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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Katiebcan on Tuesday 21 February 17 18:29 GMT (UK)
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Hello, I'm still searching, without much luck I'm sorry to say, for more information on my late father, Alexander Reid McKay born February 5, 1923 in Glasgow. I did find something--Fife School Records, "Leaving Certificate, Sat July 9, 1938 which would have made him 15 which is when I understand students usually finish school in Scotland. (I'm from Canada). Would anyone be able to access this record and tell me if there is any additional information, such as school this Alexander McKay graduated from. Of course I'm assuming "Leaving Certificate" means graduation. He told us he grew up in Glasgow, Perth, Dundee. I've written schools in Perth and found registration for his adopted brothers (possibly half-brothers) but nothing for him. We have learned since his death that he fabricated a lot of his life story which makes this search very difficult. If anyone has access to this newspaper record and could see if there is any other information listed, my family would be very grateful for your help.
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Well the leaving certificate announcement for his class is published in the Fife Free Press & Kirkcaldy Guardian on Saturday, July 9, 1938 and that an Alexander McKay attended Buckhaven but how positive are you this is your man considering it is such a common name?
If you don't have this clipping send me a PM with your email and a copy will be on its way.
And, if you post his parents and his father's occupation as well as his siblings it might help in tracking his movements.
Don
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At that time the school leaving age was 14. If you had a satisfactory standard of education and a job to go to, you could apply for an exemption, which would allow you to leave at 13 1/2.
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Alexander McKay attended Buckhaven but how positive are you this is your man considering it is such a common name?
I would ask the same especially on the basis "He told us he grew up in Glasgow, Perth, Dundee" with no mention of Fife (a County separate from the places he named) where he finished his schooling?
Annie
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Hello,
Thank you all for your interest. We have a birth certificate showing that our Dad was born Alexander Reid McKay on Feb 3, 1923 on Albert Street, Glasgow to a Margaret McKay, tea room waitress. No further information on the certificate. He came to live with Robert Cochrane Harvey and Margaret Ann Burke Harvey in Glasgow sometime around 1930--we knew them to be our grandparents. They had two younger sons, our uncles James Harvey and Richard Harvey. Our dad immigrated with his "parents" to Canada in 1948--his brothers had come earlier to go to university. My grandfather died in Canada in 1955, and my grandmother and uncles returned to Scotland in their later years and all died there. My Dad was very close with his maternal aunt, Elizabeth Burke--who he listed as his next of kin on his RAF information, and her older brother Willy Burke. They remained in Scotland their entire lives. We suspect either his Aunt Lizzy or his "adopted" mother, Margaret Ann Burke Harvey, may have been his birth mother. Coincidentally like the Margaret McKay shown on his birth certificate, both our Great Aunt Lizzy and grandmother, Margaret McKay were tearoom waitresses. They worked at Lockhart's tearoom. We have had no luck finding the Margaret McKay of his birth certificate. Our grandfather Robert Cochrane Harvey had three other brothers, who lived in Glasgow and one of those brothers Hugh Harvey, a grocer in Glasgow, had three or four daughters. His other uncles and his Aunt Elizabeth had no children, nor did his brothers. So we are a very small family, just my sister and I left. It seems much of what he told us about his life in Scotland was not true, such as the schools he attended--we have checked with those two schools and there was no one registered by that name. Our grandfather was a theatre manager who travelled around Scotland opening new theatres, hence the possibility that Alexander Mckay who graduated from a school in Fife in 1938 was our Dad. We would love to unravel this mystery, mainly how he came to live with the Harvey's around 1930 and where he was before that. I will add one more thing--although he came over to Canada using his birth name, it seems he changed his name immediately on arriving here with his parents and from that day forward he was known by a different name, Kaye Burke Harvey. I'm happy to supply any other information and thank everyone for their interest and help.
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What no. in Albert Street, Glasgow was Alexander Reid McKay born & is it listed under Townhead or Govan or does it just say Glasgow?
Annie
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Valuation Rolls have a list of MacKays although the variant is nothing to worry about.
1925
Ref. No. VR010201368
Seems to be a tenement block although it must be a mile high & a mile wide with the differences in no's ???
