RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Roy G on Tuesday 07 March 17 21:38 GMT (UK)
-
Hi there
I am after a bit of info on Joseph Warm who belonged to a Russian family of tailors and capmakers who came to Manchester around 1905. I have him on the 1911 census, his marriage, naturalisation and death in a Manchester Jewish hospital in 1949, but am trying to fill in a few gaps.
Does anyone have a Manchester Kellys directory (or electoral role) from around the 1930s that would give me some idea where he was living and who with?
Regards Roy G
-
Have you looked at 1939 register?
Suz
-
What was his DOB and when did he marry?
-
Missing Info
Joseph Warm (son of Simon Warm born Russia 1873 who died Manchester 1931)
Joseph was born Russia 1901-1902.
Shown with parents and siblings on 1911 Manchester census.
Married Charlotte Evans nee Merrington (possible divorcee rather than widow, now deceased) St Asaph (Wales) 1940
Couple were almost certainly together in Manchester area prior to the marriage.
(Does Charlotte appear separately in a 1930s Manchester Kellys?).
Offiically Naturalised 1947
Died Prestwich 1949.
Children living so do not reveal any details on them.
Want to know where he was between 1911 and 1940.
regards Roy G
-
Want to know where he was between 1911 and 1940.
regards Roy G
Official records this recent are few and far between.
You have BMD records (But you appear to have them).
There is the 1939 National Register.
There is a Joseph Warm in Northampton? You'll need to pay to see the details.
There might be Electoral Rolls - but you need to know where he was living.
The 1921 census isn't available yet - if you wait a few years, you might find him on there.
I often tell people that the hardest part of tracing a Family History is the most recent 100 years?
So many records are closed for that period of time.
-
thanks for looking.
I was hoping someone had a few o;d Kellys directories at home (I have 3 but they are all for Brighton)
Regards Roy G
-
If you search as advised I think you will find Charlotte OliveEvans nee Merrington was using the name Charlotte Olive Warm before 1940 - her father was John Henry merrington and her step mother was Mary J Merrington- possibly they and others all lived together in the Manchester area
What makes searching a little difficult is there was a Joseph Warm b c 1901 Manchester parents Harris and Rose
Some trees have this Joseph as marrying Charlotte Olive 1940 in Manchester and he is in Northampton in 1939 working as a cap maker
Do you have Joseph & Charlotte Olive's marriage cert??
Suz
-
Thanks so much, I had not realised that Harris also had a son Joseph. That explains how the birth year seemed to switch from 1901 to 1902. I wonder what happened to the son of Harris?
Can you tell me where and when you found Charlotte using the surname Warm?
Roy G
-
Do you have Joseph's marriage cert? some trees show Joseph the son of Harris as being the Joseph who married Charlotte Olive
as I previously said check the 1939 register -we are not allowed to post from that
Suz
-
1901 census there is Joseph warm age 1 b Manchester with parents Harris & Rosa
I couldn't find a birth reg for him -then I found
FreeBMD
Birth
Joe Worm
Dec qtr 1899 Prestwich
8d 406
Suz
-
Have cert and register already checked, but the info about the a further Joe Worm is new to me. Thanks.
Not Ancestry member so cant follow a tree there, mine and an alternative with significant differences, is on Geni.
Harris and Simon (Russian fathers of what are now two Josephs) were possible brothers but I had not looked for the name listed as WORM. The 1901 census for Harris as WORM is a new find.
As Joseph 1902 seems to have been a single man living in a Northampton boarding house in 1939, and other info I have about Charlotte also relates to Northampton, it looks like I may have to abandon my search for Joseph in 1930s Manchester and switch it to 1930s Northampton.
The record says factory owner in 1939 (I can write that because he is deceased) but I recall there were factories and sweat-shops. I think it may have been the latter.
Regards Roy G
-
Hello,
do you have his probate details? I can't see a mention. Although he died in the Jewish Hospital, Manchester, his address is Derbyshire.
I haven't given the full address as you mention living descendants and you may know this anyway.
Regards
Heywood
-
Yes thanks, I do have access to all that info. The only gap I am trying to fill is in the 1930s. I was trying to be discrete, but the main interest was when and where did he and his divorcee partner begin to live as a couple. Revealing too much obviously gives rise to other issues that could still effect elderly living relatives, so I cant be too explicit.
Roy
-
1901
110 Mary Street, Cheetham Manchester
Harris Warm Head 34 born Russia Cap Maker
Rosa Warm Wife 32 born Russia
Michael Warm Son 7 born Manchester
Amelia Warm Daughter 5 born Manchester
Louis Warm Son 3 born Manchester
Joseph Warm Son 1 born Manchester
Sam Poznansky Boarder 23 born Russia Tailor
-
Death 1911 Joseph WARM aged 12 registered Cheetham
-
good find - so the tree on A*****y seems to be wrong
More importantly you are following the correct line
Suz
-
Thanks for all your help.
Now taking 'Time Out', and politely asking elderly descendants that do know more, to try to be more communicative.
