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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Janelle on Tuesday 28 February 17 04:24 GMT (UK)
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Hello Bristol,
In my tree there is a cousin John WARREN born in Churchstanton, Somerset/Devon, baptised 8 Nov 1829, son of William and Mary.
1851 census ...
John is a visitor with Edwards family, shoemakers, Silver Street, Bridgwater
1861 census ...
John is in Churchinford, a village in his original parish of Churchstanton, with wife MARGARET aged 29 and 2 daughters, Jane, 4 and Mary A aged 1.
Margaret, Jane and Mary A are all enumerated as born in Bristol, Glos
I can find baptisms for Mary Jane 1857 and Mary Ann 1860, dau of John and Margaret Warren, at Bristol St Mary Redcliffe, which is why I am searching for a marriage.
These 2 girls are on the GRO birth index with mmn as BURKE.
My really big problem is that on 26 Oct 1863 John, bachelor shoemaker, is somehow free of Margaret because he marries his 2nd cousin Charlotte Honor Quick, at Churchstanton. I have a copy downloaded from Anc*y.
John seems an unlucky lad, misplacing Marg, Jane and Mary and that C H is never with him, either. In 1871 he is with his brother and 1881 with his widowed mum.
While in 1871 C H goes off to Birmingham, with their dau Catherine aged 3, to her recently widowed brother in law Charles French. And in 1881 C H is with her mum Ann Quick in Milverton, Somerset.
These is a possible death for John 1st qtr 1884 Taunton reg district, which covers Churchstanton.
Margaret Burke can be seen 1841 and 1851 in Bristol as dau of John Burke with lots of siblings, or another Marg in 1851 a lodger charwoman, born Bedminster, Glos.
Am I mixing cousin John Warren with John and Marg Warren of Bristol?
Do I have to shop for birth certificates of Jane and Mary A to solve this?
Salute,
Janelle
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There is a new facility on the GRO Index Searches - they show Mother's Maiden Name for nearly all births from 1837!
You have to register, but otherwise it's free.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates
Finding out what the mother's maiden name was will help you in a search for a likely marriage?
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I can find baptisms for Mary Jane 1857 and Mary Ann 1860, dau of John and Margaret Warren, at Bristol St Mary Redcliffe, which is why I am searching for a marriage.
These 2 girls are on the GRO birth index with mmn as BURKE.
Very strange, I've followed John through the censuses that you mention. I don't see a marriage between a Warren and a Burke (with alternatives)*. Your John doesn't seem to have moved far away from his birthplace.
Do you have him in 1841? I have a John Warren, aged 10, staying with a John Warren, aged 65, yeoman, in Ashcott, Bridgewater but I'm thinking that that might be the cousin you refer to - HO107/964/1/20/10
You don't mention Margaret, Jane and Mary Ann after 1861 - have you found any of them in later censuses - or a death for Margaret?
* the nearest that I've found is a Margaret Bork m a Jeremiah Hern, Bristol TM, 26 May 1856 but really not sure that that's a good fit. (Father's name ~ William)
Added - so far, nothing on Passenger lists :-\
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Thankyou Gadget, you are finding/seeing what I see.
So apart from being at Bridgwater which is close to Bristol in 1851, I don't have real proof that it's my cousin john fathering 2 children with Margaret in Bristol, its the family being at Churchingford in 1861 that is the only time so far that they are together.
Finding the women in later census is what is needed.
Salute
Janelle
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;D and researching the 2 Margarets in Bristol as well as any John Warrens there.
Familysearch and anc* have the same baptism info, don't they always. I thought just finding the maiden names on the GRO index would make things easier but I'm no closer, haha
Salute
Janelle
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Hi!
I am having the same problem with John Warren. I can't find any trace of him marrying
Margaret.( Do you know what happened to Margaret and the children after 1861? ) My
great grandfather was John's younger brother Mark and I was interested in finding out what
happened to his brothers and sisters. I haven't had any luck with the oldest sister Mary Ann
b 1823 (after she was a dairymaid for her grandfather in 1841) or with brother William b.1835
after the 1871 census, though you are maybe not interested in them.
