RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: brigidmac on Wednesday 22 February 17 17:49 GMT (UK)
-
I have spent hours researching a relative who seems particularly averse to official documents
I have found her and her 3 children on census from 1861 to 1911
but she doesnt seem to have married officially
or registered her children
the deceased husband
and parents given on her death cert 1915 also seem to be fictitous
Anyoone else had this kind of problem
-
Registration of births was compulsory from 1875.
Registrationd had to be made within 42 days of the birth.
-
Are we talking about a Scottish death certificate? As far as I am aware parents aren't named on English death certs.
Would you like to share her name, date and place of birth with us Rootschatters to see if we can help at all?
-
Registration of births was compulsory from 1875.
Registrationd had to be made within 42 days of the birth.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=755898.msg6055186#msg6055186
Stan
-
KG driving licences are compulsery but a lot of people get away with not doing it
but no-one can force people to tell truth on registration
also her son may have been told he was named after a deceased father so thats the name he put on registration
yes Girl Guide it's a Scots lady
Thread on scottish forum
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756853.new#new
Her name is Margaret Love
she died age 75
1915 in Shettlestone Lanarkshire Scotland where she seems to have lived most of her life .
1885-1905 shes on electoral registers in Lightburn area
and with or near her son john b approx 1863 on censuses 1911 1901 1891 as an ag lab 1881 farm worker
In 1871 she is aged 35 with her children Margaret love aged14 Isabella aged 11 and John aged 4
and a brother John Love aged 33 which made me think she was using her maiden name
also young Margaret Love has her father As being William Muir deceased on her wedding cert
in 1861 Margaret Muir aged 4 is with a grandfather William Manners
his step daughter Margaret Manners
and her sister named as Isabela Lurtch
there is a Margaret Love 10th daughter of James + Eizabeth Love whose age is similar but shes down as a 17 yearold seamstress with her parents in 1861
Any new eyes on this ...even any theories
-
Thanks Stan ..the 1st thing I noticed about the registrations was the cost
surely for a young girl that would be a reason not to register her child and once she'd got away with the first
she may have assumed it was ok not to bother for the other either .
marriages or deaths for her other children Isabelle John could named different fathers
The parents who were named on Margaret Love s death cert were James and jeannie Birrell coal miner deceased if anyone wants to try and find them but i think that would be a wild goose chase
the problem is there are so many Margaret Loves in Lanarkshire ..even just in Shettleston
-
I have never found a marriage record for my 4 x great grandparents. I suspect that he was already married to someone else ::)
They had seven daughters, all but the first born after 1837. Some of their births were registered, some not. None of them appears to have been christened, though the five who lived to adulthood all married in church.
I've had to rely on the census and the marriage certificates of the daughters to prove that they actually existed!
Bev
-
Just adding the 1871 census transcription for anyone trying to help
Lightburn Road, Shettleston (Barony), Shettleston, Lanarkshire
Margaret Love Head Unmarried 35 1836 Out Door Worker Glasgow, Lanarkshire,
James Love Brother 33 1838 Collier Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Margaret Love Daughter 14 1857 Bleachfield Worker Lightburn, Lanarkshire,
Isabella Love Daughter 11 1860 Lightburn, Lanarkshire, Scotland
John Love Son 4 1867 Lightburn, Lanarkshire, Scotland
you probably have these details but just in case.......
Isabella Love
Birth Date: 6 Aug 1860
Birth Place: Shettleston,Lanark,Scotland
Mother: Margaret Love
FHL Film Number: 6035516
Margaret Love
Birth Date: 10 Apr 1857
Birth Place: Shettleston,Lanark,Scotland
Mother: Margaret Love
FHL Film Number: 6035516
detail from Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
-
Brigid, just adding link to the ongoing post on the Scottish board www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756853.0 for additional background.
To recap on bits from there on this thread. Possible births for Margaret Love's children from the index on Family Search (original images on SP):
Margaret 1857 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQDS-GTL
Isabella 1860 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQD9-YVM
John 1862 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQGQ-HXP
The daughters as we discussed earlier show with different surnames in 1861. Likely the surname of their reputed fathers. Not uncommon really.