MACKAY JOHN
Tenant
HOUSE 138 ALBERT STREET TOWNHEAD, GLASGOW
MACKAY ANGUS
Tenant
HOUSE 157 ALBERT STREET TOWNHEAD
MACKAY JOHN E
Tenant
HOUSE 239 ALBERT STREET TOWNHEAD
MACKAY ELIZABETH MRS
Tenant
HOUSE 107 ALBERT STREET TOWNHEAD
MACKAY JOHN
Tenant
HOUSE 154 ALBERT STREET TOWNHEAD
May be worth a look at 1930 to see what's there & whether you find the Harvey's & MacKays near to each other?
I haven't looked at the records, only the index.
Annie
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The address in Glasgow shown on his birth certificate was 73 Albert Street.
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Hi Katie,
Does it give an area in Glasgow, should be along the top line on the cert. before Burgh of Glasgow if that's what's on it?
Annie
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Hi Katie,
You may not want to answer this but...
What yrs were the younger siblings born, when were they in Perth & what School did they attend?
As Alexander R was older, he may have been at a different school i.e. High School while the brothers/half brother/step-brothers were at Primary School?
I may be able to help with what would have been the nearest High School to which ever Primary School the younger ones attended?
If you have an Address that may also help as there were separate Catholic & Protestant schools too in different areas?
Annie
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Do you recall any specific things, names of places mentioned i.e. landmarks in any of the areas he lived?
I know there were theatres in both Perth & Dundee but I have no knowledge of any near Buckhaven in Fife, not to say there wasn't.
The nearest 'main' towns to there would have been Leven & Kirkcaldy but maybe someone with more knowledge of that area can verify whether there was/wasn't a theatre around that area?
Annie
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I don't think I can be of any real help but I have a couple of questions/wild theories:
Since the mother's name on Alexander's b/c was Margaret, and his 'adopted' mother's name was Margaret, and both Margaret's were Waitresses, I am wondering if they may be one and the same.
Do you have the marriage certificate of Robert and Margaret Burke? Did they marry after the birth of Alexander?
I am wondering if McKay was the surname of Alexander's biological father, and there was a mix up when Alexander's birth was registered, and Margaret's surname should have been written as Burke rather than McKay? It may be when the family moved to Canada Alexander decided to revert to his real birth name as he was starting a new life, or perhaps his McKay father had died so he felt able to revert to his 'proper' surname?
Just a theory. I don't know if or how this could be checked or backed up with documentation.
Added: It might be worth checking the birth certificates of Alexander's siblings too. Just rethinking. Were his siblings older, hence the marriage of Robert and Margaret taking place prior to Alexander's birth? Maybe that is my theory gone wrong .... :-\
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Good theories Ruskie ;)
Check Reply #4 though...
"He came to live with Robert Cochrane Harvey and Margaret Ann Burke Harvey in Glasgow sometime around 1930--we knew them to be our grandparents. They had two younger sons, our uncles James Harvey and Richard Harvey"
This is what makes me wonder if in fact Alexander did go to school in Perth, was he at High School while they were at Primary School?
It would be interesting to hear of any landmark places which could be positively identified as 'truth' given a lot of Alexander's stories were fabricated.
When it comes to landmarks, it's difficult to describe something unless you've actually seen it i.e. this would be a 'tell tale' of whether he was telling at least some truth?
Annie
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I forgot to ask what the maiden name of Margaret & Lizzie's mum was & what was the forename of their father?
As Alexander was illegitimate, Reid would possibly be an indication of his father's surname if it isn't the mother's maiden name?
Annie
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Annie, Do you think it would be wise for Katie to purchase all the certificates related to this family? (I note you are asking about maiden names etc). I did wonder if knowing what each birth, marriage and death certificates says, might reveal some extra clues.
I wonder where the information about Alexander coming to live with Robert and Margaret in 1930 came from? Where was Alexander living between his birth in 1923 and 1930? If his mother was Margaret McKay, might she have died and Alexander was adopted (formally or informally) by Robert and Margaret? Unsure of dates of formal adoption in Scotland, but might it be worth checking. Also, perhaps looking a death for Margaret McKay?