Good luck with your hunt,
CG
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Hi Janelle
I have tracked down the information I wanted about Mary Ann and William Warren (who was
knocked down and killed by a traction engine) but I also found out what happened to John.
According to the Taunton Courier and Advertiser of 13th February 1884, John Warren (54)
died at Marle Pit Farm, Churchstanton, after upwards of nine years' severe illness. Charlotte
was with her mother Ann Quick in Milverton in 1881 but I can't find anything about her after that.
CG
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Hello CG !!
Apologies for the silence. I have not been looking at Rootschat the last week.
Your great grandfather was Mark Warren b 1843, married Elizabeth Valentine in 1866 at Churchstanton, and died 1936 in Taunton.
There is a beautiful picture of Mark Warren and his family in Jonathon Spiller's anc* tree.
Mark's parents were William Warren and Mary Hurford, your 2x great grandparents, and they were the witnesses to the marriage of Robert Warren and Mary Moore in 1822 at Hemyock, Devon, who were my 4x great grandparents.
Hello COUSIN !! I wish it was as simple as William being present at Robert's wedding to prove kinship. :-\ :-[ sigh, you could just to take my word for it, or read the following saga epic explanation here, ;D even if it is a significant tangent to the original topic.
::) Back to John b 1829...
Thankyou for the info on John's demise. I think the enumerator messed up with the Churchingford shoemaker John giving him a family from Bristol.
Charlotte Honor Quick, who your gg uncle John did marry in 1863, was born in Hemyock about 1830 to Ann Warren and John Quick, but baptised 1831 in Cutcombe, Somerset, where her parents Simon and Elizabeth had gone to after 1815, after quitting Upottery, Devon.
Ann Warren was baptised in Hemyock 1 Jan 1797, eldest child of Simon and Elizabeth How, who had married at Churchstanton Feb 1796. Ann has many siblings, and a younger sister is Jane, who is another 4x ggm of mine.
I cannot find baptisms for any of Ann's siblings, which was also another topic on RC.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=720274.msg5770408#msg5770408
When my Jane marries Thomas Baker at Cutcombe in 1827, her sister Ann's husband John Quick is a witness.
My 5th ggf Simon and your William senior were BROTHERS - sons of Robert and Amy Warren of Clayhidon, the next parish over. This is why CH's 2 of 3 older sisters, Elizabeth and Frances Jane Quick are visiting your William senior and Mary Warren, in Churchstanton, on census night 1841, being their great uncle.
Meanwhile, their younger sisters, the above mentioned Charlotte Honor Quick, aged 10 and baby sister Lavinia Harriet, 6, are at home with widowed mum Ann Quick, at Madford (can there be such a place) in Hemyock.
Charlotte and John have a dau Catherine Mary 1868. In 1871 Charlotte has taken Catherine aged 3, to Aston, Birmingham, to the husband of the now deceased Lavinia, namely Charles French. This also where Ann Quick was census night 1861, visiting dau LH and son in law Charles. I wonder what happen to the little one Catherine, as she isn't with CH in 1881?
And none of this solves poor Bristol Margaret !! It just keeps me up very late, haha.
Salute,
Janelle
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Hi Jonelle!
I think you are probably my 6th cousin once removed!!
Thank you for all the information - especially for giving the names of Simon and William's
parents. William was as far back as I had been able to get. Do you have any birth or death
dates for Robert and Amy?
Sadly the Warren name is now dying out on my branch of the family as Mark's son Richard's
descendants are all girls.
Thanks again
CG
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Hi Jonelle!
I think you are probably my 6th cousin once removed!!
Thank you for all the information - especially for giving the names of Simon and William's
parents. William was as far back as I had been able to get. Do you have any birth or death
dates for Robert and Amy?
Sadly the Warren name is now dying out on my branch of the family as Mark's son Richard's
descendants are all girls.
