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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: philipsearching on Sunday 12 February 17 16:10 GMT (UK)
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I have seen a note of two entries for Basil Sandys in the London workhouse records.
Please could a kind Rootschatter let me know the details. I estimate the dates between 1839 and 1855 - probably around Westminster.
Many thanks
Philip
(Amended as requested)
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Basil Sandys 66 and Mary Ann Sandys 65 were discharged on 15.6.1840 - no admission date
Basil Sandys aged 43 was admitted 8.7.1843 and discharged 31.7.1843
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Basil Sandys 66 and Mary Ann Sandys 65 were discharged on 15.6.1840 - no admission date
This is the record of two children aged under 16 discharged on 15 June 1840 from the Stepney workhouse to the Limehouse Children's Establishment (65 and 66 are the numbers in the Relief List). They were chargeable to Mile End.
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Oh boy - what a divvy I am ::) Thought they were his parents!!
Mary Ann appears to have been admitted 15th June and young Basil 17th June
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The 1843 admission may be your man. He was born in 1800, Catholic, and was chargeable to Ireland. He was admitted to the Castle Street workhouse in Westminster, managed by St Martin in the Fields poor-law union, on 8 July (which was a Saturday), and was described as 'partially disabled' through 'sickness'. The day-book shows he was admitted 'until Monday', but the A&D register shows that he wasn't discharged until 31 July. No destination stated.
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Some discrepancies but same Basil
Deaths September qtr 1871
Basil Sands aged 61 St. Giles 1b 340
1871 census for St Giles
Basil Sandys 68 b Ireland clerk
Catherine 50 b St Giles
Sarah 14 b St Giles
RG10 Piece 343 Folio 48 Page 11
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Same 3 in 1861 and Catherine is still 50
Basil shown as born Cork 1801
RG9 Piece 168 Folio 97 Page 24
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Banns entry
Basil Sandys / Caroline Greenhill 29 Mar 1840 St Mary, Lambeth
No actual marriage entry to Caroline but he married Catherine Otter 19.3.1855 St Anne Soho
In 1851 Catherine Otter b 1819 and shown as married was in the St Giles WH
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There is a tree on Family Search showing his ancestry but they seem to have got his 1855 marriage wrong. Right date but Catherine is shown as Birmingham/Gillespie and no mention of Otter
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Many thanks to all for the replies.
Basil was supposedly baptised 31 Aug 1800 in Rathkeale. His family were from Roscommon
He was an Exciseman from 1827 to 1839.
He was reported in local papers in Longford June 1839 for battering his eldest daughter (one of six children)
He appears on the census in 1841 in Marylebone with son Edwin
He marries Catherine Otter (formerly Bermingham) in 1855
He appears on the census in 1861 in Finsbury with Catherine and daughter.
He dies in 1871 in St Giles
The gap from 1841 to 1855 has been a nightmare to fill. We know his daughter Eliza Aldwell SANDYS was married in 1860 at age 19, but are still trying to prove her birth, and the names of Basil's former wives (possibly Catherine GERAGHTY, but no marriage yet found)
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FindMyPast has recently added many English Roman Catholic records. There is a baptism in 1834 for a Basil Sandys at Commercial Road Stepney, and the father is Basil.
Also
Maria Anna Sandys 1831 1832 Commercial Road, Stepney Middlesex Basilii
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Baptism 30.5.1827 at the City of London Lying-In Hospital, Edward Sandys son of Basil (occ labourer) & Catherine. Address Midford Place Tottenham Court Rd
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Basil Sandys aged 8 is in the Limehouse WH in 1841 plus sister Mary Ann aged 10 (the ones I showed as 65 & 66 yrs old in my first reply!!) Surname spelt Landys.
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FindMyPast has recently added many English Roman Catholic records. There is a baptism in 1834 for a Basil Sandys at Commercial Road Stepney, and the father is Basil.
Also
Maria Anna Sandys 1831 1832 Commercial Road, Stepney Middlesex Basilii
Sorry to seem thick, but why 1831 and 1832?
