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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Hamish1964 on Thursday 16 February 17 12:52 GMT (UK)
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Thomas Nicol (Jnr) was born in 1830 in Montrose and was a sailmaker. He married Jane Sharp in 1851 and they had a number of children. In 1854/55 Thomas decided to add an L to the surname making it Nicoll. Jane died in 1892 and Thomas in 1904.
Thomas' father was also called Thomas and was also a sailmaker in Montrose, his mother was called Charlotte. Thomas senior is the person I am interested in. I am struggling to find any records of this Thomas and I am left with one or two possibilities, the strongest one being born in 1808. This Thomas married a Charlotte Garden in 1826, Charlotte would have been 11 years his senior b.1797. The only official document Thomas appears on is Jane Nicol(l) (Sharp) death cert where he is the informant of her death, despite his son still being alive. No census records seem to have him recorded.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated
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Hi ,
Is this the family in 1841(FreeCEN) ?
Ferry Street , Montrose , Angus
Charlotte Nicol 43 born Angus
Thomas Nicol 11
Jane Nicol 8
David Nicol 5
Charlotte Nicol 3
All children born outside Census County , from the 1851 Census I think they were born Ferry Port on Craig Fife.
So could this be your Thomas ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY83-QFS
ev
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Hi ev
Thanks for the reply
Yes that is them in the 1841 census, but Thomas senior is not shown with them. I have viewed the FerryPort documents before and have the one you mention, clearly if it is them then Charlottes surname was incorrectly recorded, but i have seen that happen a few time already, so not out of the question.
There are two likelys born in FerryPort, but also two likelys born around Montrose and Montrose seems to be the centre for that part of my family for over 200 years.
Thanks again
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Sorry ev
just another thing...You mention the 1851 census. I didnt find them on that census on the records I checked on Scotlands People, where did you see it?
Thanks
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Found on FreeCEN -
1851 6 Commerce Street , Montrose , Angus
Charlotte Nicol 55 widow born Craig Angus
Jane Nicol 18 dau. linen reeler b. Ferry Port on Craig Fife
David Nicol 15 son hairdresser master b. Ferry Port on Craig Fife
Charlotte Nicol 13 dau, house servant b. Ferry Port on Craig Fife
ev
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Not sure if you have seen these deaths on SP(age a little out) -
Charlotte Nichol age 72 , 1874 , Montrose Angus , 312/10.
Charlotte Gardyne age 72 , 1874 , Montrose Angus , 312/10.
ev
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Thanks ev
That's excellent will give that all a look.
I had Charlotte still alive at 73 yrs, co- habiting with a widower so will double check that.
Really appreciate your help
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Unfortunately seem to being going round in circles on this.
Thomas Nicol(Snr) married Charlotte Garden in 1826, in Craig Nr Montrose. They then had a child called Jessie in 1827, also in Craig. It then appears that the family must have moved to Ferry Port on Craig where Thomas (Jnr)1830, Jane 1833, David1836 and Charlotte 1838 were born. The 1841 Census shows them back in Montrose, but only the mother Charlotte and the four younger children are shown. Thomas (Snr) and Jessie do not appear. I am guessing, but it seems likely that Jessie died young. In the 1851 census the mother Charlotte is shown as a widow. Again guessing, but it may be that Thomas (Snr) died while they were living in Ferry Port and after his death the family moved back to Montrose. The problem is I have no definitive for Thomas (Snr) either by birth or death. The most likely for Thomas (Snr) was born in 1808 to James Nicol and Margaret Burnett.
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I don't think it is very likely that Thomas born in 1808 is the one who married in 1826.
First, it is extremely unusual for men to marry at age 18. Thomas must have been apprenticed to a sailmaker to learn his trade, and until he had completed his apprenticeship and established himself he would hardly have been able to support a wife and family.
Second, none of Thomas' family were named either James or Margaret. If Thomas and Charlotte followed the naming tradition, his parents' names would have been Thomas and Jane, and Charlotte's would have been David and Jessie/Janet. However you can't be absolutely certain of this because of the missing information.
The 1841 census lists Charlotte as 43. So if her age in that census is accurate she would have been born in 1796/1797. The 1851 census lists Charlotte as aged 55 and born in Craig. So if her age in that census is accurate, she would have been born in 1795/1796. A Charlotte Garden was born in Craig on 20 March 1797 and would have been 44 on census day 1841 and 54 on census day 1851. The parents of this Charlotte Garden were David Garden and Ann Kinnear. Have you found a death certificate for Charlotte? (She isn't the one who died in Montrose in 1868, aged 70. That one was born in St Cyrus in (allegedly) 1793, married John Milne in St Cyrus on 26 November 1819, and there is gravestone in Montrose commemorating her and her husband.)
I see that Thomas Jr was born on 26 January and baptised on 14 February 1830 in Ferry Port on Craig, mother's name given as Charolette Gairns.
Unfortunately the baptisms of Jane (1832/33), David (1835/36) and Charlotte (1837/38) don't seem to be in the index at Scotland's People or anywhere else reliable. So it's not possible to be 100% certain there are no missing children who died in infancy.
