RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Suzy W on Saturday 25 February 17 00:55 GMT (UK)
-
I have a total brick wall with my three times great grandfather William Lyall. I just received his death print out here in New Zealand. It states he was born 11 March 1830 in Dundee. Parents William Lyall and Barbra Pittellow..spelling should be Pattullo.
I have checked Scotland's People and family search, and nothing is coming up for his birth. Could his parents of forgotten to register his birth?
Also just wondering why no marriage is recorded for William Lyall and Barbara? Could they of lived as a married couple, but not married?
It seems as William Lyall snr died in 1838 and is buried at Howff and maybe Barbara (not sure) died in 1858 at Panbride.
This family have been a complete brick wall for many family researchers, and I was wondering if I am on the right track?
Any help with my questions would be great.
Suzy W
-
Hi Suzy,
As Barbara (you think) died post 1855 her death will be recorded in Statutory records on SP under both her marital & maiden surnames.
You can cross reference/check the index no. which will be the same for both surnames before you download.
Annie
-
I don't think she married William. That is my problem. No marriage record for them.
Nor no birth record for their son William :-\
Were there any missing records, it would be my luck being my clan.
-
I don't know that OPRs are complete or survive for all areas. :-\
Have you considered an irregular marriage?
Presumably you have already tried all the usual, like being flexible with spelling of names, and locations?
Even if she and William did not marry, her death record may assume they did, so worth checking under both surnames.
I had a quick look for William's birth earlier but couldn't see a likely one with parents William and Barbara.
Did William jnr have any siblings? The reason I ask is because if they died in NZ you might like to check the parent's names - I have found quite lot of examples of incorrect parents (most often mother's surname), on Australian death certificates. It might be the same in NZ with informants knowing little of family back in the old country. :)
-
Parents William Lyall and Barbra Pittellow..spelling should be Pattullo.
Don't get hung up on spelling. It was a very inexact science until the 20th century. Until then, there was no such thing as 'correct' spelling of personal and place names.
I have checked Scotland's People and family search, and nothing is coming up for his birth. Could his parents of forgotten to register his birth?
Yes, very easily. Or they may not have been members of the Church of Scotland.
Also just wondering why no marriage is recorded for William Lyall and Barbara? Could they of lived as a married couple, but not married?
They could, but it is far more likely that they were married but there is simply no surviving record of the marriage. Or perhaps William Jr was illegitimate and they never actually lived together.
it would be my luck being my clan
Forget about clans. Not every Scot belongs to a clan. These days, there are several Lowland and Border families who are described as clans, but neither Lyall and variants, nor Patullo and variants, is a clan. They are good solid Lowland families. The clans, historically, were a feature of society in the Gaelic-speaking Highlands, and not so many centuries ago your ancestors would have feared and mistrusted all clans, regarding them as savage and dangerous. See http://www.clanchiefs.org.uk/chief/ for a list of currently recognised clans.
BTW I recommend that you change the heading of your post as I have done. Just putting 'Birth' is very vague and may not catch the attention of other folk. Always best to be specific.
-
I see from the 1841 census that a 10-year-old William Lyall, born in Angus, is listed in the Royal Orphan Institution in Dundee. http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Also from the Dundee Howff gravestones web site http://www.dundee-howff.info/ that William Lyall, weaver, was aged 60 when he died in 1838. If his age is accurate, this means that he was born in 1777/1778, and that he was over 50 when William Lyall Jr was born.
I also note that in the same grave there are other people with different surnames and no obvious connection to William. Now, I may be adding two and two and making five (or even seven) but it occurs to me to wonder if William Sr had fallen on hard times, and been buried at the expense of the parish? If so, there could be something in the Kirk Session records (1838 is too early for Poor Law records). Start with https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/archive/
Also, if William Jr was indeed an orphan, there is an outside chance that he was still at school in 1845, when the Poor Law came into force and the Parochial Boards were set up. If so, there might be some record of him there. Again, start with https://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/archive/
I don't think there is any need to check that death in Panbride in 1858, by the way. The SP index shows that her other surname was Fitchie. Barbara Patullo married John Fitchie in Tealing in 1812. They had four recorded children, George, Barbara, John and Elizabeth, and in 1841 they were living at Monikie with Elizabeth (listed as Betsy) and three unrecorded children, Margaret, James and Helen. So there is no possibility that she is your Barbara Patullo.
-
Special thanks to Forfarian
Oh my goodness, if that is our William in 1841, the James that is there could be his brother.
I did have another 1841 census, thinking that might of been William living with the Witton family. I would think the orphan aged 10 is a better fit. Why I never came across this before? Good spotting.
So a look at Orphan records may help.
There might be some ties to a Charles and James Pattullo in Cottown, they could be a brothers or Uncle to Barbara. Why I say this, is that the future wife of William is Mary Milne, her parents were neighbours to these Pattullo's. Then again it all can be just chance, I was told Pattullo is a well known name in Scotland.
Yes the grave of William Snr have at least three other men all buried in there, no relations, a poor grave. He would of been proud of his son, he did really well in NZ.
And thanks for checking the death in Penbride, not her. So what happened to Barbara? She must of died before 1841 then.
Suzy W :D
-
Forfarian - I have checked on 3 different sites and I simply cannot find a 10 year old William Lyall in Dundee on 1841 census.
All I can find is a 10 year old William Lyon in Royal Orphan Institution in Dundee??
Annette
-
************!! You are right. I obviously need new specs. Sorry about that.
-
Transcribed as Lyall here.
Another census 1851 has them as Syal.
I will try and contact the Dundee archives and ask about the orphanage records. It was said he was an orphan by a young age in the family bible, but never did we know of siblings.
The other 1841 census has a 13 year old William Lyall with the Whitton family, a few more years older, I do like the results below, do you think they got the name wrong with Lyon?
Piece: SCT1841/312 Place: Montrose -Angus Enumeration District: 13
Civil Parish: Montrose Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 13 Page: 31
Address: High Street
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WHITE Thomas M 58 Independent Outside Census County (1841)
WHITE Jane F 56 Angus
LYALL James M 10 Outside Census County (1841)
LYALL William M 9 Outside Census County (1841)
BALFOUR Margaret F 18 Female Servant Angus
MILLAR Margaret F 33 Female Servant Angus
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Pitnappie, Newtyle, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
James Whitton Male 50 1791 Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland (farmer)
James Whitton Male 15 1826 Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Cecilia Kidd Female 55 1786 Scotland
Wm Lyall Male 13 1828 Scotland