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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Nanna52 on Wednesday 01 March 17 07:08 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find out more information about my cousins service in the merchant navy during World War 2.
His name was Horace Thomas Mabley Vincent. ( Mostly he just used Horace Thomas Vincent).
He was born in Redruth, Cornwall December 19, 1888.
I found a record of medals awarded and he has AT and 1939 circled and WM added.
I believe his number is 739996
Can you guide me where to look for further information about his service. Thank you in advance.
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From the National Archives:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/merchant-seaman-serving-after-1917/
Hope that helps.
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Thanks Nanny Jan I will investigate the suggestions from the research guides.
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It appears that he has no "seaman's pouch" in the series BT372 This is not unusual as many were destroyed in the 1950's. A shame as these usually contain a mugshot photograph.
The record you really want is his form CRS10 which will tell you the ships he served on from early 1941 together with dates and places of engagement and discharge. These records are stored alphabetically in blocks of 60 names. If any where it should be here.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10990077
You would be best served visiting Kew yourself.
That said he has two records from the Fourth register of Merchant Seamen 1918-1941 on FindMyPast. One from 1919, including a photograph, when he signed on the Liverpool registered ship INKULA official number 109335 ( This vessel was the former Italian steamer PALLANZA) as 3rd Engineer.
There is then a big gap in his records, why I don't know, when he signed on as 2nd Engineer on the London registered steamship HARTISMERE o/n 163309, in March 1938.
The 1938 Crew agreements of HARTISMERE are lodged with The Maritime History Archive in Newfoundland.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=163309
If you can get hold of this then it should tell you his previous ship and in this way you can then back track via crew agreements to find the names of all of his vessels back from 1938 to 1919 and maybe even further back than that. Be aware he could have left the sea between these dates
I note he has an Engineers Certificate of Competency. Certificate number 55641. Perhaps if you do go to Kew you could also try and find this, or better still his Certificate of Service.
Oop's. Just noticed you live in Australia so getting to Kew would be a problem. If you can wait a week or three, I will try and get hold of his CRS 10 for you. Just PM me in a couple of weeks to jog the memory.
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Thank you Seawood that is a very kind offer. I have only known of his existence for a couple of years, so waiting a couple of weeks is fine.
So that you are not wasting your time this is what I have found out.
WW1 joined RN 19 Jan 1916.
19 Jan 1916 to 6 Mar 1916 Pembroke II
7 Mar 1916 to 27 Aug 1918 Clio
28 Aug 1918 to 25 Feb 1919 Pembroke II
He had joined the army 30 Sept 1914 and stayed there until he transferred to the navy. He had also done an apprenticeship with Earle's Engineering Co, I presume around the Hull area.
I have found him and his wife Kathleen, nee Fox, in Western Australia in the twenties and thirties. He returned to England in 1934 ( Nov 8 th on the .Barradine). They returned to live in Hull.
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I knew I had seen their arrival in Australia, earlier than I thought, January 1921 on the Zealandic. Writing is a bit awkward so I can't decipher what his occupation was.
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OK. The time he spent in WA would explain the gap in his British MN record. For the period 1938-1941 this information would have been contained in his Seaman's pouch.
Regarding his WW1 Royal Navy records. Maybe one of the RN experts can give you a detailed appraisal of his service but as far as I know, PEMBROKE II was a shore establishment on the Isle of Sheppey and CLIO was a training base at Bangor North Wales.
Will be in touch.
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Thank you Seawood.
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Found the CRS 10 of Horace Thomas Vincent.
From the 10/Sept 1941 until 13/May/1948 he served in various Engineering ranks on the ship MACCLESFIELD official number 136014.
http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/M-Ships/macclesfield1914.html
From the 15/May/1948 until 28/Dec/1948 He was second engineer on the vessel SELBY O/N 146505
http://www.aberdeenships.com/single.asp?searchFor=selby&index=99913
Horace Thomas Vincent Left the Merchant Navy in 1949. His CRS 56 (Transfer of a seaman to national registration and civil rationing) was issued at his own request in Hull on 25/June/1949. This was verified 6/July/1949
I don't know as yet what the wartime roles of these ship's. TNA took ages to copy the CRS10 and I did not have time to look at their logbooks and crew agreements.
You can however download their movement cards which will give you a fairly good understanding of their wartime service.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=macclesfield&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=BT+389&_col=200&_dt=SS&_hb=tna
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=selby&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=BT+389&_col=200&_dt=SS&_hb=tna
If you want copies of the CRS10. Send a PM with your postal address and I will post them to you. They are too large to send by e-mail.
SW
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Thank you seaweed, I have sent a PM.
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Convoys involving MACCLESFIELD
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http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/ports/index.html?search.php?vessel=MACCLESFIELD~armain
Apart from the vessels movement card the only other way to seek more information of her wartime role is to look at her logbooks from late 1943 until the end of the war.
In all honesty I don't think the reward will be worth the effort. I could look at the logbooks pre 1941 to see what vessels he served on since he signed off HARTISMERE.
If you would like me to look, then it's no problem next time I visit Kew. Or are you happy with what you have?
I don't know if ANCESTRY has records of service for engineers. It may be worth enquiring.
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Regarding his service in the Royal Navy he joined HMS PEMBROKE II 9th January - 6th March 1916, ERA IV = Engine Room Artificer IV Class. He spent the rest of the war mainly on the China Station aboard the sloop HMS CLIO. Her logbook is here: http://www.naval-history.net/OWShips-WW1-18-HMS_Clio.htm
I have also attached his medal file. He was awarded the Victory Medal and The British War Medal.
Regards
Hugh
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Seaweed, what an interesting site. I know what I will be doing this weekend, forget the Aussie GP. ;D
As an aside his wife died August 26 1942. They had been travelling from Hull to Cornwall for a few days holiday when she fell off the train, believed to have opened the wrong door in the blackout.
If you have time then anything you can find out about him is welcome. The one thing I don't have is next of kin after his wife died if you see it anywhere.
I will check Ancestry to see if there is any information on him.
Thank you HMac for the information on his WW1 service. I will read that too.
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The one thing I don't have is next of kin after his wife died if you see it anywhere.
Crew Agreements usually give NOK. Will take a look at the same next time I visit Kew. Approx 6 weeks, just give me a jog around that time.