RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: Cavanaghs on Saturday 25 February 17 20:54 GMT (UK)
-
I have just found out an approximate birthdate and place of my long lost Great x 4 grandfather, who spent 22 years in the 30th Regiment of Foot in the British Army and married and lived out the rest of his life in Whitehaven, Cumberland. On enlistment and for part of his time in Whitehaven, he calls himself a "Weaver". He could also sign his name. This is all I know of him.
Can anyone point me in the direction of where he may have been baptised in Moy? Are there records of any other Dobbins family members in Moy?
What was the economic situation in Moy in 1780, when he enlists in the British Army? What might have motivated his departure at c 16 years old?
Any tips and thoughts welcome!
Thank you.
-
John is my 6x Gt Grandfather :)
Also interested in finding out any information if anyone has anything!
-
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8887483
-
Thanks for that Hallmark! That's actually the document that alerted me to John's approx. DOB and place of birth! His muster rolls are all available at The National Archives but there are so many documents it's a bit pricey to check them all on the off-chance there are also more details about his parentage etc..
Thanks again :)
-
What was the economic situation in Moy in 1780, when he enlists in the British Army? What might have motivated his departure at c 16 years old?
Young men joined the army in 1780 for much the same reasons they still do today, to learn a trade, to get a steady income and to see a bit of the world.
You say John described himself as a weaver. The average weaver in Ireland in the 1700s and first half of the 1800s was a labourer who often lived in a small cottage on someone else’s farm, and would have a few perches of land to grow some vegetables and some flax (the raw material for linen). Rent would generally be paid by an agreed number of days labour on the farm, though occasionally it was paid in cash. The labourer was otherwise free to undertake any additional work that might be available, possibly on another farm or on government schemes such as road improvements.
Weaving was top up income for small farmers and labourers in Ulster. It was originally undertaken at home using hand powered looms (such as are still in use in the Outer Hebrides for making Harris Tweed). The looms were portable and could be packed up when not needed or when moving house. Men and women both did the weaving, with women and children spinning thread and other related work. It provided a bit of extra income, and cash (in a society that was largely run on the barter system). As well as purchasing the things that barter can’t buy eg a ticket to Canada or America, the cash ensured that their lot was slightly better than people in other parts of Ireland where linen was not made. (Most Irish linen was made in Ulster). Given John's age when he left home, he was probably living with his parents who would also have likely been labourers and weavers.
-
Many thanks Elwyn. That helps put things in context. :)
On balance, do you think John would have been literate before he joined the Army or would he have learned to read and write during army service? I know that over 20 years he was promoted from a private to corporal to sergeant.
-
My guess would be that he learned to write in the army but couldn't be certain. There wasn't a lot of schooling in Ireland in the late 1700s.
-
My guess would be that he learned to write in the army but couldn't be certain. There wasn't a lot of schooling in Ireland in the late 1700s.
The one thing we do know is that if he had any education within the army, it must have been before, or as he was stationed in Whitehaven, Cumberland, as he signed his name on his marriage certificate in St Bee's Whitehaven, and Whitehaven is where he met his wife.
He was stationed there in 1791, and had been in the army for 10 years already by that point.
My cousin, who is a soldier and a bit of an army encyclopedia has told me that he may have been educated within the army, especially if he had gone up the ranks and been promoted, which he had been, but only for a short while.
It would be great to find out more about his life before he joined the army.
-
Thanks to both of you for your input!
-
Hello,
I realize I'm a bit late to this conversation. There was a fairly prominent and wealthy Dobbins family in Moy in the 1760s. The Rev. James Dobbins of Moy, married Elizabeth Vincent, and was the father of another Rev. James Dobbins, who was baptized in 1755. The senior James was a Justice in County Tyrone and was party to or witness to many land deeds, some of which can be searched here... https://irishdeedsindex.net/search/index.php The senior James died in 1773. Your John Dobbins is almost certainly related to this family. If you are still researching this family I would be happy to provide more information.
-
Thank you for your message Jon! Yes, I would love any information you have about this family. I've actually made a speculative tree about a James Dobbins born in Whitehaven c 1784 in Whitehaven who is the possible son of a James and Sarah Dobbins. I suspected these people were potentially related to my Dobbins in some way.
Can you send me a PM? Looking forward to hearing form you!