There is a Thomas Nicoll, son of Thomas Nicoll and Jean Chalmers, baptised in Dundee in 1789. Could this be your Thomas, perhaps? He would have been 37 in 1826, which is on the old side to be getting married for the first time, but maybe it wasn't a first marriage? A marriage at 37 is still more likely than at 18.
The only official document Thomas appears on is Jane Nicol(l) (Sharp) death cert where he is the informant of her death, despite his son still being alive.
But according to the census he had died by 1851, so he could not possibly have signed a death certificate in 1892.
Charlotte Nichol age 72 , 1874 , Montrose Angus , 312/10.
Charlotte Gardyne age 72 , 1874 , Montrose Angus , 312/10
I had Charlotte still alive at 73 yrs, co- habiting with a widower so will double check that.
Remember that Charlotte should have had a better idea of her own age than whoever registered her death.
In 1854/55 Thomas decided to add an L to the surname making it Nicoll.
Actually, he probably didn't. Spelling was a very inexact science - your name was spelled however the person writing it down thought it should be spelled. Note that in Jessie's baptism is appears as Nichol, even though the marriage and the baptism of Thomas Jr both use Nicol. Don't try to read anything into spelling.
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Hi Forfarian
Many thanks for that extensive assessment, very much appreciated.
Have to agree that the 1808 seemed young and he would be 11 years younger than Charlotte. I havnt found a death Cert for Charlotte. In fact I am struggling document wise around most of this part of the family at that time.
There is another Thomas born 1794, to George Nicol and Elizabeth Black.
Re Jane Sharps death certificate I believe that it is actually Thomas junior who is the informant, the entry is unclear. That would make more sense I know he was alive and later lived with their daughter.
The one thing I am absolutely sure about is the deliberate adding of the "L" to the name, it was one of the reasons I began this. It had been passed down my family that it had occurred, but I agree with you I have seen various spelling errors on many of the documents.
I have to say I totally agree with you re naming.
Thanks
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I havnt found a death Cert for Charlotte.
Have you definitely ruled out (i.e. looked at) the one ev suggested?
Not sure if you have seen these deaths on SP(age a little out) -
Charlotte Nichol age 72 , 1874 , Montrose Angus , 312/10.
Charlotte Gardyne age 72 , 1874 , Montrose Angus , 312/10.
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No I havnt thats going to be my next step. I had initially ruled it out re spellings and ages etc. but can see the sense in it now.
Thanks
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I'll be interested to hear if it is the right one, actually.
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The only official document Thomas appears on is Jane Nicol(l) (Sharp) death cert where he is the informant of her death, despite his son still being alive. No census records seem to have him recorded.
Hi Hamish,
Just had a quick run through your post.
I would be surprised if the relationship of Thomas is not recorded on that death cert?
Annie
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Hi Hamish,
I forgot to ask if there were any surnames used as middle names, even if further down the line as that can be a great clue to their ancestors?
Annie
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Forfarian, I will let you know once done.
Rosinish, The death cert for Jane Nicol(l) (Sharp) was interesting. It shows Thomas Junior to be her widower. But in the informant section it reads Thomas Nicoll (and what appears to be) father of widower. Now as it has been rightly pointed out that cannot be because Thomas senior had already died, plus he spelt his name Nicol not Nicoll (but we know about spelling issues). I am sure the informant is actually her husband Thomas Junior.
I'm glad you raised the issue of middle names, I was going to mention it:
I have both my grandmothers maiden names - Young and Ritchie
My father has one of his grandmothers maiden names - Young
My uncle (Dads brother) was Hutcheon
Their father had a middle name that from my searches seems to relate to his grandfathers brother in laws surname - Hutcheon
His father had the same middle name - Hutcheon
His father had a middle name that as yet I have not seen feature - Stewart. His brother in law ws a John Hutcheon, could be coincidence.
Then we get to the two Thomas' and no middle names identified.
Thanks
Thanks
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Forfarian
Just checked it and it is Charlotte Nichol widow of Thomas Nichol (Seaman), dated Jan 1874 and aging her at 72.
Informant is her son David, also shown as Nichol we can only guess whether he signed it or it was the registrar (Peter Duncan) who seems to appear on every document I read, he must have lived to a good age!!
Parents are shown as David Gardyne and Ann Gardyne (nee Kinnear), so I am happy that this all ties in with Charlotte Garden. On that basis the age of death is wrong, she would have been 77.
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the age of death is wrong, she would have been 77.
Not quite! As she was born in March 1797, and died in January 1874, she would have been just a couple of months short of her 77th birthday.
Maybe Thomas was at sea on the date of the 1841 census? On the other hand, if he died at sea there would be no record to be found.
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On the death cert it says she was 72, so that was wrong. But good spot re 76, I have looked at the record and although on the search result it states 72, it easily could be a 6 and not a 2.