Thanks again
CG
Hey cousin CG,
I just noticed that you have just 3 posts to your name !! Welcome to Rootschat. ;D
I'm glad to have helped you with the Warrens. ;)
I have questions for you now about your William. Have you found his marriage? anything about his wife Ann, and were there any other earlier children, maybe baptised elsewhere for them, than John the shoemaker 1803 and William junior 1802?
Are you familiar with the area of Devon / Somerset border that the Warrens came from? Clayhidon and Churchstanton are in the Black Down Hills below the M5 and Taunton. Churchstanton is easy to research online but Clayhidon is hit and miss. Clayhidon is very important to solving the Warrens.
A previous vicar and churchwardens of that parish reclaimed and held onto the registers, away from Devon Records Office, until very recently, and so FindMyPast did not have them to photograph and transcribe when they did most of Devon. I have not found out when or if FindMyPast will be doing anything about this, but was told that they are now (safe again :-X) at DRO aka Devon Heritage Centre.
The Clayhidon local history group http://clayhidon.org/home probably has a digital or microfilm copy now. I did not had a nice time dealing with the chair back in 2015. Maybe it was me...
I have had email contact with another cousin of ours descended from the generation further back, amongst the of siblings of our common Robert Warren. This lady volunteers at Honiton's Allhallows Museum (which also has microfiche of Clayhidon), and has also worked out our rellies. ;D
I bought a copy of the fiche back in 2015 from DRO, and she and I have conferred and agree on the same tree, hehe ;D
Because the younger Robert Warren that I descend from named Clayhidon as his birthplace in census, and came back from Brompton Regis to live at Callers farm when he "retired" at 60yrs, I googled "Robert Warren of Clayhidon" and come across the website for Devon Freeholders which helped me understand the origins of the Warrens
http://www.foda.org.uk/freeholders/QS7/56/hemyock.htm
... but I have not found Robert's baptism and so can not be 100% satisfied that he is the eldest son of my Simon. :-\
With the Clayhidon registers on fiche it has been very simple to solve the Warrens, because they stay put back thru time to the first pages. Beautiful marvelous. So if you can view them at your leisure you can have the enormous fun of finding the baptism of your William and his siblings, and almost everyone else. If however you wish me to help you further with Clayhidon, send me a personal message and we will take it from there.
Salute,
Janelle
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I am new to rootschat - I found your information by google search.
Can you please tell me if you are talking about William Warren and Mary Hurford? I am trying to find more information on their son Robert 1806-1884 married to Mary Ann Moore and their two sons Simon Warren (Elizabeth Hewish) and John Warren (Frances Baker) who I believe came from England and settled in Ohio.
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Hello jcichon !!
Welcome to Rootschat.
My apologies for not replying earlier, and for being brief now, but I will answer you when I get home from work and am free after dinner and the grocery shopping.
Salute,
Janelle
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Hello cjichon,
I hope you have a real first name to greet you with.
I have looked over your posting and am confused.
If you are researching William Warren and Mary Hurford, you can look for the baptisms of their children via the free websites like GenUKI,
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/Churchstanton
for church records
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/Churchstanton#ChurchRecords
and Roy Parkhouse
http://www.parkhouse.org.uk/
W and M don't have a son Robert. Only 2 sons -
John b 1829 the shoemaker of the subject line here, and
William b 1832 also referred to in the my post here dated 1 April 2017, replying to his descendant CG.
My Robert Warren married Mary Moore. This is well represented in several public Ancestry trees, and freely available from John Warren's death cert downloadable from familysearch. ;)
W and M live all their lives in Churchstanton parish. So do other brothers and cousins. My Warrens moved away, to Upottery nearby and into Somerset. It is invaluable to Warren researchers to take note of the farms in Churchstanton that each family is at in the church records and censi
(that word looks too weird so I googled and one dictionary said it is OK to say censuses :P ;D ;D)
It's also important to understand that Churchstanton was in Devon and is now Somerset. Old records are at Devon Heritage Centre, and later deposits are at Somerset HC. hmm maybe not such a problem now that Anc and FindMyPast have got lots of the stuff online. Just not quite everywhere or everything.
