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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: nicholastolson on Wednesday 15 February 17 03:35 GMT (UK)
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I have a Harriet(t) Baldwin whose place of birth in Norfolk, in the census, is hard to read:
- 1851, found in Wingate, Durham: p.o.b. Ritsel or Kitsel?, Norfolk
- 1861, found in Castleford, Yorkshire: p.o.b. Litsel? (Ancestry indexes as Sitvill), Norfolk
- 1871, found in Methley, Yorkshire: p.o.b. Tibenham, Norfolk
- 1881, found in Castleford, Yorkshire: p.o.b. Fitsall, Norfolk
I do know that all these Harriet(t)s are one and the same, and I do know where Tibenham is. Can you please help me with the others (presumably all variants on a single placename)?
For reasons I won't go into now, it would be nice if her place of birth turned out to be close to Saxlingham; Tibenham presents greater problems. Still, the main thing is to locate Fitsel/Litsel or however it's spelled. Many thanks.
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May I suggest that the "ts" might in fact be "long s" followed by a "short s". sometimes long s looks like a y or an f.
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Hi
Have you already trawled through this lot?
If not, I suggest you make yourself a cuppa before you start!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_in_Norfolk#F
"Can't sleep" Giggsy
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According to Genuki, none of those places exist. The closest I could find is Tittleshall, but that is over 17 miles from Saxlingham.
Errors in interpretations of places of birth were quite common when people lived in a different county. Understandable.
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Having looked at Harriet's place of birth on all of the censuses you mention, I'd say the place name looks more like Titsel, and variants - I think first letter is always a T (but Fibenham in the 1871).
Not much help sorry, but looking at the spellings of the places of birth of other family members, in many instances they are incorrectly spelled.
It probably comes down to how the place name sounds when it is spoken, as to how it was written on the census, which may bear little resemblance to how it is spelled in reality.
Added: Presumably you are looking for Harriet's birth? What is her maiden name? There are some excellent resources for Norfolk - you might just have to scout around a few places looking for her. :)
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Another suggestion: Tivetshall? :-\
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Just to add to Ruskie's trail, could you please give dates for possible birth/when/where married with whether from the Parish she married in/name of her father with occupation to look for a possible birth/baptism?
Annie
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Hello,
Looking at her marriage as Harriet Webster - father Ezekiel, there is an Ezekiel Websdale at 1841 757/4/2 - Tibbenham.
There are a couple of baptisms to Ezekiel and Mary Websdale/Websdil etc - one being Mary Ann in Tivetshall, 1821.
Harriet Websdale was baptised 1818, parents Ezekiel and Mary Prime but no place shown.
Family Search has this baptism - Aslacton.
Heywood
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Heywood,
Seems to be the correct person, given the names & areas.
I don't understand when people give names & census place references that they don't add crucial info. to help others to help them.
A name on a census tells us nothing if we don't know when the person was born (circa) or anything else about them such as occupation to give clues for us?
Annie
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That's true Annie, but in this case there is only one Harriet Webster using the place of birth as Norfolk and places of residence as given by the OP. :)
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Ruskie,
That's all good but us 'looking in' don't know that as there are no references to the census info. nor a circa d.o.b to save us having to 'Go ogle' everything.
The more facts in front of us help to narrow things down ;)
Annie
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According to Genuki, none of those places exist. The closest I could find is Tittleshall,
Having looked at Harriet's place of birth on all of the censuses you mention, I'd say the place name looks more like Titsel,
...and according to this list of Norfolk placenames Tittleshall is pronounced Titsal.
http://www.norfolkdialect.com/villages.htm
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I am wondering then if I have made the wrong connection, Jen. :-\
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...and according to this list of Norfolk placenames Tittleshall is pronounced Titsal.
http://www.norfolkdialect.com/villages.htm
Excellent site Jen (it's going into my favourites).
Titteshall = Tittsal
Tivetshall = Titsorl
They sound quite similar ... :-\
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Thanks, all. Two points.
First, I now lean towards Ruskie's suggestion of Tivetshall. It's near Tibenham and crops up in other records for this family. JenB's point about "Titsal" is tempting but, as Ruskie also points out, Tittleshall is much further away.
Second: Annie, I left out maiden name, dates &c on purpose. I wasn't trying to identify Harriet, as I know quite a lot about her (but thanks, Heywood); I just wanted some local knowledge, from this Norfolk list, about placenames. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Thanks again, everyone.
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As an original norfolk resident
1. Remember to take out of names, places as many letters as you can
2. Then say it in a funny accent so nbody cn unnestan ya It mek sens wunce ye star t lissen
3 Happisburgh becomes Haisboro. Setchey become Sech
Yes Tivettshall would be pronounced Titsal (Dont forget if they could not fill in the census form, they would be asked the details and the enumerator would put down, what he thought he heard).
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1. Remember to take out of names, places as many letters as you can
2. Then say it in a funny accent so nbody cn unnestan ya It mek sens wunce ye star t lissen
We have our fair share of idiosyncratic pronunciations of placenames up here in Northumberland ;D And following on from that, the phonetic renderings of those placenames on census returns. :D
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Second: Annie, I left out maiden name, dates &c on purpose. I wasn't trying to identify Harriet, as I know quite a lot about her (but thanks, Heywood); I just wanted some local knowledge, from this Norfolk list, about placenames. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Thanks again, everyone.
Whilst understanding your take on the request, in order to determine the place - and I am sure I am not alone- I went to the censuses. This is perhaps what Annie means - you could have mentioned the census references.
Then I looked for a marriage. Then looked for those people in censuses - Ezekiel etc. Lastly compared the places of birth.
If you know all about Harriet, you will have the same information which points to Tivetshall.
I notice that Ruskie also looked at and compared the censuses and in this case we arrived at Tivetshall.
Had we not done this kind of search, we could have decided that Tittleshall was the right place.
I have only written this rather long reply to just point out that rootschatters explore various paths to try to help people.
It is no problem but I just want to explain it from another point of view ;)
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I have only written this rather long reply to just point out that rootschatters explore various paths to try to help people. It is no problem but I just want to explain it from another point of view ;)
Thanks, Heywood. Your posts slightly outnumber mine ;) and I really do appreciate these hints from a veteran.
I'd thought that by bringing Ezekiel et al into the picture I risked distracting readers from the question about placenames, but I should have realised that rootschatters have a longer attention span than most. Thanks again to all, and (for me) back now to the tree itself.
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;D
We love it!
Interesting surname change too.