Philip
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It seems odd that the records of these two children are East London (Stepney, chargeable to Mile End later on) whereas the records of Basil Snr are further west in Marylebone, Soho etc.
Perhaps they're not related?
Born in 1831 and baptised in 1832.
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It seems odd that the records of these two children are East London (Stepney, chargeable to Mile End later on) whereas the records of Basil Snr are further west in Marylebone, Soho etc.
Perhaps they're not related?
Born in 1831 and baptised in 1832.
Many thanks for the clarification.
Until I get to the National Archive I don't know where Basil's excise career took him. He trained in Greenwich in 1828 so he may have wandered westwards through London.
Philip
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Bookbox is the Workhouse expert (and is responsible for finding unindexed records of an ancestor of mine very recently that I would not have found by myself) and would know how it is decided where you at chargeable to.
This birth record has been mistranscribed.
SANDS, CATHERINE OTTER
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in ST. GILES IN THE FIELDS & ST. GEORGE BLOOMSBURY Volume 01B Page 349
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Good find Hurworth - that birthyear fits with daughter Sarah's birth so I wonder if they changed their minds about her name after registering her
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Good find Hurworth - that birthyear fits with daughter Sarah's birth so I wonder if they changed their minds about her name after registering her
Nothing would surprise me with Basil!
It is likely that Edwin age 13 on the 1841 census is the Edward baptised 1827 found by CaroleW (Edwin is a family name going back several generations).
Catherine baptised 1856 could well be Sarah (4 on 1861 census)
There are so many Catherines! Basil's mother was Catherine, wife(?) number 2 was Catherine and wife number 3 was Catherine. Plus the child baptised Catherine.
The search goes on!
Many thanks to everyone who has responded.
Philip
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He was admitted to the Castle Street workhouse in Westminster, managed by St Martin in the Fields poor-law union, on 8 July (which was a Saturday), and was described as 'partially disabled' through 'sickness'.
Could he be the Baswell Sands who was admitted to Castle Street WH, 3 May 1843, and discharged 7 July (one day before the Basil Sandys admission) Born 1800 in Ireland, Married, Labourer. Catholic.
Cause of seeking Relief - Fever
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Settlement examination, 1 May 1856, St Giles + St George
Catherine Sandys, 38, born ?
female infant, born Workhouse
Basil Sandys, 63, born Cork
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Is there any Marriage to prove, and if so, in what month and year, and where contracted?
- Basil Sandys + Catherine Otter
St Ann Westminster Mar 19.55
Certificate produced
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Is there any Marriage to prove, and if so, in what month and year, and where contracted?
- Basil Sandys + Catherine Otter
St Ann Westminster Mar 19.55
Certificate produced
Many thanks for the workhouse information.
We have the details of Basil's marriage to Catherine Otter and we believe the infant born in the workhouse noted in 1856 was Catherine. We don't yet know for sure if he married previously (an online tree has a marriage to Catherine GERAGHTY 21 Sep 1837 but I can't prove it)
Basil's whereabouts during his life are being pinned down nicely. We have him on censuses in 1841, 1861, 1871 and his death cert 1871 - one day I'll find him on the 1851 census (knowing Basil, he may well have been in prison!)
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Catherine Otter was nee Birmingham - already known
Here is her first marriage at St George Bloomsbury on 2.3.1846
William Otter - widower - cabinet maker - father John Otter - bricklayer
Catherine Birmingham - spinster - father George Birmingham - plasterer
There is a William Otter death in March qtr 1854 - aged 84??
Catherine Birmingham was in the St Giles WH in 1841 and again in 1851 as Catherine Otter
William Otter was in the same WH in 1841 - aged 65 - occ carpenter - not born in county
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Catherine Otter was nee Birmingham - already known
I was just giving a flavour of the settlement record!
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And as for the Mary Ann and Basil Sandys in Stepney WH - whoever they were -
Admitted 13 June 1840
Belong to Mile End
Destitute
Brought by Police H 29
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Hi
I was just giving a flavour of the settlement record!
