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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: robang66 on Sunday 19 February 17 21:48 GMT (UK)
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I have found two Andrew Ker's on ScotlandsPeople - both listed as son of Andrew Ker and Mary Blackbel/Blackbill. The first was born in Hawick in April 1808 and the second born in Hawick in 1814. Normally, I would think that the first son died, and when the second son was born 6 years later, they named him Andrew also.
However, I have Andrew b. 1808 married to Helen Renwick on 25 December 1829 in Jedburgh and subsequently having a daughter, Violet, who married James Grahamslaw in 1852 in Jedburgh before migrating to America and settling in Portland, Oregon.
If the theory of naming the second son after the first deceased son, then Andrew #2 would be a youthful 15 when he married.
I cannot find a death record but do have the marriage record for Andrew and Helen.
I would appreciate any direction. Thanks in advance.
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According to the 1841,1851,1861 census Andrew Kerr was a Mason/builder living in Jedburgh (states born in Jedburgh circa 1808) Helen his wife place of birth varies between Hobkirk and Jedburgh and their marriage on Scotlandspeople states Hobkirk - Violet their daugther would suggest that Helen's mother was called Violet
thier Violet daughter was a domestic servant in Jedburgh 1851 census
Looking at the record the family could be Non-conformist, so some of the record will not show up on Scotlandspeople
Also found a family Andrew Ker & Mary Ker living in Littledeanlees (Crailing) nr Jedburgh in the 1841
census
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Thanks for your data. It really confirms that I have the correct Andrew, Helen and Violet. Still curious why there was another son, Andrew. You were absolutely spot on about the name Violet. Seems her grandmother and great=grandmother were Violets, (still need records of some kind, but certainly a strong connection, I feel). Thanks again.
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Hi
There is a death for an Andrew Kerr in Jedburgh in 1876 aged 68. I also note that in the Scottish Wills index there is an entry for an Andrew Kerr, Mason, Jedburgh died 3 May 1876 at Jedburgh, intestate. (Record showing as an inventory). Given that there is only the one death showing for Andrew Kerr in Jedburgh in 1876 might this be your man?
William
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Absolutely! This all fits in nicely with Andrew #1. Thanks so much for the data. Robyn
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Just to add there is this death notice from The Southern Reporter 11th May 1876
"At 67 Canongate, Jedburgh, on the 3rd inst. , Andrew Kerr, mason, in the 69th year of his age".
His death cert.on Scotland's People will hopefully give you his parents' names.
William
Added The Calendar of Confirmations states that confirmation was granted at Jedburgh 29 May 1876 to Helen Renwick or Kerr, Canongate of Jedburgh, Executrix dative, qua relict(i.e widow).
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Wonderful! Thanks so much for your expertise. Robyn
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I'd just like to state that it's really important to get that death record to confirm you've got the right guy.
In my experience researching family from Hawick, if someone was born in Hawick, he wouldn't say he was born in Jedburgh. Also, the second Andrew born in 1814 would not have been named Andrew unless his brother born in 1808 had died.
It's possible that there was another Andrew Ker who was born in Jedburgh circa 1808 to another couple. My hunch would be that he might have been a cousin to the Andrew born in Hawick in 1814.
None of that means you are automatically wrong, of course, but you definitely need confirmation.
I hope you'll post a follow-up once you know for sure; I'd like to know how it turns out.
Good luck in your search!
Josephine
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Thanks, Josephine. You've given me a couple of new lines to research now. I will definitely post results when I check out your suggestions. It may be another week (vacation) but I will get back to you. Thanks again. Robyn
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In principle yes, but the older death certificates can problems too - parents information depends on who is registering the death and their knowledge of persons family for example if a son in law or a non relative, etc registers it - I had one of my elderly great grandparents listed wrong by her grand daughter's husband had put her grandmother's name on it as the mother, because of lack of knowledge. - so it pays to double check
also, it is not uncommon for a children born in one place in the Borders to be christened in another especiallt if the family are non-conformist - especially between Hawick and Jedburgh parish areas as the family ties are very close
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Those are all valid points, terianne; that's why it's important (and usually necessary) to search for as much corroboration as possible to prove we're following the correct line.
Andrew Ker was not an uncommon name. Just because there was one baptized in Hawick in 1814 doesn't automatically mean he was the same person as the Andrew Ker who was born in Jedburgh circa 1808 and died in 1876. As you pointed out, some people were non-conformists and were not necessarily baptized in the same town or city where they were born; in addition, not all church records have survived. So the 1814 baptism might be for Violet's father but it might not. (The 1808 baptism most definitely is not, unless there were two Andrew Ker + Mary Blackbel/bill couples who were having children at around the same time.)
Consulting the 1876 death record and the will would be a good start and should be helpful in proving the relationship between the Andrew Ker who was the father of Violet Ker (who married James Grahamslaw). At least that's the hope.