Are you asking about that William and Mary, or my Robert and Mary?
What is your connection?
The last line of the 2nd last paragraph of my post here dated 1 April 2017 is still my situation, Robert Warren is my brickwall.
I await your input so we can help each other.
Salute,
Janelle (my real name ;D)
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I am so glad to find this site and to find you. My name in Jackie and my great grandmother-Eva Warren was daughter to William Elliott Warren and Pheobe Shumaker (buried in Orwell/North Bloomfield, Ohio.)
William Warren's father is Simon Warren married to Elizabeth Ann Hewish. That is confirmed in my Ohio records.
Now this is what I am confused on:
I have Simon's parents being Robert Warren and Mary Ann Moore. Did they have a son name Simon?
Then notes state without birthdates that Robert's parents were William Warren and Mary Hurford. but you have all ready told me that this is incorrect.
I have never been to GenUKI - I will take time this weekend and check that site out. Wonderful!
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Hello Jackie
Greeting cousin !! ;)
No panic - your Simon definetly was the younger brother of my John. They also had a sister Elizabeth b 1825 Hemyock.
Let's clear up the confusion of Mary Hurford and William Warren.
William would have been a contemporary/cousin of Robert. They are of similar ages and location.
WW was born 1802 at Churchstanton, son of the elder Simon's brother William b 1762 Clayhidon.
WW and MH witness the marriage of Robert and Mary 1822 at Hemyock.
WW is William junior in the register when he marries MH 1823 Churchstanton.
Robert is without baptism proof of age or parents, but usually gives about 1801 at Hemyock, or Clayhidon, in the censuses.
Do you know of any written or oral history made by your Simon or my John about who their father's parents were?
You say ... "Then notes state without birthdates that Robert's parents were William Warren and Mary Hurford."
Is this statement old, part of your family's folklore, of pre computer era?
Enjoy your weekend browsing Devon and Somerset resources.
Salute,
Janelle
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Your John died in 1910 in Huntsburg, Ohio - very close to where I grew up. What was his birth date?
Now their parents are Robert Warren and Mary Ann Moore, correct?
Do you have any history on Mary Ann Moore's family?
Then is there any relationships with William and Mary (Hurford) Warren?
My research came from my great aunt, done by hand through Washington DC library. It was a complete dead end for her.
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Hello Jackie,
Are your great aunt's notes and research saved digitally, are you able to share them with me, please. :D 8)
RC has a private messaging system where contact details can be exchanged, so that things can be done by email, etc. 8) 8)
Click my name on the left of this post to get to where you can PM me easily.
I know you probable have lots to be going on with but ...
You have to let go of William W and Mary Hurford.
These guys don't connect to Robert Warren UNTIL evidence is found for his baptism or another source.
However, William W's father is a cousin to Francis Ann Baker's mother, because their fathers were brothers.
Mary Moore is never found with Ann in her name.
Her family were at Hemyock. The following link is for her marriage to RW in the transcriptions for that parish on a free site
https://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=12&bookID=111&pagecount=188&submit=Next
If you browse that "book" you should be able to find all her family going back to generations.
And our John's baptism
https://ukga.org/cgi-bin/browse.cgi?action=ViewRec&DB=12&bookID=111&pagecount=137&submit=Previous
You can gets lots of John Warren facts from familysearch, including his death certificate which has a birthdate for him.
And I have previously had conversations with our mutual Cousin Brinda here on Rootschat, although she has not been active for ages
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=208864.msg5610198#msg5610198
I'll leave you in peace, burdened with yet more information.
Rome wasn't built in a day. I reckon its the same for building your tree.
I've been searching and researching for my Warrens online since 2011.
I am very careful to collect real evidence for every person and any event that affects them.
I very much look forward seeing your auntie's stuff. :-X :D ;D 8)
Salute,
Janelle