No criticism intended - the tree on FS shows Catherine as Bermingham/Gillespie but no mention of Otter. That suggested 2 previous marriages - to Gillespie and Otter before the 1855 marriage to Basil.
In an earlier reply I queried the Gillespie so posted the marriage details to show she was a spinster in 1846 when she married Otter.
As Otter only died in 1854 I still don't know where Gillespie fits
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And as for the Mary Ann and Basil Sandys in Stepney WH - whoever they were -
Admitted 13 June 1840
Belong to Mile End
Destitute
Brought by Police H 29
Brought by Police! I wonder what Basil senior was doing at the time? This does not look good >:(
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On a slight tangent - there is a birth Jun qtr 1843 Westminster for Elizabeth Sandys. Does anyone have access to Catholic records to see if she was Basil's daughter?
Optimistic thanks
Philip
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On a slight tangent - there is a birth Jun qtr 1843 Westminster for Elizabeth Sandys.
You can now check for mmn on the GRO website using the freebmd references
Mmn was Rose
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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You can now check for mmn on the GRO website using the freebmd references
I do feel silly! I had heard something about this, but didn't think to try it.
Many thanks
Philip
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A possibility on the FindMyPast index?
Sands Basil — — 1826 Middlesex, London, Old Bailey Court Records 1674-1913
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18261207-233
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A possibility on the FindMyPast index?
Sands Basil — — 1826 Middlesex, London, Old Bailey Court Records 1674-1913
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t18261207-233
One of my favourite websites. Some of the early cases are extraordinary. :o
Basil was a witness in this trial, working in the Coach and Horses Inn, Shadwell at the time. This was his last known job before joining the Excise in 1827. Around this time he started having children.
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Now I have found my reading glasses (honestly!) and can see the thing properly
Exam 36454 is dated 1 May 1856
But has been updated later. Hence the discrepancy in Basil's age
His date of birth is given as 28 Aug 1800
Another female child was born 6 May 1862. Seems to say she was Louise
But GRO index says she was registered as Julia
June 1862 St. Giles 1b 413
Sandys, Julia
mother Birmingham
So we are looking at two entries, May 1856 (admitted 1st, discharged 17th)
and May 1862 (admitted 5th, discharged 16th)
Cause of distress - Labour
An address for 1856 is given
Address in 1862 was 8 Lascelles Place
Basil was a Labourer earning 12/- per week
Weekly Rent was 1/6
Previously had lived at
14 Endell Street
21 Endell Street
another address is there
Man states in 1826 he took a House No 47 Essex St. St Pancras, at £22 a yr, rented it only 9 months
Born in County of Cork, parents natives of Ireland + never in England
So Catherine has gone into the workhouse twice to give birth, and they have taken more info from Basil. That's how I read it.
John
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I don't know what information you already have.
On FamilySearch there is the death of Margaret Wilson who died in New York in 1917 aged 87, born in London and parents are recorded as Basil Sandys and Catherine Dillon.
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All praise to the workhouse admin who noted the information - and even more praise to the wonderful Rootschattters who uncover it!
This is amazing.
Philip
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And as for the Mary Ann and Basil Sandys in Stepney WH - whoever they were -
Admitted 13 June 1840
Belong to Mile End
Destitute
Brought by Police H 29
I have seen indexes on FindMyPast for St Mary & St Michael RC, Stepney:
Mary Ann was baptised in 1832
Basil was baptised in 1844.
Could a kind rootschatter confirm who their parents were?
Many thanks in advance.
Philip
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Marriage of Mgt Sandy (aged 35) to Orlando C Wilson
30 Mar 1869
Fourth Ward, Jersey City, Hudson, New Jersey
Her parents Bassil and Cath.
His parents Jame and Eliza.
He might be the Orlando C Wilson who was in Chorlton, Lancashire aged 20 in 1841. Parents are James C Wilson and Eliza.
The Stepney baptisms.
Basil, born 23 Feb 1834, bap 23 Mar 18.
Parents Basil Sandys and Catherine Devany. Sponsors Thomas Devany and Rachael Stanton
Maria Anna, 2 Dec 1831, bap 1 Jan 1832
Basilii Sandys and Catherine Devenny. Sponsors Benjamin Ball and Francisca Ball.