The death record should indicate the names of Andrew Ker's parents; if they're the same parents as the ones in the 1814 baptism, then that's a good reason to spend time researching that family; if they're someone else, then that's a good reason to spend time researching them. As you stated, records can contain erroneous information, so the hope would be to find other documentation that would confirm or correct the information that has already been found. Sometimes that is more straightforward than at other times, depending on the records that are still available.
Regards,
Josephine
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I have now found the 1876 death certificate for Andrew Kerr, (mason) married to Helen Renwick, but it shows his parents as ROBERT Kerr and JANET BOYD. He died at 67 Canongate, Jedburgh. Now another set of parents' names to muddy the waters. I thought I was looking for Andrew Kerr and Mary Blakebell, now it seems I should be looking for Robert Kerr and Janet Boyd. ScotlandsPeople becomes expensive after awhile, doesn't it? I have found nothing else.
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Some free searches which might help for 1841 1851 & 1861 census' for Scottish borders check out Maxwell ancestry - Scotlandspeople 1881 (lds) census
Igi/lds family search but also check the doner is official as submitted private enters can have errors - use as a guide and check where double - good aid
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Thanks for the pointers. Much appreciated.
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It's good that you purchased the death record, Robyn; at least now you won't waste credits and time following the wrong family line.
I hope you'll be able to find more info on Andrew's parents, etc. The key is to prove the relationship (as much as possible) each step of the way and not jump ahead.
Regards,
Josephine
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Robyn,
I've just been looking at some online trees, and now I'm wondering about your starting point for your research. Have you got Violet's birth, baptism, marriage or death records? Do any or all of those records list her parents' names as Andrew Ker(r) and Helen Renwick?
I hope I don't sound too pushy; I'd just hate to steer you in the right direction in one respect but ultimately in the wrong direction (if that makes sense).
(The online trees that I've seen aren't accurate, according to the death record you've just gotten.)
Regards,
Josephine
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Hi Josephine: You are certainly not pushing. Once I found that certificate, I suspected that I am going to have to change several 'ancestors', data and dates. I hesitate to delete them until I have documentation proving my new input. May I please send you a PM?
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Hi Josephine: You are certainly not pushing. Once I found that certificate, I suspected that I am going to have to change several 'ancestors', data and dates. I hesitate to delete them until I have documentation proving my new input. May I please send you a PM?
Yes, of course, feel free to PM me.
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Update: I believe I have found newspaper notices pertaining to the deaths of Violet (nee Kerr) and James Grahamslaw. I am in the process of sharing that info with Robyn, so she can hopefully order their death records to prove she's got the right folks.
Regards,
Josephine
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I'm posting my transcripts of the newspaper articles I found, for the benefit of anyone researching this couple, with the caveat that I have not proven they pertain to the couple in question.
I've typed them up as they were printed, typos and spelling errors included. I've added italics to make it easier to read.
It's a very sad story.
Daily Columnist (Victoria, British Columbia, Canada)
March 9, 1880
Supposed Suicide at Portland of a Former Victorian.
About 10 o’clock Tuesday night the watchman of the O.S.N. Co.’s lower dock found a coat, vest and hat on one of the slips, and on searching the coat, found a memorandum book belonging to James Grahamslaw, a ship carpenter. On one of the pages was written with a lead pencil in a legible hand the following:
PORTLAND, Oregon, Feb. 27, 1880.
To whoos hands this book should fall into – Please let it be known that I have Parted from my wife and greaves me to destraction. I cant settle to work and I cant live without it. I have sold every thing I had and drank it all. I have made up my mind to comit a deed of self destruction which I hope the Lord will have mercy on my sool – for I am actually crazy.
JAMES GRAHAMSLAW.
Carpenter.
No blame on any one but myself.
Nothing is definitely known as to whether Grahamslaw committed suicide or not, but the facts of his clothes being found, the above letter threatening self-destruction, and his disappearance since Tuesday night, indicate that he put his threats into execution. The probability is that he crawled under the door to the edge of the slip, and dropped silently into the water, the surface of which was only four feet below him. Had he jumped from the edge of the dock the splash caused by his fall would have attracted the attention of the watchman. The river in front of the dock was dragged yesterday, but no traces of the body could be found. It is thought that domestic trouble prompted the deed. The following letter was found in his memorandum book (it evidently had been copied and mailed,) and shows that his wife had left him on account of his inebrity:
SUNDAY, PORTLAND, Jan. 25, 1880.
DEAR VIOLET: – I sit down with an uneasy mind to write you a few lines asking forgiveness for my past unkindness to you, and I ask you as a favor to meet me at postoffice any night before Saturday, between 7 and 8 o’clock, as I have some money to give to you. I will be there every night after this. Hoping you will receive this in time, and I do assure you that I am willing to make reparation for what I have done, and change my ways to your satisfaction, for it grieves me to the hart to think we have lived so long together and then come to this at last. Believe me in earnest, Dear Violet, and I assure you, you will have no cause to complain in the future. I will Join any temperance society you life if you wish me for I am heartily tired of the way I am living and I think you can’t be happy in a strange house.
I now bid you good night hoping to meet you some night next week and I feel ashured everything will come right, as you have my hart and first love. I remain your loving husband.
