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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: janjim on Tuesday 28 February 17 04:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am trying to confirm the correct family lineage of our GGG Grandmother Lucy New.
She married Daniel New on the 8.7.1826 at Reading and died at Newbury in 1871, buried at Newtown Road, Cemetery.
After having found a match on DNA tests , we have now come up with some interesting information in regard to Lucy. She is shown as Lucy Wootton on the marriage certificate in 1826, and at that time we knew she already had a daughter Jane Wootton born in 1821. Always thought Lucy was unmarried at the time of her marriage in 1826, and we now find that she was married to a Thomas Wootton on the 11th July, 1812 at St. Nicholas Church, Newbury. So prior to her marriage to Thomas Wootton she was Lucy Bindley, baptised 11.5.1794 at Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire.
I find it strange that she only had one child during her marriage to Thomas Wootton in so many years from 1812 to 1821 anyway, and was wondering if someone could assist me in finding any other children from her marriage to Thomas. We believe that Thomas Wootton died not very long before her marriage to our Daniel New.
Looking forward to any assistance please.
jan
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In case it is relevant family search have a baptism for a Hannah -parents Thomas & Lucy in Wantage 4 July 1813 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J9N9-VX1
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Hello Jan,
I'm not sure if I can help you with a correct lineage, but what I have found is;
Marriage (By Licence)
Thomas Wootton, dealer, of Wantage, Berks & Lucy Brindlay, sp, Earthenware Dealer, Newbury, Berks ;
Bondsman; James Brindlay, Earthenware Dealer
Licence dated 10-7-1812
Marriage (By Licence)
Daniel New, Bac, Reading St.lawrence, Berks & Lucy Wootton, Reading St.Mary, Berks. Wid
Licence dated 4-7-1826 Reading St.Mary.
These are taken from the Wilts, Dorset & Berks marriage Licence Bonds CD from the WiltsFHS.
Have you got the right burial date for Lucy (1871) as I've found one of 1879 aged 85
Alan
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Rosie, yes, that looks like one issue, Hannah b. 1813, so yes she would have left home by the time Lucy married Daniel New.
Thanks for that
Jan
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Yes, thank you Ribbo39, we definitely have Lucy New as having died in Newbury in 1879 aged 85 years. It is just all the intervening years from when she was first married in 1812, one child born in 1813, then Jane born 1821, seems quite strange, looking for any records of births during those years.
jan
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Hi Jan,
Newbury library have a copy of the parish registers for St Nicolas Church Newbury so I'll take a look at the baptisms and see what I can find for you next time I'm in town.
Thomas & Lucy Wootton were in Newbury by 1815 as they are recorded on the Joseph Toomer's 1815 census, details below:
Abode: Wash Lane Newbury
Thomas Wooton aged 39
Lucy Wooton aged 20
Sarah Wooton infant
There is this burial which would fit with the baptism of Hannah Wootton in 1813 and it would explain why Hannah is not in the 1815 census:
Date: 1st April 1814
Name: Hannah Wootton
Age: 10 months
There is also this Burial:
Date: 15th July 1825
Name: Thomas Wootton
Age: 36 yrs
The age of Thomas Wooton in these two records seem to suggest that it is not the same person but the 1815 census above is a transcribed record and therefore may have been mistranscribed.
Chris
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Chris, thanks so much for all of this information. So there was an infant Sarah as well.
Jane was born 11.7.1812, but she is not shown on Toomers census.
Yes, I look forward to hearing more on the Parish Registers for births.
Appreciate that very much
Jan
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Marriage (By Licence)
Thomas Wootton, dealer, of Wantage, Berks & Lucy Brindlay, sp, Earthenware Dealer, Newbury, Berks ;
Bondsman; James Brindlay, Earthenware Dealer
Licence dated 10-7-1812
The occupations could mean they travelled around a bit and the potential children in the "gap years" might have been outside Newbury.
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Yes, so Sarah could have been born out of the Parish.
Thanks for that.