-
I would also LOVE some information about the Dobbins line if you have any, John has been my brick wall on the Dobbins line for many many years!
-
Hi all! I'm very late to this thread, but I've been researching my husband's family tree, including this John Dobbins, his 4xgg.
I've only just found the RCH pension record that confirms that he was in the 30th Foot (residence: Whitehaven), but now that I have, I'm eager to see what more I can learn about his service (beyond the general movements of the 30th Foot from 1780-1802) and his origins in county Tyrone.
I'm especially interested in the latter because I'm deep into county Tyrone research for my own family -- but on the other side of the county, on the border with county Donegal.
If there's been a firmer connection made to Rev. James Dobbins or other families, I'd super appreciate any pointers to documents. Please feel free to DM if that's preferred.
Thank you!
-
As a postscript: the Registry of Deeds link has thrown up a tantalising tease! The Rev. James Dobbins' will, registered 19 May 1781, had three beneficiaries -- sons James and Richard and daughter Mary -- in addition to executor and widow Elizabeth née Vincent.
Our John Dobbins (1763-1835) of the 30th Foot called his first son Richard (bap 1793 at Whitehaven St Nicholas). And of course, in traditional Irish naming convention, the firstborn son was named after the father's father... Not proof of anything, but curious.
-
Hello reddli,
I am just getting back in to researching the Dobbins family after a bit of a hiatus, and I am wrapping up a fairly in-depth look at that family's ancestry, which I would be happy to pass along once it's complete. I have not looked into John and his connection to the Rev. James of Moy, although I still believe he is almost certainly a son of Rev. James Dobbins, Jr. I can also say with certainty that this James was the son of Rev. James Dobbins, Rector of Kilmore. As for the 1781 listing in the Registry of Deeds, that is actually a marriage settlement between Mary Dobbins, theoretical sister of John Dobbins, and her husband, William Daniel. The settlement references the will, which was dated December 2, 1773, and provides some limited detail on the provisions of the will, which I believe leaves the door open for children not named here. Specifically, while his estate was to be used initially for the support of his widow, Elizabeth, after her death the estate would revert to his children. From there it says "after devising certain Legacys therin Mentioned, did bequeath the residue of his portion to his said son Richard the said Mary and his son James Dobbins as therin mentioned". The "certain Legacys therin Mentioned" I believe refers to specific items or money intended for other children not named in this entry, with the remaining amounts (likely the majority of the estate) going to Richard, Mary and James.
There is still no definitive connection here though and you might have a bit of work ahead to make it happen, but it might not be impossible. Have you traced the lives of Richard, Mary and James Dobbins? Do any of them have any possible connections to John, perhaps references to John or his children in deeds or will abstracts?
-
Dear JonBoody,
Thank you for all this. I'm inclined to think there's a connection, too, but I haven't yet done the research -- this past weekend, I honestly got sucked into understanding John Dobbins' service in the British Army, learning a great deal about the movements of the 30th Regiment of Foot between 1776 (when they were stationed at Charlemont, about half a mile from Moy) and his discharge at Winchester Barracks in 1802.
He was said to have enlisted in 1780, when the regiment was in the south, primarily in county Cork. So he either became besotted with the regiment when they were stationed nearby (along with hearing about the war in the American colonies?), or he enlisted earlier (perhaps as a drummer boy, as he would have been about 13 or 14). If he were related to the two Rev. James Dobbins in some way, I think it would be less likely for him to enlist at such a young age -- but I'll need to do more research to see if this hypothesis is historically accurate!
In any case, this John Dobbins married in Whitehaven, while the 30th Foot were there, and returned to Whitehaven after serving in Egypt. He was either injured on 21 March 1801 or 17 August 1801, based on the published state papers reporting the numbers of killed and wounded by rank. If he was injured in August, he would have seen the Great Pyramids of Giza -- albeit likely from a distance -- while the regiment was at Cairo in June and July. I find that fascinating for a man who I'd previously imagined living a humble collier's life in Cumberland. I've got some records to request at Kew to fill in the full picture (hopefully).
I'll next research the various Dobbins relations to see what I can find -- I've got the scanned pages of the official copy of the senior Rev. James Dobbins' will to read more closely. The challenge will be trying to bridge the records gaps in that period and see if I can find a possible connection beyond the common last name.