Re Thomas, I noticed on some census records that some people were recorded if at sea, but it certainly may explain why they were in Ferry Port and then Charlotte and the kids returned to Montrose.
Thanks again
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On the death cert it says she was 72, so that was wrong. But good spot re 76,
The age on any DC can vary by several years as it's the informant who gives the details, not the person who's deceased i.e not always too accurate.
Is it possible to post a clip of the DC for us to see who the informant is please (how it was recorded) but can you widen it for formation comparison)?
Annie
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The only concern with this is that if the signature is that of David, then he has spelt his name Nichol.
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I haven't had time yet to look at it but as Forfarian has already pointed out, forget spelling!!!
I have a family with no less than 12 variations of the spelling i.e. if I was to go with 1 spelling I would still be at stage 1 in my research ;D
Annie
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The informant is definitely;
David Nichol
Son
11 John Street, Montrose
He may be there either side of date on census 1871/1881?
With what you have for his family, this should confirm?
Annie
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Tell me about it with the spelling, I've spent my life spelling my name to people only to watch them get it wrong!!
Confirmed on 1881 census David Nichol aged 45 born Tayport (Ferryport). I am happy that I have got good confirmation re Thomas Jnr and his mother Charlotte. The problem still remains re Thomas Snr, I think Forfarian is likely right re death at sea or like. I have got to look again re likely candidate to identify birth and parents.
Thanks
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Looks as though it says Merchant Services?
Have you looked for his Merchant Seaman's Records?
May be worth finding them.
Annie
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I used to know someone named Hamish Nicol
Deleted rest as I think now it may have been McNicol?
Annie
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I see that Charlotte is described as a pauper on her death certificate. This has a very specific implication, which is that she was on the Register of Poor and in receipt of relief from the Parochial Board.
If the Parochial Board records have survived, you will find they contain a lot of detail about her, which could include, for instance, where her husband was born.
Start with Angus Archives http://www.angus.gov.uk/info/20369/archives/215/angus_archives and see if the Montrose Parochial Board records have survived.
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Annie - My user name is Hamish but I am James and surname has been Nicoll since Thomas Jnr changed it in the 1850s apparently!!
Forfarian - That's great info I will look at that.
Cheers
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The death cert for Jane Nicol(l) (Sharp) was interesting. It shows Thomas Junior to be her widower. But in the informant section it reads Thomas Nicoll (and what appears to be) father of widower. Now as it has been rightly pointed out that cannot be because Thomas senior had already died, plus he spelt his name Nicol not Nicoll (but we know about spelling issues). I am sure the informant is actually her husband Thomas Junior.
Can you do same please with a clip of image of DC for us to see who's the informant, the wording?
Annie
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Clip as requested
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Looks as if Thomas Nicol's relationship is recorded as (Father) Widower.
Clearly, he can't be Jane Sharp's father, whose name was John Sharp. Nor can he be Thomas' father, because we know that Thomas' mother was a widow by 1851. So it's a bit curious that he should be thus recorded. Maybe an error by the Registrar?
I notice that the name is spelled with only one l. If Thomas Jr had deliberately added a second l in 1855, why did he sign his name with only one in 1892?
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I agree I think it should just be widower and it is her husband. I thought the same re the one L, which was why I initially believed it was Thomas Snr.
Re Charlotte she died in the Poor House in Montrose, it appears records probably exist, but they may be locked.
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Re Charlotte she died in the Poor House in Montrose, it appears records probably exist, but they may be locked.
Shouldn't be - she died well over 100 years ago, which is the normal cut-off date.
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Ive posed that question to the archives people, see what comes back.
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Reply from archives - No poor records for Charlotte.
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Oh dear :(
But it was worth asking.
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Yeah bit of a pain
Couple of extra snippets
Charlotte was born in Boddin
On Jessie Nichol birth entry it says "Thomas Nichol salmon fisher at Boddin"
Looking at a Thomas born 1794 at St Vigeans but actually was Colliston Mill.
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Looking at a Thomas born 1794 at St Vigeans but actually was Colliston Mill.
Colliston is in the parish of St Vigeans.
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So the latest update on this
I decided to try and look at Thomas Snrs other children
Jessie b.1827 appears to have died very young, prior to the departure to Ferry Port.
Jane b1833 married James Spink in 1851, in Montrose. James Spink was a Merchant Seaman.
David b.1836 became a hairdresser. In 1861 he was still living with his mother Charlotte and later married Ann Logan(s) in 1868, in Montrose. He died in Montrose in 1902 and on his DC it states that his parents were Thomas Nicol (Fisherman) and Charlotte Gardyne.
Charlotte Jnr b.1838, finding it difficult to pin her down at moment.
So interesting, but unfortunately does not get me any closer in identifying who Thomas Snr actually was.
The Thomas Nicol born at St Vigeans in 1794, is a candidate and I was unable to locate him in the 1841 census. Clealry the evidence I have is that Thomas Snr most likely died between 1838 and 1841.
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Could Thomas nicol born 1802 ferryport on craig to Thomas and Janet nicol be the one who married Charlotte garden