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Ruskie,
Yes, the marriage for Robert and Margaret & their birth certs. could throw up a clue or 2 but on the other hand they may not but even if it's to eliminate Alexander's forename & middle name as a family name which may in turn be the father's forename & surname although your theory on an error with McKay on the birth cert. instead of Burke may be correct too?
I also think your idea of looking for a death for a Margaret M(a)cKay is worth a search around that time (from birth until 1930)
A wee bit more rummaging needed I think?
Likewise, it would be interesting to know where Alexander was from birth until 1930?
Such a pity we don't have later census records like other countries.
I do like his chosen name of Kaye though.....
Katie, was it pronounced as 'Ky' as in sky?
Annie
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Do you have the marriage certificate of Robert and Margaret Burke? Did they marry after the birth of Alexander?
Yes Ruskie....3 years later, wonder what her occupation was on marriage?
HARVEY ROBERT COCHRANE to BURKE MARGARET ANNIE
1926
644/12 111
Hillhead
Looks like the household in 1930?
HARVEY ROBERT C
11 STRATHCLYDE STREET, GLASGOW
VR010201455
Annie
Added The Valuation Rolls only give the Tenant's name i.e. not like a census!
Would be interesting to know where Margaret was in 1925/1920 if we knew who her parents were as it would be her father on the VR's?
Wouldn't give her name but would maybe help trace near neighbours/potential father?
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I overlooked that Annie - Kaye is a very odd choice of a name. Significant perhaps? Or does it relate to McKay? :-\
I know that Margaret was a fairly common name in Scotland, but I keep wondering if Margaret McKay = Margaret Burke especially given they had the same occupation .... :-\
Another possibility - Margaret Burke was previously married to a Mr McKay. They produced Alexander. Maybe Mr McKay was dead before Alexander was born hence no father's name on the birth certificate? Women sometimes remarry under their maiden name. The marriage certificate of Robert and Margaret might say she had been previously married.
Margaret Burke may have been illegitimate or her mother remarried, which may be where the McKay or Reid families come in. I would try to follow Margaret's line back.
More difficult with Scottish 1911 census but if this was in England I would be hunting around in 1911 for these people hoping to throw up some clues. :)
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My thought too Ruskie,
"Or does it relate to McKay", I would say so, clever idea!
Yes, a previous marriage could be likely?
I thought though, that a married/widowed woman could register the birth with father's name, even though he was deceased but not 100% on that, don't think I've had one myself (Scotland)?
I don't have time to search SP for a likely previous marriage, got to go out sadly!
Annie
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Yes, the baby of a married woman would be given her husband's surname even if he was dead or if the child was not his (unless the woman admitted otherwise). I thought there may have been a mix up or misunderstanding when registering the birth which led to the father's name being omitted. :-\
I think this is one of the least likely scenarios but the Robert/Margaret marriage certificate should clear that up (unless fibs were told ;)).
I think some searching and certificate purchasing is required for some documented proof, as my imagination is running overtime and getting Katie nowhere, :P ;D
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Hello all,
Thank you for all the responses, ideas, and questions. Here's what else I can tell you in response to those questions posed--tried to keep it brief:
Our Dad Alexander Reid McKay was born 07/02/1923, three years before the marriage of our grandfather, Robert Cochrane Harvey and Margaret Harvey, (04/05/1926)--that was an irregular" marriage--she was shown as Spinster--so not married previously to someone who might have been Alexander's Dad as someone speculated. They gave birth to their son James when they were living at 52 Main St, Thornliebank on 10/11/26 and son Richard 11/06/1930--same address. By then Robert was managing Alhambra Theatre in Perth and living in the White Horse Hotel there. It appears that sometime in the early 1930s our Dad, Alexander, came to live with them. Our Uncle James told a friend that our Dad was dropped off by a strange lady at their house when James and Richard were young--not yet in school--that is how we've come to suspect our Dad was seven or eight at the time he came to live with them.
