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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: feeline190 on Monday 06 March 17 18:22 GMT (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters!
I have been working on my Dads side of the tree and I have been trying to find my Granddad's step brother Edward Saunders born c.1884 in Rawtenstall according to the 1901 census but the problem I have is that I can't find any birth record or christening record for him and I cant find him on any other censuses other than 1901 either.
His mother was Elizabeth Saunders nee Grady and I believe that she married Edward's father in 1876 in Bolton. I can not find a death for Edwards father either. Edwards mother married my great granddad(owen fee) in 1889 in Blackburn. I found a death for Edward which I believe is him in Blackburn in 1958 and I have also found a marriage in Blackburn in 1938 which states that his father was John Edward Saunders (deceased) and it states the Edward was a widower a the time of the marriage and he was a coal miner. please can someone help me as I am obviously missing something but can't figure out what!
Eternally grateful!
Feeline190
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Hi so that we can get some idea of the Fee family, this is 1901 census:-
Owen Fee 40 occ Hawker Oilcloth b Chorley
Elizabeth 40 occ Hawker Oilcloth b Haslingden
Edward Saunders 17 Step son occ Lab in Brewery b Rawtenstall
Margt Grady 12 Step daughter b Blackburn
Catherine Fee 10 b Blackburn, plus other Fee children 1894-1899
Residng at 3, Gray Square, Blackburn
Census Ref RG13/3907/139/15
Owen Fee married ( on same page) Elizabeth Saunders Sept qtr 1889 Blackburn 8c 777
So how is Margaret Grady younger than Edward Saunders or am I missing something?
Keyboard86
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Hi,
That's the right family, Margaret Grady is another person I cant find a birth or a christening record for either all I can gather is she is my great granddads daughter but she may have been born before they married and to stop people think she was from the other marriage they called her Grady?
It's all very complicated really.
Feeline190
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IT took me a while to find 1901 and I have been searching for 1891 with no success yet.
Do you have the family in 1891 feeline190?
Here is 1881 3846/45/14
John Saunders 27 yrs Hawker b Huddersfield
Elizabeth Saunders 22 yrs b Haslingden
Bridget Saunders 5 yrs b Middleton
John Saunders 9 months b Rawtenstall
I wonder if Edward is John but the age is wrong too. :-\
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National School Admissions:
Mayson Street Day Industrial School, Blackburn
Date of committal: October 26th 1894 Date of admission: October 29th 1894
Term of detention: 3 years
Edward Saunders age 11, date of birth 24th May 1884
Roman Catholic
Character: neglected
Name of step father: Owen Fee, character indifferent
Name of mother: Elizabeth, character neglectful
Address: 105 Chapel Street
Occupation: hawker
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He joined the Army in 1903:
Edward Saunders
Birth year:1885
Birth parish:St Anns
Birth town: Blackburn
Attestation date:30 Apr 1903
Attestation age:18 years and 11 months
Service number:2560
Attestation corps: 3rd East Lanc Regt
Discharged 25th May 1903 by purchase of payment of £1.
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Found them in 1891 but still no Edward and the family are listed as Hart
1891 3404/58/35
Owen Hart 28 yrs
Elizabeth Hart 30 yrs
Margaret Hart 3 yrs
Catherine Hart 3 months
John Grady 50 yrs
Bridget Grady 47 yrs
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In 1891 they are under hart and live at 11 dale street Blackburn. Edward is not with them.
I also thought the 1881 census is them and that the John was Edward but i have found a baptism record for Bridget in bury and another in Accrington for a James William. there is a comment that they are tramps.
SGF28 please could you advise me where you found that record? it's definitely them.
Feeline190
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Keyboard, that's what's puzzling me.
This is what I got from Lancs BMD:
Births:
1890 Mary Winifred Garrity mmn. Saunders, Accrington sub-division (?)
1893 Hugh Fee mmn Saunders, Blackburn
1896 Owen Fee mmn. Saunders, Blackburn
Marriage:
1889 Owen Fee married Elizabeth Saunders, Blackburn registry office or registrar attended.
(No indication on index that Elizabeth had another surname)
1873 John Saunders married Elizabeth Grady, Bolton St. George
1876 Mary Sanders married Edward Garrity, Hyndburn reg. office or registrar attended.
So was Saunders Elizabeth's maiden name or her married name? How many husbands did she have, 1, 2, or 3?
Father's name on Edward's marriage certificate may not have been real, or accurate.
Feeline, have you seen the marriage cert. of Elizabeth & Owen?
I don't see Edward on another census either.
I see there have been other replies while I've been searching.
Edit. Sorry, I read Marg't as Mary and Noah as Norah. Also Fee looked like Lee on census .
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yes maiden stone i have Owen and Elizabeth's marriage cert and it states her father as John Grady so as far as i know she marries twice once to John Saunders and then to Owen Fee. Its driving me a bit mad really.
Feeline190
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Margaret and Catherine Fee were both in Mayson Street Day Industrial School, Blackburn in October 1899, address 26 Byrom Street. Both neglected.
Margaret's date of birth: 10th June 1888
Catherine's date of birth: 5th January 1890
Not helping finding Edward later on though.
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oh my god! I knew they were poor but those poor children.
Feeline190
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Baptisms:
St. Joseph R. C. , Bury 1876, Birgetta (Bridget) SANDERS, parents Joannis & Elizabeth (formerly Grady). Godmother Susanna McAlister
Sacred Heart, Accrington, R.C., 1882 James William SAUNDERS, parents John Saunders & Elizth (formerly Grady). Godparents Wm. Hopwood, Sarah Gorman. There's a note "tramps".