JAS. GRAHAMSLAW.
I admit it has been all my fault rnd no one to blame but myself.
Grahamslaw was a good-natured, hard-working Scotchman somewhat addicted to drink and worked for the O.S.N. Co. at boat building. He has been before the police court several times and fined for drunkenness, but was not considered a rough character. – Oregonian.
The Oregon Daily Journal
May 12, 1910
DEATHS ... GRAHAMSHAW – Violet Grahamshaw, Good Samaritan hospital, May 10, age 72; old age.
Regards,
Josephine
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I'm interested in the name Grahamslaw so I went looking for James on Scotlandspeople. He shows up in the 1851 census of Jedburgh, aged 18, and a cabinetmaker, born Jedburgh. He will be the James Grahamslaw born at Jedburgh in 1833 to Ruther Grahamslaw and his wife Elspeth Slater. Ruther was an innkeeper - so James would have been around strong drink from an early age! - and also one of the magistrates of Jedburgh.
Harry
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Quiet a few grahamslaw in roxburghshire - some of my family married into the ones around Kelso, morebattle, Jed area
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I had 4 x great-grandparents in Kelso called John Stewart, butcher, and Jean Grahamslaw. She seems to be the Jean born at Ednam in 1765 to John Grahamslaw and Elspeth Aitken.
Harry
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It's funny -- I can't recall coming across the name Grahamslaw before I saw this query here on Rootschat, but I probably focus on the names I'm looking for and don't notice other names unless they strike me as being especially unusual.
The interesting thing to me is that there are at least five online trees that list this particular James Grahamslaw as dying circa 1872 in the Virgin Islands. If he actually committed suicide in 1880 in Portland, Oregon, I wonder where that other info originated. It might have started with one tree and then been copied by the others.
As mentioned in my previous post, I haven't proven that this is the correct couple. To do that, you'd have to purchase their death records and hope the info matches other known facts.
The lesson in all this surely would be: while you can rely on online trees for clues, you should never rely on them for facts until you've proven the details yourself.
Regards,
Josephine
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It's one of those surnames that originated as a place-name. It's near Kelso. I've never been there, but it seems to be just a farm now.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x4887634c878386db:0xcf3e4e9c4a081871!2m19!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m13!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!3m1!7e115!4s/maps/place/Grahamslaw%2BKelso/@55.540027,-2.4405458,3a,75y,140.7h,90t/data%3D*213m4*211e1*213m2*211sKl4-NFfjgqNbs3pu_ovJ6Q*212e0*214m2*213m1*211s0x0:0xcf3e4e9c4a081871!5sGrahamslaw+Kelso+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sKl4-NFfjgqNbs3pu_ovJ6Q&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqiPGYpvLSAhWFKMAKHXuIBGkQpx8IcjAO
Harry
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Harry
Your James rang a bell
Ruther and Elspeth had two James" one born 1823 but died 20 Jun 1825 the second born abt 1834 a cabinetmaker
Ruther & Elspeth & sons William 1819-1836 & James are buried at Jedburgh Abbey
They had at least 8 kids
Ruther parents were William G & Elizabeth Rutherford his brother Thomas' son Robert marked my gr gr grandmother's sister Margaret Shiel
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Yes, I agree with you about the parentage of Ruther Grahamslaw. I don't know if his lot were related to the Ednam Grahamslaws or not - probably they were, far back in time.
Harry
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Ruther's parents are also buried at Jed Abbey - not sure where they were born - the family lived in the yetholm / Linton area
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Had a look on the Maxwell site and ruther's sons were well known to the courts
Walter & George had paternity cases
George appears on the prison register 6 times states as mason then labourer - might look into this further
Also found Isobel Grahamslaw 1748-1779 age 30 from Ednam admitted to Kelso dispensary 29.11.1778
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I wrote an article for the BFHS journal in 2011 about my Stewart ancestors in Kelso, some of whom were involved in running the Dispensary.
I have a lot of material about Grahamslaws in the past. In 1493 William Grymyslaw of Minto treasonably brought in the English of Tynedale who stole 100 head of cows and oxen, 100 sheep, 20 horses and mares and sundry utensils furth of Minto.
In 1502 Thomas Grymislaw and his accomplices, the King's rebels, were named in connection with the murder of David Henrisoune at Maxton and the stealing of livestock. And a David Oliver is accused of "art and part" with Thomas and Andrew Grymislaw in their "theftuous deeds".
It's a wonder there are any Grahamslaws left today as in 1604 a band of Turnbulls were indicted for the slaughter of William, James, John, Robert, Andrew and Thomas Grahamslaw of Little Newton, in what looks like an attempted genocide. Margaret Sanderson mentions this family, who lived in a peel tower, in her book "Mary Stewart's People" (Mercat Press, 1987).
In 1710 Alexander Graemslaw of Maxwellheugh was "dilated for bringing in cabbage to his house the last Lord's Day between sermons", his excuse being that he had had to work late at the corn mill on Saturday night and didn't have time to bring in his cabbages then.
Harry