In 1934 Robert was appointed Manager of Kings Theatre in Dundee and the family were living there by then as my Uncles attended Craigie Primary school and Morgan Academy (from 1934-1937). There was no record of our Dad Alexander attending either of those schools. We know the family was in Inverness at some point as well as our Grandfather Robert was later appointed northern Supervisor for Caledonian Associated Cinemas. We wonder if maybe our Dad, Alexander, may have stayed in Glasgow with Aunt Lizzy (Elizabeth Burke) as he commented that he used to wait after school in the tearoom where she worked (she was a cook not a waitress as I earlier suggested), and then would walk home with her.
In 1945 we know Aunt Elizabeth Burke and Uncle Willy Burke both lived at 22 Summerlea Road, Thirnliebank--they were brother and sister and neither ever married.
One other question posed was where the name Kaye Burke Harvey came from--I asked our Dad that when I was little and he told me that his mother gave him that name because she liked it--we now assume it came from McKay. And Burke was her maiden name. Kaye was pronounced Kye.
Hope this additional detail helps. And thanks again for all your suggestions and questions. So very much appreciated.
I can supply additional information on the Burkes and Harvey's if it would be helpful. Our grandfather had four brothers, not three as I said earlier. And Margaret had an older brother, Thomas, as well as Elizabeth and William.
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Thanks Katie for further info.
Can you give us the names of Margaret's parents please & what Margaret's occupation was when she married & who were the witnesses?
Does Alexander's birth with Margaret MacKay's name, actually say Mother or other (meaning another relationship such as aunt)?
So, it looks as though Alexander was schooled in Glasgow, not Fife?
I used to frequent The White Horse in my youth!
I had no idea that Perth Theatre was previously named Alhambra Theatre!
Annie
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Katie, when I read your last post my thought was that Alexander McKay may have simply been adopted by the Harveys.
If both Margarets and Lizzie worked at the tea rooms, they probably knew each other. Margaret McKay had a baby out of wedlock and either died or couldn't look after him, so Margaret Harvey took him on. Just another of my wild theories.
I would look for both Margarets in the1911 census.
I would look for a death for Margaret McKay between 1923 and 1930.
I would look for a marriage for Margaret McKay between 1923 and 1930 in case her new husband did not want the child, or in case they could not look after him.
Some further digging might find a Mr Reid either working at the same place, or living near Margaret McKay.
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Katie,
Can you confirm the 'Craigie' in your last post as to whether Perth or Dundee please?
I know Craigie in Perth but I also know there was a 'Craigie' in Dundee.
Having read your post with the name 'Craigie' made me wonder?
You may want to check out this post (which I initiated) & get in touch with the 'McKay' connection on there.....may be a connection if it was Craigie in Perth?
You didn't say where the family lived/went to school in Perth apart from your g/father being at the White Horse Hotel...did they live there when the children were at school in Perth?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=747415.0
Annie
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Hi All
For Annie
You new the Alhambra as the Odeon in Kinoull street white horse just round the corner in North William street I think it is.
Yours Aye
Brucel
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Yes Bruce,
I remember the 'Saturday Club" & also the entrance on West Mill Street (road running from North Methven St. to Kinnoull St).
Same Street as Andy Wingates place (if you remember it)?
There used to be toilets at the Kinnoull St. end on the right side.
Takes me back a long time ;D
http://www.scottishcinemas.org.uk/scotland/perth/odeon.html
Annie
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Hi Annie
The one on west mill street/ Murray street was the play house.(still there)
Next door was Perth foundry now the foundry bar on the other side was the scrap merchant but I thought that was Powrie's Andy Windgates was up where Morrison's supermarket and the St. Catherine especially retail park is.
Next to the Odeon in kinnoull street on one side nearest atholl street was Gloags whiskey bond on the other side was the oasis cafe.
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Ah, probably right Bruce,
Long time ago, I just recall taking bags of rags which they weighed & gave you £'s :-\
Actually, was it West Mill St or just Mill St?
My father had a TV/Radio repair shop on West Mill St, just down from the City Mills many moons ago but did West Mill St. run right down across Methven St. to Kinnoull St?
My brother was born 3 North Methven St. & the Landlady had the Typewriter Shop on that street, up nearer the main road where the traffic lights are.