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Hi Jan,
Looks like you were right in thinking that Thomas & Lucy had more children, Here's what I have been able to find in the parish records for St Nicolas Newbury.
No Baptism found for Sarah but she died in 1822
Burial: 9/3/1822 Sarah Wootton aged 7 yrs 3 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism: 17/7/1816 Mary daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Potter)
Burial:30/12/1816 Mary Ann Wootton aged 6 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism:26/12/1817 Elizabeth daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Staffordshire Ware Man)
Burial: 8/4/1818 Elizabeth Wootton aged 4 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism: 10/3/1819 Jane daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Earthen Ware Man)
Baptism: 25/12/1822 Clara daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Potter)
Burial: 3/11/1823 Clare (should be Clara) Wootton aged 11 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism: 6/3/1825 Caroline daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Staffordshire Ware Man)
Burial: 6/10/1827 Caroline Wootton aged 2 yrs 7 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton (Now New).
The library also has a copy of the original 1815 Toomers census so I had a quick look and Thomas Wootton is recorded as aged 39 yrs old, also living in the same household were James Brindley aged 18yrs and William Brindley aged 22 yrs.
Chris
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Chris,
Thank you so much for all of this information, how very sad, giving birth to all these children and then losing them at such a young age.
I will note all of this down in my records now.
Regards
Jan
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Hi again Candrjm,
Following on from this, I wonder if you could assist me again please. I am looking at Lucy Brindley's brothers that you have named below, a James Brindley and William Brindley, trying to find their dates of birth.
Trying to connect up with a Brindley family, in saying this, have a connection with a descendant of James Brindley b. 1840, he was a Fishmonger in Newbury, his mother most likely was Mary Ann Brindley.
Would like to see if James and William Brindley had the same parents.
Regards
Jan
Hi Jan,
Looks like you were right in thinking that Thomas & Lucy had more children, Here's what I have been able to find in the parish records for St Nicolas Newbury.
No Baptism found for Sarah but she died in 1822
Burial: 9/3/1822 Sarah Wootton aged 7 yrs 3 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism: 17/7/1816 Mary daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Potter)
Burial:30/12/1816 Mary Ann Wootton aged 6 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism:26/12/1817 Elizabeth daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Staffordshire Ware Man)
Burial: 8/4/1818 Elizabeth Wootton aged 4 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism: 10/3/1819 Jane daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Earthen Ware Man)
Baptism: 25/12/1822 Clara daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Potter)
Burial: 3/11/1823 Clare (should be Clara) Wootton aged 11 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton
Baptism: 6/3/1825 Caroline daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton of Newbury (father's occ: Staffordshire Ware Man)
Burial: 6/10/1827 Caroline Wootton aged 2 yrs 7 months daughter of Thomas & Lucy Wootton (Now New).
The library also has a copy of the original 1815 Toomers census so I had a quick look and Thomas Wootton is recorded as aged 39 yrs old, also living in the same household were James Brindley aged 18yrs and William Brindley aged 22 yrs.
Chris
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Hi Jan,
Quote from your opening post:
Always thought Lucy was unmarried at the time of her marriage in 1826, and we now find that she was married to a Thomas Wootton on the 11th July, 1812 at St. Nicholas Church, Newbury. So prior to her marriage to Thomas Wootton she was Lucy Bindley, baptised 11.5.1794 at Cheslyn Hay, Staffordshire.
How sure are you that this was your Lucy baptised in Staffordshire?
If the ages for William and James Brindley were correct in the Toomers 1815 census and you do have the correct baptism for your Lucy then the two Brindley boys might also have been from Staffordshire but they might not be Lucy's brother's as the 1815 Toomers census does not give relationship information.
Chris
Added:
Baptism for James Brindley brother of Lucy:
Name James Brindley
Date 11 May 1794
Place Cannock, Staffordshire, England, United Kingdom
Parish St Luke
Father's Name William Brindley
Mother's Name Jane Brindley
and Lucy's baptism:
Name Lucy Brindley
Event Baptism
Date 11 May 1794
Place Cannock, Staffordshire, England, United Kingdom
Parish St Luke
Father's Name William Brindley
Mother's Name Jane Brindley
can't see a baptism for William Brindley in Staffordshire with parents William and Jane.