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Hi
I was just giving a flavour of the settlement record!
No criticism intended - the tree on FS shows Catherine as Bermingham/Gillespie but no mention of Otter. That suggested 2 previous marriages - to Gillespie and Otter before the 1855 marriage to Basil.
In an earlier reply I queried the Gillespie so posted the marriage details to show she was a spinster in 1846 when she married Otter.
As Otter only died in 1854 I still don't know where Gillespie fits
The tree you are referring to is mine, when Catherine married William Otter, she gave her father's name as George Birmingham, but when she married Basil Sandy's, she gave her father's name as Thomas Gillespie. As we know nothing about Catherines origins, don't know for sure what her parentage is.
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Marriage of Mgt Sandy (aged 35) to Orlando C Wilson
30 Mar 1869
Fourth Ward, Jersey City, Hudson, New Jersey
Her parents Bassil and Cath.
His parents Jame and Eliza.
He might be the Orlando C Wilson who was in Chorlton, Lancashire aged 20 in 1841. Parents are James C Wilson and Eliza.
The Stepney baptisms.
Basil, born 23 Feb 1834, bap 23 Mar 18.
Parents Basil Sandys and Catherine Devany. Sponsors Thomas Devany and Rachael Stanton
Maria Anna, 2 Dec 1831, bap 1 Jan 1832
Basilii Sandys and Catherine Devenny. Sponsors Benjamin Ball and Francisca Ball.
Wow, thank you for all this info, been trying to find this for ages. Can you tell me what sites you found this marriage and the baptisms on? Many thanks.
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The baptisms have only just become available on Findmypast in the past week Sue. I'm very excited that these records are available.
https://blog.findmypast.com/the-catholic-heritage-collection-2247634492.html
Margaret's marriage transcription is on Findmypast. Ancestry has a transcription as well, but without the parents' names.
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Bookbox is the Workhouse expert (and is responsible for finding unindexed records of an ancestor of mine very recently that I would not have found by myself) and would know how it is decided where you at chargeable to.
Correction - it was jonw65 who found the records.
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A death in New Orleans of a Basil Sandys, born in England 1835
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Sandys&GSiman=1&GSsr=41&GRid=128576234&
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A death in New Orleans of a Basil Sandys, born in England 1835
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Sandys&GSiman=1&GSsr=41&GRid=128576234&
Yes, I have thought for sometime this was the young Basil, sad he died quite young.
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A death in New Orleans of a Basil Sandys, born in England 1835
That's another great find.
Have to be lucky with the workhouse records
Julia is recorded in the St Giles + St George Birth Book
1862, May 6th
Name - Julia
Sex - Girl
Father Benjamin(!) Sandys
Mother - Catherine formerly Birmingham
Calling - Messenger
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A death in New Orleans of a Basil Sandys, born in England 1835
That's another great find.
Have to be lucky with the workhouse records
Julia is recorded in the St Giles + St George Birth Book
1862, May 6th
Name - Julia
Sex - Girl
Father Benjamin(!) Sandys
Mother - Catherine formerly Birmingham
Calling - Messenger
Hi Jon, this is brilliant, can you post links to where you found this and to their other child Catherine, who I believe to be my g.grandma Sarah. I have just recently sent for the birth cert for said Catherine, born 1856.
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A death in New Orleans of a Basil Sandys, born in England 1835
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Sandys&GSiman=1&GSsr=41&GRid=128576234&
Basil junior buried 11 Oct 1867 New Orleans, Louisiana. His sister (half-sister?) Elizabeth had a daughter Marie Massereene CORDNER who is on the 1880 US census as born c1867 in Louisiana. Basil jnr's death is a hugely exciting find - thank you so much!