Annie
P.S. I had always thought they 2 entrances were the same building ;)
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Annie
Rather than highjack post I have sent you a PM
Yours Aye
BruceL
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I have found an Alexander Reid McKay (unmarried, in Glasgow), not 'our Alexander' but could be a link?
He was in the Army (Short Service), Card No. 7705, Reg. No. No. 660(7)? 5th Bat. of Scottish Rifles with Regimental No. 44348 (sorry I don't have time to post everything as I have to be out early tomorrow) but his Sister is named as Fanny Reid, Mother has no forename, Mrs McKay :-\
Address is 585 New City Rd, Glasgow!
There's also a mention of Hamilton (Lanarkshire) but I can't make out the writing.
Born 1877, Specialist Military Qualification: Police!! How apt as we need a Detective on the subject in hand ;D
Just posting this for future ref. as it may be of use at some point & the names are not common, full name of Alexander Reid M(a)cKay!!
Parts of the same doc. have both spellings (McKay/MacKay)!
Attested 05 Dec 1915 (Glasgow) although not signed until 01 Apr 1916, Aged 38 yrs, Occ, Postman (GPO) = General Post Office.
Annie
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Hi all,
In response to Rosinish's inquiry, Margaret Annie Burke's parents were Thomas Burke born 1853, Printfield Labourer and Annie Young Burke born 1865 or 1866. In 1901 they lived at Dairy Lane, Eastwood and earlier, in 1891, they lived at 79 Herriot St, Pollockshaws. Annie's father was William Young and her mother, Christina McCallum. We have found census info with this information.
The marriage certificate of my grandparents, Robert Cochrane Harvey and Margaret Annie Burke shows the witnesses to be Jane McNaughton Herve and John Herve of 107 Gourlay Street, Glasgow. It also shows Margaret Annie was a Spinster. She was a tea room waitress and we believe worked at Lockhart's Tea Room along with her older sister Lizzy who was a cook (not waitress as I originally posted).
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Hello all,
In response to Annie's inquiry about school attendance in Perth, we thought our Dad went to school there but found no record at the schools his brothers attended--our oldest uncle, James, attended Craigie Primary briefly in Perth (1934) and then Morgan Academy (1934-37) and Uncle Richard attended Morgan Academy (1935-1937). As the family resided in Glasgow before moving to Perth, we assume our dad and uncles all attended school in Glasgow for a few years.
We believe in all of the years that our Dad spent in Scotland before emigrating with Robert and Margaret to Canada in 1948, he was never publically acknowledged as their son--we found a newspaper article in the Dundee Courier reported by Mrs Thomas Malcolm of 50 Rose Crescent Perth, that stated our grandfather and his wife would sail from Liverpool to Canada to join their two sons, James and Richard, who were already in Canada. We know Dad travelled with them as we have found the ship records and the three of them shared a stateroom. And we know that pretty much from the time they arrived in Canada, my Dad used the name Kaye Burke Harvey--no more Alexander Reid McKay. So to us there isn't much doubt in our minds that he was our Grandmother's natural son.
Don't know if this information will be useful but can't hurt.
And thanks again for everyone's interest, ideas and help. I'll continue to answer any questions anyone has that might help us get closer to this. I have written to the City of Fife inquiring about school records from Buckhaven to see if the Alexander McKay who graduated from there in 1948 was our Dad--shot in the dark but we'll see!
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Hi All
To the best of my knowledge Morgan Academy is in Dundee
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Hi Bruce, thank you for your reply. Is it possible that our uncle would have lived in Perth and attended school in Dundee?
Our Dad, Alexander, implied he too went to Morgan Academy with his brothers but there is no record of him there or his younger brother Richard. We do have the record there for brother James though. We were led to believe there is some connection with our Dad and Dundee...if only we had a bit more information to go on...
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Morgan academy is in Dundee it sits between Forfar road and Pitkerro road also to confuse things a bit more there's an area called Craigiebank which boarders Pikerro Road so close to Mogan academy whether there was a Craigie Primary there I don't know. Also unlikely that your uncles would have lived in Perth and travelled to Dundee for school