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Thank you Chris,
Well I am not absolutely sure of course, guess I have a lot more research to do, but definitely have a DNA connection to a lady who is a descendant of James Brindley b. 1840 Newbury who died 1900, his Mother apparently Mary Ann Brindley b. 1821 Newbury. We find Mary Ann Brindley in 1841 census in Wash Road, Newbury, living next door to Lucy (nee Wootton/Brindley) & Daniel New
I need to find out more on Mary Ann Brindley then, who her parents are.
If you can assist me there, I would really appreciate that.
Jan
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Images of the baptisms of Lucy and James are on FindMyPast. Mother's name is spelt Jaine and their abode is something that looks like Cheslynhay (?). Can't find anything similar near Cannock on Google maps, but could be a small hamlet now swallowed up by Cannock.
Added
found on Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheslyn_Hay
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There are two James Brindleys birth reg in Newbury in 1840, the one in Q1 had mmn MacCarthey, the one in Q2 had no mmn on GRO index which may indicate illegitimacy. as 1841 census was taken on 1st June, either could be 1 year old on the census. But if your James was in same household as a 20 - 24 year old Mary Ann Brindley she is possibly his mother and Charlotte Brindley age 45 - 49 is possibly widowed grandmother.
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It looks like Mary Ann Brindley married Michael Wills in 1843 In the 1851 census James is recorded as James Willis
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG85-YNF
This looks to be the other James Brindley's parents in 1851 census but son James born 1840 doesn't seem to be recorded with the family, can't see a death for him:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG85-YLQ
So the James Brindley c1840 Fishmonger who married Rachel Honey shown in this 1891 census could be either James Wills going back to his birth name or James Brindley son of James and Catherine Brindley (nee Macarthy/MacCarthey)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7B1P-5W2
Chris
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There is a marriage for a William Brindley in Newbury on 25 Dec 1815, bride was Charlotte Challis. In 1861 Charlotte Brindley (widow - pack woman /pedlar age 70 and possible mother of Mary Ann) was visiting Harriet Challis age 72 unmarried - maybe older sister ?
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A William Brindley age 42 was buried on 3 Jan 1834 at St Nicholas Newbury, could be Charlotte's husband
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Looks good to me Lizzie! The James Brindley c1815 married to Catherine McCarthy might be the son of Charlotte and William and Mary Ann his sister.
Jan I'll go to the library and see what I can find in the parish records.
Chris
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William and Charlotte had a daughter Harriet who was buried in Newbury on 17 Feb 1817 age 5 months.
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Going back to Cannock
I can't find a marriage for a William and Jane but I can for a James Brindley (bac) and Jane Baker (sp) both of Cheslyn Hay married in Cannock on 12 Dec 1791, both made their mark. wit Samuel Whitehouse (x) and Thos Byrch (signed) T Byrch witnesses a lot of marriages so I guess he's a parish official.
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Marriage (By Licence)
Thomas Wootton, dealer, of Wantage, Berks & Lucy Brindlay, sp, Earthenware Dealer, Newbury, Berks ;
Bondsman; James Brindlay, Earthenware Dealer
Licence dated 10-7-1812
The James Brindley in the Wootton household in 1815 is only in his teens so unlikely to be the James who is the bondsman on the licence. Could be Lucy's father or uncle.
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A Jane Brindley was buried in Newbury on 21 Oct 1820 age 46 (b abt 1774) wife of James.
A James Brindley was buried in Newbury on 2 April 1822 age 49 (b abt 1773).
Could James and Jane have come from Cheslyn Hale to Newbury with children Lucy, James and Meriah (the vicar having made an error on the baptism record, they were baptised on same day and if vicar got the name wrong on one, he would have just copied the line above and the error would be repeated).
added
forget Meriah, she was buried in Cannock in 1801 the year after her baptism
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Lizzie, Have just got contact with the descendant of James Brindley b. 1840 m. Rachel Honey, and she tells me that James Brindley was born in a Workhouse to Mary Ann Brindley, no father named.
