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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: bigmagicdog on Monday 06 February 17 16:02 GMT (UK)
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Greetings all. Have been away working a while so my research has been rare. However I made an enquiry about the above person some time back and as a result of the help received. The original query was that he is shown on 1901 & 1911 census as living with his grandmother Isabella Andrews widowed and 1911 still with her only this time she had remarried and been widowed again under the name of Mason. I obtained Abram's birth certificate and it gave his parents as Frederick Briton Liddle (1858-1939) and Mary Atkinson (1859-1927) who in 1901 lived at 164 Burbank Street, West Hartlepool and Isabella lived at 86 Burbank. In 1911 Fred and Mary now lived 48 Benson Street and Isabella at 5 Hilda Street. Fred's parents were John Liddle and Ann Hill whilst Mary's parents were Robert Atkinson and Ann Carr. What I am trying to find out is how come Abram is listed as a grandchild when Isabella Andrews's maiden name was PROUD. I cannot find any surnames to marry up with Isabella's to make Abram her grandchild. Will appreciate all help.
Many thanks for reading this missive.
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When and where did Frederick Britton Liddle and Mary get married? Just wondering if Mary was previously married?
Frederick was born Pickering Yorkshire 1858 as per Family Search and was the illegitimate son of Ann Liddle
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Possible marriage is Frederick Liddle & Mary Atkinson, Dec qtr 1877 Hartlepool.
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You haven't linked to a previous thread, but was the child Abram Andrew Liddle or Abram Andrews Liddle?
I see that Isabella had a son Abram (Abraham) Andrews. Could he have been the natural father of young Abram perhaps? Curious given the details you have from the birth certificate. ???
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Sorry avm228 the original link was
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695747.msg5392683#msg5392683
and the marriage is confirmed between Fred and Mary Atkinson. I have the birth certificate of Abram Andrew Liddle which confirms his parents as above. Isabella's son Abram Andrews was born 1874 which is an interesting point as that would make him a grandson of Isabella. On the census returns the family of Fred & Mary list their other children but not Abram, as he was with Isabella but I noticed that on other trees all the other children are listed belonging to Fred & Mary but they do not have a record of Abram. This would mean Abram Andrews had an affair with Mary Liddle nee Atkinson when she was aged 38 and he was 23. Possible but no way to confirm.
Agree with you CaroleW Fred was born two years before the marriage which I have as between John Liddle and Ann Hill and just to confuse me even more the name Snarey keeps cropping up amongst the Liddle's.
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Fred was born two years before the marriage which I have as between John Liddle and Ann Hill and just to confuse me even more the name Snarey keeps cropping up amongst the Liddle's.
Fred's mother was Ann Liddle - single so where does Ann Hill come from?
Fred was born Pickering and there is an 1861 entry for Frederick Snarey aged 3 born Pickering - son of John & Ann. They also have a 1yr old son William whose birth is on freebmd. GRO maiden name search shows Ann was nee Liddell
Marriages March qtr 1860 Pickering 9d 605
Ann Liddell
John Snary
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Hi CarolW.
John Liddle and Anna Hill are listed in Hartlepool Registration 1860 Qtr 4 ref 10a/167.
The entry of March 1860 9d/605 has a different spelling of Liddle and is how it is shown on the register.
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You have the wrong marriage. Do John & Ann/Anna have a son Frederick b 1858 on the 1861 entry?
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his death notice for september 1961 is available.
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Thanks Hpool. Already had that marriage but not the church.
Following on CaroleW I pulled the marriage certificate for Frederick Liddle and Mary Atknson and noticed that his father is given as Johnson Snarey Liddle just to confuse me even further.
I seem to have misplaced my 1861 census record so will have to search this weekend for the entry of John & Ann/a.
Will now let my headache subside and continue looking later!.
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He was born as Liddle and his mother was single and surname Liddle. Therefore any subsequent marriage of his mother shortly after an 1858 birth is going to be as Liddle - not Hill.
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The bmd index shows in 1860
Marriages Dec 1860
Beauglass Barbara Hartlepool 10a 167
Fitton Jane Stockton 10a 167
Hill Anna Hartlepool 10a 167
Liddle John Hartlepool 10a 167
Smith John Hartlepool 10a 167
Time again to look for the birth certificate of Abram as it appears to be misfiled on my system
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I agree with CaroleW - John Liddle and Ann Hill are not Frederick's parents.
Bear in mind, the key word is his birthplace of Pickering!
Frederick was born in Pickering 1858 (surname as Liddell) and he was baptised as illeg. son of Ann Liddell at Pickering. Ann Liddell married a John Snary March quarter 1860 Pickering. On the 1861 and 1871 census Frederick is listed with the rest of the family as 'Snarey' - no idea if John Snary/Snarey was indeed his father but since he was given the second Christian name of 'Britton' suspect that was the surname of his real father.
He would have married as Liddle as that was his legal surname (and not Snarey).
Like yourself, I cannot see how Isabella Andrews was Abram's grandmother.