Edward may have been born in Ireland. He might have been Eamon. Or possibly in Liverpool or another port to/from Ireland. Birthplace of Rawtenstall on 1901 census may have been where Owen or Elizabeth thought he'd been born. My Irish grandparents were "settled people", but even so, travelled back & forth between Ireland & England, having children in each country.
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Hi again, LancsBMD may have the births of Hugh and Owen Fee as mmn Saunders, but the GRO Index has them as mmn Grady?
Keyboard86
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I have also considered that a possibility and I also thought that he may also be with his fathers family but without knowing a bit more about John Saunders I'm stuck. I may go and look through parish records at the records office and see if i can find anything.
Yes Keyboard86 that's right she was Grady but Married a Saunders and was widowed.
Feeline190
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Hi again the births of Hugh and Owen on LancsBMD record them both as either Mothers Maiden name Saunders/Sanders or Grady
Keyboard86
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http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
Marriage: 29 Dec 1873 St George, Bolton, Lancashire,
John Sanders - (X), Full, Hawker, Bachelor, Bolton
Elizabeth Grady - (X), Full, Spinster, Bolton
Groom's Father: James Sanders, Hawker
Bride's Father: John Grady, Labourer
Witness: James Gorman; Sarah Gorman,
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Owen Hart (48) burial 1887 St. James the Less, Rawtenstall. Could he have aka John Saunders?
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http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
Marriage: 29 Dec 1873 St George, Bolton, Lancashire,
John Sanders - (X), Full, Hawker, Bachelor, Bolton
Elizabeth Grady - (X), Full, Spinster, Bolton
Groom's Father: James Sanders, Hawker
Bride's Father: John Grady, Labourer
Witness: James Gorman; Sarah Gorman,
Sarah Gorman was also godmother to son James.
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http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
Baptism:
28 Nov 1875 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancashire
Jacobus Gorman - filius Jacobi Gorman & Sarah (formerly Saunders)
Born: 10 Nov 1875
Abode: 8 Blackburn St. off Salford
Godparents: Joannes Saunders; Elizabetha Saunders
Looks like Sarah Gorman was John Saunders sister.
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1861 2981/24/3
22 Scotland Street Ashton u Lyne
Bridget Sanders 44 yrs b Blackburn
Sally Sanders 10 yrs b Wakefield
Elizabeth Sanders 8 yrs b Preston
John Sanders 6 yrs b Huddersfield
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Owen Hart was buried in Rawtenstall cemetery 1887, plasterer (48), R.C., Lower Booths parish. Also buried in the cemetery were more Harts, all R.C., 2 from workhouse, abode Lower Booths.
Another burial there in Catholic part (1877) was Bridget Saunders, (59), widow, abode Colne, removed from Rawtenstall parish. In the same month a hawker named John Cullen (R.C.) was buried from the workhouse. (Lancs OPC)
1871 census. An Elizabeth Grady (14 b. Haslingden)) was in a lodging house in Blackburn 17-21 Byrow St. Blackburn. With her were John (48, b. Manchester), Bridget (36, b. Ireland), Catherine (3, b. Accrington) & John (1m., b.Accrington). They were among a household of 44 people, including a hawker. John Grady was an outdoor lab.
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Thanks for all for the replies,
I've been to see my Aunty to see if she could tell me anything else but she was really surprised at what you lovely people have given me. I think I'm going to order his death certificate and I'm also going to do some digging into workhouses around the area and hopefully I'll be able to rule somethings out. I'm also going to go to preston records office to look through records for st ann's parish which was where his mum and my great granddad where married.
Fingers crossed I get some answers!
Feeline190
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I see that James Gorman was baptised at St. Mary of the Assumption in Burnley. I had cause to look at the baptism register on Lancs OPC in mid-Feb. in connection with an enquiry from "mlmcholm". The title was "Agnes Green baptism 1890". (Sorry, I can't do a link.) The child seemed to have had 2 baptisms, several months apart. The 1st (actual baptism) was in the workhouse. The 2nd "baptism" was an additional ceremony at church, with godparent(s). Browsing through the register for a few months in 1890-1 picked up similar double entries for other babies who had apparently started life in the workhouse.
Records for Burnley Workhouse went on Lancs OPC last month; there are only a few years so far.
Given the background of the Saunders & Fees they might have come to the attention of Catholic Charities.
Most parishes had a St. Vincent de Paul group which gave alms to the poor in their own parish: e.g. food, clogs for children to wear to school (clogs had "not to be pawned " burnt into sole to prevent parents using them to get money for drink.) Each SVP group kept an account book.
Thinking about where the children may have spent time. There were Catholic orphanages in Manchester, Preston and probably other towns. A girl cousin of my GGM was in the one in Preston at the age of 6; her little brother was a boarder in a family household. Their parents died in the same year. 2 other little girls of the same age in the orphanage may have been more distant cousins of GGM. Tracing those children wasn't straightforward; inaccurate information was on census. GGM's own mother died when she was 10. She, her younger sister + the 2 orphaned cousins were living with a married aunt when they were in their teens.
March edition of BBC History magazine has an article: Escaping the Workhouse; the Victorian war on child poverty. It has descriptions and illustrations of "separate schools" and cottage homes.
I'm curious about why the family became "Hart" for a time.
Have you looked at Vagrancy records?
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Hi Maiden Stone,
Where would I find the vagrancy records please?
I think they changed their name so much because they may have been in trouble with the authorities. I've no proof of course. I do know that Owen's mother was a Hart before marriage so it might just be that it was a convenient name to use.
Feeline190
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Lancashire archives has vagrancy documents. A lot of them date from earlier in 19th century. Put "vagrants" in the search box in the online catalogue.
Lancs. Archives also has documents of the Reformatory & Industrial Schools committee. Ref. QAB.