Yes, looking further into this now, thanks for all the other information.
Jan
There are two James Brindleys birth reg in Newbury in 1840, the one in Q1 had mmn MacCarthey, the one in Q2 had no mmn on GRO index which may indicate illegitimacy. as 1841 census was taken on 1st June, either could be 1 year old on the census. But if your James was in same household as a 20 - 24 year old Mary Ann Brindley she is possibly his mother and Charlotte Brindley age 45 - 49 is possibly widowed grandmother.
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Chris, that would be great if you could check the Parish Records, but I am thinking if we could find Mary Ann Brindley's birth records, would help me now.
Jan
Looks good to me Lizzie! The James Brindley c1815 married to Catherine McCarthy might be the son of Charlotte and William and Mary Ann his sister.
Jan I'll go to the library and see what I can find in the parish records.
Chris
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Hi Jan,
Quote from my previous thread:
The James Brindley c1815 married to Catherine McCarthy might be the son of Charlotte and William and Mary Ann his sister.
Yes James and Mary Ann were siblings!
Baptisms at St Nicolas Church Newbury:
19th December 1817 James son of William & Charlotte Brindley father's occ: Staffordshire Wareman
25th April 1819 Mary Ann dau of William & Charlotte Brindley father's occ: Potter
29th May 1840 James son of Mary Ann Brindley Newbury Workhouse
Marriage for Mary Ann Brindley:
Place: St Nicolas Church Newbury
Date: 28th May 1843
Groom: Michael Willis, Full Age, Bachelor, occ: Dealer, abode: Newbury
Bride: Mary Ann Brindley, Full Age, Spinster, no Occ, abode: Newbury
Grooms Father: William Willis occ: Bargeman
Brides Father: William Brindley occ: Potter
Both Bride and Groom made their mark
Witnesses: George Stillman and John Totty Mayo ( both witnesses connected to the church)
Marriage for James Brindley:
Place: St Nicolas Church Newbury
Date: 29th October 1859
Groom: James Brindley, aged 19, Bachelor, occ: Labourer, abode: Newbury
Bride: Rachel Honey, aged 18, Spinster, no occ; abode: Newbury
Grooms Father: Blank
Brides Father: William Honey occ: Labourer
Bothe Bride and Groom made their mark
Witnesses: Henry Plumb and Hannah? (--llingher)
So as father's name is Blank this looks to be Mary Ann's son James, born 1840
Marriage By Banns:
Place: St Nicolas Church Newbury
Date: 25th December 1815
Groom: William Brindley Bachelor
Bride: Charlotte Challis Spinster
Witnesses: James Brindley and Samuel Purdue
Chris
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Chris, Thank you very much, so now as I see it, Mary Ann Brindley is most likely niece of Lucy Brindley b. 1794 Cheslyn Hay, who married Daniel New in Newbury.
Daniel New, and William Brindley were Dealers, seems how they all met up. The Challis family seems to be connected somewhere with our New family too.
With the DNA match that I have with this lady, I feel quite confident now where she fits in the tree, she would be my 5th Cousin, but at least I know where she came from now !!.
Regards Jan
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Hi Jan,
Just in case these are connected to your family:
Joseph Toomers 1815 census:
Abode: East Side Newtown Lane Newbury
James Brindley aged 45 occ: Staffordshire Ware Man
Jane Brindley aged 45
harles Brindley aged 15
Sarah Brindley aged 11
Caroline Brindley aged 9
Abode: West Side Newtown Lane Newbury
Charles Brindley aged 35 occ: Staffordsh Ware Sellr
Mary Brindley aged 26
Charles Brindley aged 3
William Brindley aged 1
Elizabeth Brindley aged 60
Chris
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Thanks Chris, seems like lots of Brindleys in Newbury, got to sort them out.
Jan