Annette
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Thanks Annette. This is a puzzler. As mentioned earlier Fred's father listed himself as Johnson Snarey Liddle on Fred's marriage certificate.
The previous observation that Abram was the result of an affair with Mary Atkinson seems possible as he is listed on 1901 and 1911 census as grandson and looking at various trees on Ancestry Abram does not appear to be listed amongst the children. The son Richard was born 1889 and then a gap until 1898 when Frederick was born. With Abram being born 1897 could Fred and Mary have parted or he was working somewhere or even prison and Mary had an affair. Cannot find Abrams birth certificate so have ordered one to see how that shapes up with parent details. Overall I cannot find a link for the Liddles to belong to the Andrews family or the related Robinsons and Dawkins so I shall wait for the certificate and take it from there.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread and once received I shall update.
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There certainly seems to be something strange re. the birth registration of Abram A Liddle. It seems to have been handwritten in at a later date on the main GRO index page in June quarter 1897 with a reference of S/33??
It doesn't come up on a check of the GRO site to confirm his mothers maiden name.
Plus, I note on your online tree you have a birthdate of 16th December 1897 for Abram but his addition to the GRO register is in the June quarter? This birthdate appears to be for a son Frederick born to Frederick Britton Liddle and Mary Atkinson (birth reg'd Mar.qtr.1898).
Right now, I'm doubting that Abram is in fact their son, certainly not Mary Atkinson's anyway as she was already pregnant with son Frederick when Abram was born??
With a handwritten addition to the GRO index page June 1897 for Abram A Liddle it looks like his birth was not registered at the relevant time and why the S/33 reference number is given.
I'm wondering whether the mother of Abram was Isabella's daughter Mary Ellen Andrews who married the same time that Abram was born i.e. June quarter 1897 Hartlepool to a Christopher Foster. Certainly, to be a grandson of Isabella, Abram would have to be a child of one of Isabella's sons by a lady surnamed Liddle or by daughter Mary Ellen with his father being a Liddle (although parents not married). What doesn't help is that his birth wasn't registered at the appropriate time and became a later addition to the registers.
Please post again when you receive the certificate and put me out of my misery as to who he belonged to.
Annette
Added: By the way, Fred's father didn't 'list himself' as Johnson Snarey Liddle, this is information that Fred would have given himself.
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Well here I am again back on Abram Andrews Liddle. Wrongly thought I had a birth certificate but I did not. Had names mixes up. Anyway I ordered one and GRO found no trace. When I gave them page number and the late reference of S/33 they told me that the birth was registered in September quarter 1933 and the handwritten entry was a cross reference in the correct year of birth.
Looking at the census again the name is clearly written Abram Andrews (and not Andrew) Liddle.
This birth certificate shows:
Date of Birth: 31st May 1897 at 14 South Redwood Street.
Name: Abram Andrews, Boy
Fathers name is blank!! (just to confuse)
Maiden Name of Mother: Isabella Liddle
Signature of person reporting: Isabella Battison, present at the birth, 16 Throston Street, West Hartlepool
When Registered: 10th August 1933 on the authority of the Registrar General
Looked on Free BMD for battison marriage to no avail
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Looked on Free BMD for battison marriage to no avail
The only entry for an Isabella Battison is a death in Crawley Sussex March 1990 which shows a birthdate of 28.10.1902
2 Battison marriages in Durham - 1918 and 1941 - have you checked them both out given the birth was not reported until 1933
Is Isabella Battison shown as "mother"?
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So, it looks pretty likely that Abram Andrews Liddle was the illegitimate son of Abram Andrews (Isabella's son) by a lady named Isabella Liddle.
That said, who was Isabella Liddle?
Annette
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1891 possible? Cumberland St, Stranton, hartlepool
John Liddell 41
Mary Liddell 36
John G Liddell 18
Thomas A Liddell 17
Isabella Liddell 13 <<<<
Florence Liddell 9
Eleanor Liddell 7
Walter Liddell 5
Lily Liddell 3
Albert Liddell 7/12
RG12, 4066, 120, 33
(other censuses a little challenging!)
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Sorry been absent so long but it was for domestic reasons.
Piecing everything together the following details of Abram Andrews Liddle seem to fit.
Abram was the son of Abram Andrews and was born 31sy May 1897 but the birth was not registered until 10th August 1933 the informant being Isabella Battison who was present at the birth, and resided at 16 Thurston Street, West Hartlepool. The birth certificate shows Abram's mother as Isabella Liddle and no father is shown. It is not thought that Isabella Battison was previously Liddle as she would have been identified as the mother and so far I cannot find her marriage to confirm her maiden name as Liddle.
So it seems Abram Andrews kept what appears to be the illegitimate son and Isabella Liddle left the scene.
The 1891 census shows Isabella Liddle at home with parents aged 13 which would make her 19 when Abram Andrews (it says Andrews on the census returns 1911) Liddle was born.
I have yet to find a marriage to Isabella and Abram.
My sincere thanks for all help received in putting this relationship together.