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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Nick_Ips on Friday 17 February 17 12:29 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to locate the death and burial of Robert Chapman born around 1811 in either Hickling or Catfield (depends on source).
Robert lived in Hickling from 1831 through to 1891 (at least) and was married Mary Ann TURNER 07-02-1831.
Mary Ann died in 1890 and was buried 11-11-1890 in Hickling. One of their sons Robert (b.1843) died in 1893 and was buried at Hickling on 02-05-1893. This Robert's death is referred to in the extracts of the Waxham Deanery Monthly Magazine on the Hickling village history website - he suffered from fits and was cared for by the elderly Robert (Snr).
The only likely death I've found for Robert (senior) is in the 3rd quarter of 1897 aged 86. However, there is no matching record for Robert in the Hickling burial register. I've checked on FreeReg and there are no records for the burial of a Robert Chapman in 1897. I've also checked the graveyard surveys for Hickling with no luck, but then there is no memorial for Mary Ann or Robert (Jnr) either.
Hickling is the logical burial place - he lived there for years, his wife and child(ren) are buried there. The vicar at the time was Arthur A T Crosse - who appears to have been a remarkably diligent man - and forgetting to record the burial of a long-standing member of the parish would seem to be completely out of character.
So any ideas what happened to Robert - him not being buried at Hickling seems so unlikely, but that is what the evidence is pointing to.
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There is a Robert Chapman
died 1897
Jul-Aug-Sept
Smallburgh
norfolk
Vol 4b
page 39
Catfiled is ( was) in the Smallburgh registraton district
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No burial, but have his baptism in Catfield 1812
from the 1811 on left page go across to the right Robert, John & Ann Chapman, Bell, July 11
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jic/
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Thank you clalouha :)
That death is the one I'd found, what I'm trying to do is to confirm the death is for the Robert Chapman I'm interested in. The Smallburgh RD does include Catfield and Hickling.
The apparent absence of a burial in Hicking to match the death is what concerns me. The 1897 death could be for a different Robert Chapman - and the absence of a Hickling burial points quite strongly towards that being the case.
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Many thanks Yokel, I'd seen the baptism on FreeReg and felt that was the most likely subject to resolving the Hickling/Catfield birthplace issue on the different census records.
Hopefully a burial will turn up somewhere. A copy of the 1897 death certificate would be the alternative, but its a bit of a long shot to gamble the certificate cost on!
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In 1891 he does seem to be the only Robert Chapman of that sort of age in Smallburgh RD
In fact he may be the oldest Robert Chapman in Norfolk.
I wondered if he might have died in the Smallburgh workhouse/infirmary.
However, the Robert Chapman who died in Smallburgh in 1897 seems to have died in the appropriate sub district for Hickling (Ludham)
Page 39 in volume 4b is the first page of Smallburgh deaths in Sep 1897. Ten names, with apparently only five indexed on page 40 (presumably end of sub district)
(Same thing with Mary Ann Chapman in Dec 1890 and Robert junior in June 1893, both indexed on the first page for Smallburgh in those quarters)
Looking at the others on page 39 in Sep 1897, burials for eight of them can be found in the parish registers online.
Emma Trorey, age 74, buried 20 July, Hickling
Henry Ready, 88, buried 22 July, Waxham, of Gt Waxham Rectory (Hickling) - he was the Rector
John Beevor, 62, buried 27 July, Potter Heigham (abode Catfield)
Caroline Dack, 60, buried 13 Aug, Stalham (abode Catfield, late Stalham)
Four were buried in Ludham
Mary Rouse, 38, buried 7 July
John Knights, 73, buried 12 July
Elizabeth Crane, 63, buried 22 July
William Grapes, 69, buried 19 August
So it looks like it ought to be your Robert who died in Sep qtr 1897, either in Hickling or somewhere very nearby indeed. The absence of a burial record is strange!
John
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Thanks Jon. It is a strange one. I was trying to think over the weekend what else might have meant he wasn't buried in Hickling.
Apart from being buried in a neighbouring (not yet indexed) parish (which still seems odd if his family are at Hickling) some of the options could be cremation, donation to science, body not available for burial.
It seems a bit too early for cremation to be likely, especially for someone who spent their life in a rural area. For similar reasons I don't think body donation was that likely either.
Hickling is in close proximity to lots of water (various broads and the sea) so the possibility of a drowning without the body being found cannot be ruled out.