I'll report back anything that I discover, and will be grateful to hear about others' findings -- I'd love to see what you've found on the Dobbins' ancestry, once you have it in a place where you're happy to share.
If the name Singleton figures in it, that would be very interesting. John Dobbins' wife was called Eleanor Singleton, but I can't find anyone baptised anywhere in England around the right time who might be her. So I'm wondering if she was also from Ulster, or from county Cork, where the 30th Foot spent so much time before going to South Carolina and then the West Indies. Or she could have had dissenter parents, or the parish register was kept badly... It goes on and on.
All best,
r.
-
Hi both.
I hope you don't mind me following this thread. John Dobbins is my 6x gt grandfather.
I have been desperately trying to get in touch with anyone that would be able to confirm the link between the reverend and our John, with no success so far.
I even contacted the admin on a page that had loads of baptism records on it with the reverend listed has the person who had held the service to see if they might know anything about him and got a very blunt "I have no idea" reply.
In the mean time, I would love to know how you both link in with my line. I'm always thrilled to put more cousins on my tree, especially on a line that has raised so many questions for so many years.
-
Hi KimberleyW!
John Dobbins (b 1763 in county Moy, d Whitehaven 1835) is my husband's 4x great grandfather.
Because I'm American, I found it particularly delightful that we've now (potentially) got someone in his tree that was fighting against my revolutionary forebears -- in a broad sense, since they were separated by hundreds of miles.
Alas, his family have inherited no information about John Dobbins (or his children or grandchildren). Everything we know has come from research.
My husband is descended from John Dobbins' son John Dobbins (bap 1806 Whitehaven, m Ann Swainson, d 1865 Whitehaven), and that John's daughter Eleanor Dobbins (bap 1830 Whitehaven, m Isaac Nulty, d 1905 Whitehaven).
Please do feel free to be in touch via DM if you'd like to swap information closer to the present! --
All best,
r.
-
Whoops -- born Moy, county Tyrone, of course!
-
I am hoping to complete a write-up of my research on the Dobbins family in the coming weeks. Once that is complete I will send it off to you. I can say that there is quite a bit of information available out there, going pretty far back, but I still have a number of big gaps that I cannot yet fill in.
Another route to look into would be Rev. Richard Vincent. He was very closely associated with the Dobbins family, far more than just his daughter, Elizabeth, marrying James Dobbins. Perhaps John named his first son after his grandfather. It's possible other members of the Vincent family had some connections and made mention of John somewhere.
I am descended from Sarah Dobbins, daughter of the elder Rev. James Dobbins of Kilmore. In all of my research I have found only two siblings for her - Rev. Lindsay Dobbins and Rev. James Dobbins (assumed father of John).
As for Eleanor Singleton, an Ellinor Singleton was baptized on June 21, 1760, in Whitbeck, Cumberland. Perhaps it is she or a close relative with the same name who married John Dobbins.
-
Thanks JonBoody!
I misspoke earlier when I said there were none in England. I should have looked at my notes before writing with such authority. :)
I have found that Ellinor Singleton bap 1760, but the dates of birth of her children (1793, 1803, 1806, 1809) make me hesitant to conclude that she's the woman who married John Dobbins. It is within the realm of possibility, but not a comfortable one, particularly in that historical period.
I think two of the few other Eleanor Singletons in England in the period might be a better chance:
> Ellen Singleton, daughter of John and Isabel Singleton, baptised at Kirkham, Lancs., on 14 December 1762. Abode: Newton
> Ellen Singleton, daughter of Thomas Singleton, baptised at Lancaster St John on 3 July 1767
The 30th Foot was at Liverpool before or around the same time they were in Whitehaven. If they marched from Liverpool to Whitehaven, both Lancaster and Kirkham would have likely been along the route.
Eleanor Dobbins was said to have been born abt 1765 when she was buried in 1736 -- totally unreliable, of course, but it has helped guide my searching. Unfortunately, the St Bees parish register didn't note anything about the couple when they married in 1792 other than the fact that neither were previously married.
I've also seen quite a few Singletons in Irish records in this period, which got me thinking she may have been someone he knew before he was stationed at Whitehaven.
The hunt goes on!
All best,
r.
-
P.S. I think it's time to research the 3 main Eleanor Singletons in depth, to see if I find them dying young or marrying someone else. I started this at one point, but put the research aside.