Philip
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG9R-MX3
Julia Sundys
England Births and Christenings
Name Julia Sundys
Gender Female
Birth Date 06 May 1862
Birthplace ST GILES,HOLBORN,LONDON,ENGLAND
Father's Name Benjamin Sundys
Mother's Name Catherine Birmingham
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG9R-MX3
Julia Sundys
England Births and Christenings
Name Julia Sundys
Gender Female
Birth Date 06 May 1862
Birthplace ST GILES,HOLBORN,LONDON,ENGLAND
Father's Name Benjamin Sundys
Mother's Name Catherine Birmingham
Marvellous, another different spelling for Sandys.
Many thanks, you are finding stuff I have never come across.
:-*
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This is wonderful!
If we can find a daughter (name unknown) born c1826, and Elizabeth/Eliza born c1841 I would be even more ecstatic than I am now :D
Rootschatters are the best!
Philip
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Now I have found my reading glasses (honestly!) and can see the thing properly
Exam 36454 is dated 1 May 1856
But has been updated later. Hence the discrepancy in Basil's age
His date of birth is given as 28 Aug 1800
Another female child was born 6 May 1862. Seems to say she was Louise
But GRO index says she was registered as Julia
June 1862 St. Giles 1b 413
Sandys, Julia
mother Birmingham
So we are looking at two entries, May 1856 (admitted 1st, discharged 17th)
and May 1862 (admitted 5th, discharged 16th)
Cause of distress - Labour
An address for 1856 is given
Address in 1862 was 8 Lascelles Place
Basil was a Labourer earning 12/- per week
Weekly Rent was 1/6
Previously had lived at
14 Endell Street
21 Endell Street
another address is there
Man states in 1826 he took a House No 47 Essex St. St Pancras, at £22 a yr, rented it only 9 months
Born in County of Cork, parents natives of Ireland + never in England
So Catherine has gone into the workhouse twice to give birth, and they have taken more info from Basil. That's how I read it.
John
Jon, can you provide the exact link to this please, as I can't find it. Many thanks.
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Hi Sue
London, England, Poor Law and Board of Guardian Records, 1430-1930
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1557
Browse this collection (small boxes, right hand side of page)
Borough - Camden
Poor Law Union - Holborn
Record Type - Settlement Papers
drop down list should appear (if not, refresh page)
scroll down to - Settlement examinations nos. 36257-36508, 1830-1868
(its number 36454, image 249 of 323)
I've looked for an exam of Catherine Birmingham/Otter, not found one. Which doesn't mean that one isn't there (pretty sure that two books of indexes dated 1830-68 do not in fact go that far back)
The birth of Julia should be on London Births and Baptisms
If it isn't they may have jumped a page or two (it's from microfilm)
All is not lost, however
In the same poor law records as for the exam, select
Camden/Holborn/Births
Takes you straight to the Register of births, 1858-1881 for St Giles/George (filmed by ancestry at the LMA, so better)
Julia is image 23 of 137
John
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Thank you so much John, you must have a lot of patience to look through those.
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Basil SANDYS updated timeline
sources shown in brackets. Rootschat sources are mostly from workhouse records and Catholic baptism records
Father - Edwin SANDYS, army lieutenant (as per Basil's 1855 marriage cert)
1800 Basil born in Rathkeale (Excise application 1827) (1856 settlement return says born 28 Aug 1800 in Cork)
1826 14 Jul - Basil leases 47 Essex Street, Pancras (Rootschat)
1826 7 Dec - Basil witness in court case at Old Bailey. Working at Coach and Horses Inn, Shadwell (Old Bailey Online trial records)
1826 (approximate year) eldest daughter born (Longford Journal 1839 age given as c13)
1827 11 Apr signs papers applying as Excise Officer. Supporting letter describes him as a single man (Excise application 1827)
1827 30 May, son Edward baptised, City of London lying-in hospital (Rootschat)
1827 (approximate year) son Edwin born (1841 census page - aged 13)
1830 (approximate year) daughter Margaret born
1831 2 Dec - daughter Maria Anna born, baptised 1 Jan 1832 (mother Catherine nee DEVANEY (Rootschat)