Monica :)
-
monica you beat me too it
I was going to suggest keeping this as a general chat
some intersting stories already
and the one on scottish forum board for specifics
-
That would work :) Just good to add the other link because Rchatters always rise to the challenge and will try and help with the detail too ;)
Monica
-
Unfortunately most of the advice so far given is for English births, The Scottish Civil Registration started in 1855 and registration was compulsory from the start, in fact it was that very compulsion that prompted the change in the English system
The children born in 1857, 1860 and 1867 should have been registered if the census is to be believed.
However it should be mentioned that there was animosity between the various churches at that time and the new registration system was frowned upon from many quarters.
Cheers
Guy
-
bev thanks for confirming that it does happen
ladyhawk where did you get that transcription ? the one i saw on ancestry did not say unmarried !
that would have saved a lot of time i spent looking for marriages !
i did have the other information thank you .
-
thanks for insight guy
i put link to scottish topic on here when i gave specific name
and will now put the link to this topic on there
then go and eat before deciding what to spend my precious SP credits on
-
Normally I m an advocate of working backwards from '. Known ' facts
But in this case if I.d started with Margaret Love.s death certificate ..I.d have been looking for a non existent husband and non existent parents
I still haven't worked out who her parents were there are so many Love.s in Shettleston and they love the christian names Margaret James John and Isabelle
I have found potential grandmother ....Margaret Sheddi (Shedden)
In Barony 1941
With David Love aged 9
Margaret Love aged 7
And James 5
This corresponds quite with younger brother James who lived with margeret and her children in 1871 aged 33
If it's the right family David is a better name to work with ...
I.m learning to search on ancestry .Then get orig documents from Scotlandspeople it works out cheaper
But
..Some people just seem to add the first possibility they see to their trees and others take it as a fact
(Guilty ! But I don't copy from other people's tree s without double checking )
-
As we are talking Scottish births post 1855...
I have one (can't remember which) but it was a common forename with a surname with many variants in the Dundee, Angus area.
I spent an absolute fortune to no avail only to find it in the Catholic Registers although it should have been on the Statutory Register.
I got in touch with SP & they thought possibly the parents weren't aware the birth was to be registered elsewhere (Registrars) & thought the Church Record was fine.
So, yes it happens, not being on Statutory Records for whatever reasons.
Annie
-
Sometimes there may be an element of truth even when wrong information is given
I have a death record where the grandson who registered it gave the first name of his other grandma
I.m wondering if the parents first names given on Margaret Love death cert 1915 were correct John a coal miner and Jeannie but surname different
The parents James Love and Elizabeth King I originally had for her may actually have been her grandparents ...If I can work out which of their children was her parent .
-
Brigid, just trying to go back again for Margaret snr to see what we had.
Focusing on censuses, we had for 1841:
Margaret Sheddin, parish pauper
David Love 9, parish pauper
Margaret Love 7, parish pauper
James Love 5, parish pauper
Address: Eastmuir, Shettleston
I think this entry connect to this entry in 1851. Please note that at least A/try has potentially mistrascribed William's surname to Manners. Only the original image from SP will help to confirm. FreeCen, which I find much more reliable as it is trascribed by volunteers shows the surname as Mathers:
William Mather, 42 coal miner b. Barony
Isabella Mather, 50 b. Monkland
David Love, 19 stepson coal miner b. Barony
James Love, 15 stepson coal miner b. Govan
Address: Lightburn, Shettleston
There is a possible entry for Margaret aged 17 working as a domestic servant in a household in Govan. As we have discussed, we then likely have Margaret back with mother and stepfather William in 1861, together with daughters Margaret and Isabella.
Monica
-
:-[
Sorry, meant to post this on the other Scottish post. I still had both tabs open from last night.... ::)
I will repost this info now there to keep it all together.
Monica
-
Cautionary tale ; Finding Margaret LOVE
complicated name changes no obvious census trail to follow due to names changing between censuses but thanks to Monicas sleuthing and some help from Ancestry i can now say
Elizabeth (isabella ) Birrell b about 1800 in Monkland
1st marriage 1830 to James Love
children David ,Margaret and James
2nd husban 1844 William Manners (Mathers )on some transcriptions
Margaret Love born 1838
1841 aged 7 living with Grandmother Margaret Sheddin 70 and her siblings all parish paupers
1861 she is Margaret Manners living with step father William Mathers?
her daughters Maggie Muir 4 and isabella lurtch
after birth of son john Love 1862 with James love
1871 census Margaret Love aged 35 is listed as unmarried
with brother james Love 33
Maggie Love 14 Isabella Love and john Love
all other censuses Margaret + maggie use surname Love
1895 son Johns marriage ..recorded as son of Margaret Love no father
Death Cert
age 75 in 1915 ..father James Birrel coal miner deceased
widow of John Love coal minor .