The more I think about it the more inclined I am to wait for the GRO to do lower cost pdf copies of register entries and get hold of this one. I'm far too curious now to just let it go!
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Thought I'd just add to what Jon said I'm inclined to think that it is your Robert dying in 1897 but the absence of a burial record is weird as their son Samuel is also buried in Hickling, I checked Sutton burials and Potter Heigham he's not there either, so I wondered if there was any kind of epidemic recorded I know that there is a separate 'cholera' cemetery in Upton upon Severn (near me) so wondered if something like that had happened to your Robert?
The other consideration is did he die whilst away from home? and where did all his children end up, could he have been visiting them, or in fact moved there after Mary Ann and Robert junior died?
It's annoying when you can't find people, when you know they definitely existed! I can't find a whole branch of mine!
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If he died in the workhouse and his body was not claimed by family or friends, he would have been buried with the other poor unfortunates who died in the workhouse.
Do you know where workhouse burials took place?
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Thanks claouha. There would be two likely candidates if Robert died elsewhere (but not living/staying with family). The first is Smallburgh Workhouse, the second might be Thorpe Asylum. Both had their own burial grounds. But as the death registration is Smallburgh, and as Jonw points out the sub-district looks like Ludham, it eliminates Thorpe Asylum and probably Smallburgh workhouse too.
So it is likely he either died in Hickling, or with family in a nearby parish, either of which you would normally expect to lead to a burial at Hickling.
It is strange.
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Thanks Dawn. Smallburgh had a small burial ground at the rear, although I'm not sure it was still in use that late. I think have also seen burial records for Smallburgh church saying they were from the workhouse.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Smallburgh/
He had a very large family, so I'd guess the risk of his body being unclaimed if he did die in the workhouse would have been very low. It would be a slight exaggeration to say he was related to everybody else living in Hickling, but only a slight one ;D
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I've just checked the Smallburgh church burial records:
Abode = Smallburgh Union
Alderton 1900
Howard 1902
Taylor 1904
Abode = Workhouse
Colman 1906
Whall(?) 1907
Nothing obvious prior to 1900, so maybe this is around the time the workhouse burial ground closed?
Fairly sure Robert didn't die or was buried there anyway. Even if he did die at the workhouse with no family to help I suspect the vicar at Hickling would still have made 'arrangements' for this long-standing resident to come home for burial.
Edited: Corrected typo in Whall(?)'s burial year.
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Found him!!
I went and had a look at the Waxham Deanery Monthly Magazine on the Hickling village history website and if you do control F to highlight all the Chapmans you get this on page 57 (of 355)
"I omitted inadvertently some time ago to record the death of Robert Chapman, who was one of the Fathers of the Parish. He died at an advanced age after a life of hard and continuous work, and his familiar figure cannot fail to be missed amongst us. His grandson, John Chapman, who lived for many years in this parish, has since died at Yarmouth at an early age, leaving a widow and family to mourn his loss. Much sympathy is felt for them in their bereavement."
So Mr Arthur A. T. Crosse, Vicar, was not quite as diligent as we thought there is no burial record because Mr Crosse forgot!!
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That's funny, I'd found the same entry about 10 mins ago and was switching on my steam-driven family history PC to check the details of the grandson John Chapman to confirm this is the same Robert. Thank you clalouha :)
However, I'm not sure that is entirely the answer - I think the Revd Crosse was saying he had omitted to record the death in the magazine (as was his habit), as opposed to recording Robert's burial in the register.
I checked the burial register into 1898 when the magazine entry was made, but there is nothing recorded. I assume that if accidently omitted from the burial register at the time of burial then the appropriate thing would have been for it to be added in the next available space in the register - unless vicars were prohibited from making retrospective entries?
What it does show is Robert was a much valued member of the community, which kind of supports my guess that Revd Crosse would have made arrangements for Robert to come home if he died a pauper elsewhere.
Frustrating that he doesn't mention anything about the burial!
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John Chapman the grandson was buried 30-03-1989 at Great Yarmouth. He was a son of Robert's son James Chapman born 1837.
The only Yarmouth burial in 1897 on FreeReg is Charles aged 46 - so another place where Robert wasn't buried :(
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Funnily enough my PC's connection dropped out just as I was about to send and had to reboot!
I know it's not quite the full answer and we can't know what he means by some time ago, annoyingly he didn't then write buried in this parish!