1834 23 Feb - son Basil born, baptised 23 Mar (mother Catherine nee DEVANEY (Rootschat)
1839 last entry in indexes to Excise minute registers (National Archive online search)
1839 15 Jun - Longford Journal reports battering of daughter age c13. First wife deceased, Basil has a second wife (newspaper cutting)
1840 29 Mar banns read for Basil Sandys and Caroline Greenhill St Mary, Lambeth (no record of a marriage found) (Rootschat)
1840 13 Jun Mary Ann and Basil admitted to Stepney workhouse by police (Rootschat)
1840 15 Jun Mary Ann and Basil discharged from workhouse to Limehouse Children's Establishment (Rootschat)
1841 (approximate year) daughter Elizabeth Aldwell born (age 19 on marriage cert in 1860)
1841 Mary Ann (10) and Basil (8) on census in Limehouse workhouse (Rootschat)
1841 Basil and Edwin (13) on census in 19 Sidney Street, Marylebone (census page)
1843 3 May - Baswell SANDS admitted to Castle Street workhouse, discharged 7 Jul (Rootschat)
1843 8 Jul - Basil SANDYS admitted to Castle Street workhouse, discharged 31 Jul (Rootschat)
1851 census - Basil not found
1855 19 Mar - Basil married Catherine OTTER (widow), St Annes Soho (marriage cert)
1856 1 May - Catherine admitted to St Giles workhouse, female infant born, discharged 17 May (Rootschat)
1856 May - daughter Catherine (Sarah) born
1861 Basil, Catherine and Sarah (4) on census in 144 Endell Street, St Giles (census page)
1862 5 May - Catherine admitted to St Giles workhouse (to give birth), discharged 16 May (Rootschat)
1862 6 May - daughter Julia (Louise?) born (Rootschat)
1862 May - Basil living at 8 Lascelles Place, labourer earning 12s per week (Rootschat)
1871 census (to be checked)
1871 7 Jul Basil dies at 7 Princes Street, St Giles (death cert)
EVIDENCE TO FIND
documentary proof of Basil's birth
documentary proof of marriages before 1855
documentary proof of Elizabeth birth c1841
(Note - at the moment I am only looking to prove Basil's marriages and the births of Basil's children
CHILDREN
daughter - born c1826 (c13 in 1839)
Edward - bap 30 May 1827 City of London lying in hospital. Son of Basil (labourer) and Catherine, Midford Place, Tottenham Court Rd
Edwin born c1828 (age 13 on 1841 census)
Margaret born c1830 (mother DILLON?) (m WILSON, d New York 1917 age 87)
Maria Anna - born 2 Dec 1831 bapt 1 Jan 1832 Commercial Road, Stepney (mother Catherine DEVANEY)
Basil - born 23 Feb bapt 23 Mar 1834 Commercial Rd, Stepney(mother Catherine DEVANEY)
Elizabeth Aldwell - born c1841 according to marriage cert
Catherine - female infant born May 1856 St Giles workhouse (age 4 on 1861 census)
Julia (Louise) born 6 May 1862 St Giles workhouse
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Free weekend for UK records on ancestry, so this is the link to the exam
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jis/
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Can anyone find Orlando and Margaret Wilson in any American census after marriage of 1869. I found Margaret in 1910 New York, as a widow,and am only sure it's her as she's at same address noted on her death cert.
I can't seem to find them.
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Free weekend for UK records on ancestry, so this is the link to the exam
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jis/
Got it! Yippee!
A thousand thanks
Philip
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Glad you've got it, Philip.
Sue, if Orlando is the chap from Lancashire then he seems to be "visiting" his parents in 1871 (Ardwick)
Death of Orlando Chester Wilson in Stockport, June qtr 1878, age 37
John
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Glad you've got it, Philip.
Sue, if Orlando is the chap from Lancashire then he seems to be "visiting" his parents in 1871 (Ardwick)
Death of Orlando Chester Wilson in Stockport, June qtr 1878, age 37
John
Thanks for looking, I saw that one and wondered if it was him. If it was, he didn't hang about long in USA.
Margaret might have been telling porkies in 1910 as she said she'd had several children. They don't make it easy for us, do they? :'(
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There's a Margaret Sandys, not born in county, in Norwood Workhouse, Lambeth in 1841. She is 11.