..registered by son John Love
I thought this was the death cert of her daughter Maggie Love born 1857
but she died 1927 aged 70 also in the lightburn cottages where her mother had lived .
-
Now ive found some LOVE dna matches i thought Id try to summarise our findings so far
maggie love b 1857 was my grandmothers grandmother
I her story is starting to make sense & i may have found descendants of her sister isabelle LOVE b1860 & brother john love b1863
Their mother was Margaret b abt 1836 tho in some censuses rounded up to 1840
Margaret was never married
is listed as Margaret LOVE on daughters births
1861she is listed Margaret MAnners stepdaughter to her mother Elizabeth/ Isabelle Birrell .s 2nd husband
Her daughters are down as grandchildren: MargaretMUIR aged 4 and isabellaLUTCh 8 mths
after having john in 1863 she reverts to the name of LOVE.
In 1871 she is listed as head of household
Unmarried aged 35 bleach worker
All 3 children now have Love surname .
There is a james LOVE collier aged 33 b glasgow listed as brother
This would fit with 1841 census margaret LOVE aged 7 with brothers james aged 5 and david aged 9
all living with their 70 year old grandmother Margaret SHEDDIN
All were paupers of the parish of Eastmuir Shettleston
In 1851 margaret love aged 17 may be in service
With Willlium.Muir a servant father of her daughter Maggie .
1891 and on several electoral rolls margaret love is an ag lab
Son john a coalminer aged 24 .
They live at lightburn
Hope that is clear ..but ithink ive posted it on wrong thread .
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=756853.0
-
I wouldn't rule out brother and sister posing as man and wife, perhaps innocently after outsiders have made assumptions, perhaps worse.
I have one such that came to court at the Old Bailey, and yes there was offspring. I think the pregnancy brought on disaster. She had a marriage and children beforehand too. I have no idea what happened to her first husband - I often wonder if they "got rid of him". Note that in England it wasn't a crime before 1904, they were unlucky and got caught just a couple of years later. Very frowned upon though, of course.
-
Yes the thought had occurred to me...
Shock proof these days ...
I was surprised so.many people think cousi s shouldnt marry
Although we cant accept incest ..ancient Egyptian kings bieved it enhanced tbeir noble ood to marry sisters
But i dont want to cast aspersions on our lovely LOVE. s prefer to think we have inherited a tende cy not to marry or obey laws and conventions
I talk about my ex husbands but only ever had 1 ceremony and that was just a party
-
Am in touch with some disant cousins thru dna and these posts
I made some recordings of my aunt aged 92 talking about life in 1930.s Cambuslang and Glasgow
Have played some of them on local community radiio station ..tho im.in leicester .i would live to shate them.on here but dont know if its possible to add audio clips
-
Thanks Stan ..the 1st thing I noticed about the registrations was the cost
Those regulations quoted by Stan were for England and Wales. They are not relevant to registration in Scotland.
Registration in Scotland was provided for by the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland) Act, 1854.
The significant points of difference between registration in Scotland and registration in England and Wales are that in Scotland
- Registration did not start in Scotland until 1 January 1855
- Registration was compulsory from the outset.
- Births had to be registered within 21 days.
- There was no fee for registering a birth or death, but there were (and are) fines for late registration and fees for other services including providing additional copies of certificates. (Fees were charged for registering marriages, on the grounds that no-one could choose not to be born or not to die, but that you could choose whether or not to marry.)
- Scottish certificates were and are more informative than English and Welsh ones
See https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/introduction/ and
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/birth-death-and-marriage-records/statutory-registers-of-births-deaths-and-marriages
-
Update
A few more DNA matches have shown up
The latest is only 8cm..The match is in USA from a much younger generation and with surname LOVE .
We haven't joined the dots yet but I've shared this story I the hope that it will help
-
There is a mention that Margaret was on electoral registers in Lightburn, does that indicate that she must have been well off as few if any women had the vote at the time.
-
It's quite amazing if she went from pauper to property owner did you mean Margaret senior or junior my maggie muir love