Regards Roy G
-
The only Warms in the Kellys Directory for 1940 are:
Abraham Warm, warehouseman, 46 Manley St, Salford 7
Michael Warm, garment maker, 6 Masboro' St, Ckeetham, Manchester 8
Miss [no first name] Warm, 37 Hampshire St, Higher Broughton, Salford 7
Mrs Bessie Warm, 11 Castle Hill Rd, Prestwich
:) Barbara
-
In the 1929 Manchester & Salford directory there are:
Mrs Bessie Warm, 9 Haley St, Cheetham Hill
Simon Warm, cap maker, 92 Mary St, Strangeways
You only get one name per household as a rule in the directories, so they can't tell you who else was living at any given address.
:) Barbara
-
I am the last living offspring of Joseph Warm (1901 -1949) and can fill in some of the history around his movements from Manchester (circa 1933) to Wellingborough and return to peak district Circa 1942). Lived in/near Hayfield but set up own cap factory in Manchester to which he travelled to/from every day. He collapsed at work and died in hospital (Manchester) but address was Hayfield.
Roy G: Thank you for considering sensitivities but there are no issues for me. I believe I know why my mother and he moved to Wellingborough but not exactly when. What is a mystery is exactly when did they move south and more importantly how the first marriage ended - divorce as per the Joseph Warm/Charlotte Olive Evans marriage cert suggests? Yet there are no divorce records I can find. I can find no records of her first husband after their marriage. He could have just disappeared. I would not be surprised if they lived as Mr & Mrs Warm until they actually married in 1940. What is also curious is why they went from Wellingborough to N. Wales to marry. That was not a short trip in those days. I don't know of any connection to No Wales. There would have been the potential embarrassment of 1) She was a divorcee (or not?), 2) there was a child (who actually remembers going to the wedding! and 3 He was marrying out of the [Jewish] faith.
If there is anything you or anyone can add I would be grateful.
-
Hi Dongdong
Thanks for dropping a line.
It must have been over a year ago that I started this string, and even that was not for me, it was for someone in the USA. I have to write "someone" because quite honestly, I have forgotten who it was, but I suspect they were from a Jewish Facebook group called TTT (Tracing the Tribe). I will now have to start looking at my past correspondence to see if I can find them again.
Regards Roy G
-
Roy
Sorry to pester you but have you had any luck in terms of remembering anything about whom you did your research for re the 'Russian Warms' in Manchester'?
Regards
-
No you are not pestering, just giving me a getle tap on the shoulder to try to follow it up again.. I will put out some feelers again and get back to you.
-
GOT IT
The reason I could not find the entry was that I should not have been looking for research I was doing for someone else, I should have actually been looking for the research I was doing on a Jewish connection to my own Canadian daughter in law’s family line. The link is certainly not close, but I do hope you find it of interest. Let’s start from Joseph Warm who was born 1901.
Birth: 1901
Death: 1949 (48) Prestwich, Greater Manchester, England, United Kingdom
Immediate Family: Son of Simon Warm and Fagie (Flora?) Warm
Husband of Charlotte Olive Evans - Warm *born Merrington*
Father of Pamela Merrington Bond and Donald Warm
Brother of Fanny (Frances) Warm; Daniel Warm; Morris Warm; Abraham Warm; Ameliia Woolfson; Soloman Warm and Mozes
The grandfather of Charlotte Olive Evans - Warm nee Merrington was John Merrington, 1851 – 1910, who was married to Ann Harrison Britain - Brittiam - Britton
Father of Charlotte (Lottie) Ann Massey; John Henry Merrington and *Sarah Jane Tatman Turner*
My daughter in law was (no, is) the great grand daughter of *Sarah Jane Tatman Turner*
So that’s where she fits, and therefore my interest. How do you fit?
Regards Roy G
-
Roy
Sorry only just got to this as my sytsem didn't alert me to a message though I don't know if is designed to do that?
Thank you so much for this information. It all helps and it is very interesting. I I suppose in some strange way (probably by 'law' as in in-law) we are related via your daughter in law!
I am the youngest son of Joseph Warm (1901-1949) and bother to Pamela Merrington Bond (nee Warm) now deceased. Our eldest bother (now deceased) is Donald Merrington Evans Warm.
You may be interested in my first message (dated 5th June 2018) in this string where I was responding to the exchanges you were having when you were appealing for "Russian Warms in Manchester"
There are a few details in your last message I need to clarify Such as Amelia Woolfson. It appears from your note that she was a sister of Francis, Daniel et al but I think she may have been the related to a Nathanial Woolfson who was married to Millicent Warm(1808-1886) but I cannot be sure as I have not checked any proper records.
It would be easier if we could converse more directly, say be email, but I am not sure how to set that up in confidence. Do you know?
-
Hi
Unfortunately I have not paid much attention to the area that interests you. I was just trying to get the overall picture of my daughter in law's ancestry to put onto the Geni website that I subscribe to. The tree I created for her only showed Amelia married to Nathan Woolfson (who I presume could also be known as Nathaniel) but I never followed his line back in time any further.
I therefore feel there will be little additional information that I can contribute to your own investigations, but if you do still wish to contact me outside Rootschat to thrash out a few related issues, please send me a Rootschat PM with your e-mail address so that we can chat more specifically.
Regards Roy G