. Melbatoast sure owes you for all that :)
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Hear! hear! Forfarian.
I have been following this post with interest.
Great work GR2 :)
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Unfortunately there is little of a genealogical nature in it. Where sasines are more useful is if land is being passed down through a family, especially in connection with a marriage settlement. There is no index to witnesses to sasines or to precepts of sasines. They can be very useful, especially in the 17th century, stating that a witness is the third legitimate son of so and so or mentioning occupations and residences.
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Thank you so much GR2 I really appreciate your help. It did help I now have more information then I did before about the properties, it also confirmed that he travelled to East India.
I bow to you; you are a STAR!!!
Thank you
Melba.