-
Hello reddli,
I finished writing up everything I've found regarding the Dobbins family and their ancestry. Unfortunately, I was unable to make any further connection between your John Dobbins of Moy and James Dobbins of Moy, but I'd be happy to pass along this study for when you do make that connection. If you are interested, please send me an email address via PM and I'll send it to you.
Jon
-
A lady on facebook has suggested that we have a look through the parish registers of Clonfeacle, which should cover Moy's records. Dont know how we would find those, i'm not great with Irish record searching, but if anyone has any ideas i'm more than willing to give it a try!
-
Never mind, found them!
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0199?fbclid=IwAR3dOv88AohPfJt0g3Ia6iIALSDMy73CnKr3-CapPZnSLoOLh_ByF_ZNeXQ
This... could take a while :)
I know that these will not contain anything for John, but we might find a link to more Dobbins's that we can trace back. Perhaps!
-
I'm not so sure the records you have here will be of much help as they are Catholic church records. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Irish records were destroyed, so you will be limited. I'm not seeing much of anyone named James or Richard Dobbins in findmypast after the 1780s. There are quite a few Mary Daniels, but she may or may not be their sister. I didn't look too deep into the Registry of Deeds, but there was no James or Richard in what I did review. Vincent family will abstracts mention the Dobbins relatives, so perhaps more can be found by looking at that family further. The lack of records in Ireland doesn't mean too much, given the loss of records there, but one would expect at least some mention somewhere. You are right, this might take a while. I would suggest organizing and writing up everything you find, both Irish and English, and then add new hints in as they come up.
-
Nope you are correct, i was hoping that we might find some more Dobbins's that we could trace back to a common ancestor but it looks like the records that we would be interested in were destroyed anyway.
I have been in contact with the Ulster ancestry group on facebook and they have provided me with some information that, while it may not be of use to our current predicament, it might be an interesting read. I fear that John will forever remain a mystery.
It seems as though all records RE: the Rev James and his wife were destroyed, but there is some information that the Rev came from the town of Killinore in county Tyrone.
Some other info that may be of interest - (just going to copy and paste it all)
"From memory the Dobbin family were in Carrickfergus in the 1400s and at some point a number of members of the family moved to land west of Armagh City in Tirnascobe. Leonard Dobbin is probably the best known member of the family, serving as MP for the Borough of Armagh in the 1830s. The name Dobbin in this area is said to derive from d’Obyn which may well be d’Aubin as previously mentioned."
"There is a well-known traditional song from Armagh called Dobbin's Flowery Vale. You would probably be able to find it performed on YouTube. I don't know the provenance of it but some of the singers websites may have more information."
"Dobbins hotel and restaurant is in Carrickfergus. A fairly ancient building. The Dobbins who settled in Ulster are believed to have originally been named D'Aubin, Huguenot refugees, who, like the de Crommelin Huguenots (for whom Crumlin is named) became successful and influential. I am related by marriage to one Mervyn Dobbin from Carrick, but who now lives, I believe, in or near Milton Keynes, England."
One last thing that has been suggested is that we could contact a Valerie Adams in the Presbyterian Historical Society, to see if she could reveal any information that they have on the reverend, which may reveal more details of his family. So i'll give that a go and get back to you
-
Heard back from the historical society, but this is the only information they could give me, which i'm fairly certain we already knew.
"We have a Rev James Dobbin , son of James Dobbin or Dobbyn, Armagh ordained at Aughmacart, Co Laois, in 1745 and then moved to Newtownards in 1757 and died 1782."
Kimberley
-
So, to start, I think it's a bit early to say that John may forever remain a mystery. These sorts of mysteries often take some time to work out, possibly even years, depending on the accessibility of records. The Reverend James of Moy was the son of the Reverend James of Kilmore in Armagh. While most records of these people have been destroyed, enough remain to confidently create the brief sketch that I have already provided. There's no doubt about any of that. The Rev. James of Aughmacart does not appear to be closely related to the Moy Dobbins family - purely coincidental there. The problem, obviously, is making that connection with John of Moy/Whitehaven, understanding that there is still a possibility that John of Moy was not actually the son of Rev. James of Moy. I do believe this could be solved with a deeper study of the individuals in Ireland and England to see if/where their stories come together, or if some evidence comes up to exclude the connection to Rev. James.