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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Welsh Seeker6 on Thursday 09 March 17 19:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi all. I'm new here on RootsChat.
I have been looking for William H. Welsh who is my father's father. He was a ship's purser and also see him as a 2nd and 3rd steward on ships from Liverpool to NY, also going to Sierra Leone and the Caribbean. He worked for White Star Lines, Elder Dempster and the United Fruit Company. Trying to find out what family he was born into. I ordered shipping manifests from Newfoundland where he lists Manchester as his place of birth, but I know that he lived in Liverpool. There are so many William Welsh's that it is very confusing.
We are not sure if this information is true, but was told that William's father owned a shipping company and that he didn't want an office job but wanted to be out on the sea, and that is where we find him. He was born, according to the ages from the shipping registers, anywhere from 1880-1884, as he lists various ages during the years. Recently found a ship's register showing his address as 5 Hatherley Street, Liverpool in 1918. I then located who lived at that address in 1911 and there were two unrelated people that I didn't know and an Edward Welsh on 30 Hatherley Street, Liverpool (Seacombe?) in the 1911 Directory, but don't know if they are any relation; interestingly my dad was named Edward. I assume that he could have been renting a room for when he was back from sea, or it could be family.
One thing that I also just found out is that about 1921 on these ship registers he starts listing himself as Race: British, Nationality: Australian, instead of British, British. I'm not sure if he ever lived in Australia? or his family migrated there? That year Australia became independent I understand. My dad had never heard anything about Australia, although he never knew his dad and was told he died at sea, but his mom was prone to untruths. He seems to disappear off of the ship registers before 1930. I wonder if he went to Australia? I attempted to find him there, no luck. Any ideas?
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Welcome to rootschat.
Did William Welsh marry your Father's Mother? If so, when and where, please?
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Welcome :)
Do you know what middle initial H stood for?
Also, details of your father's birth would be helpful (where, when, full name) assuming he is no longer with us. Rootschat rules require that we don't post identifying info about living people.
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No, I don't think they were ever married as there is no record of it in Manhattan where she lived. When she purchased a house in Staten Island, it was registered with her first name and his last name, Mabel Welsh, as he couldn't purchase a home in this country. My dad also carried the last name Welsh in this census record, which listed William and their daughter, Doris. But she later reverted back to her "maiden" name and my dad, other than this listing, has his mother's maiden name.
The "H" I have always heard stood for Henry, although I have never seen a document that proves this.
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My dad is not sure where he was born. His mother told him Vinton, Iowa...we've been there and there is no record of his birth. I did recently find a newspaper article showing his mom visiting her brother in Vinton, Iowa about 2 weeks after my dad's birth date of July 28, 1916. His aunt said that he was born in NYC, which would be correct assuming that the birth date is right. There is no birth certificate in NYC either. The baptismal shows his name as Edward Joseph Van Sicklen, her as Mabel VS and father as Edward Joseph VS, Sr. Our thought is that he was illegitimate and she was trying to cover that up. Doris he was told died about age 4 or 5 after running into the street.
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OK, so this is the family in 1920 for others looking:
Jasmine St, Flushing, Queens, NY
William H Welsh Head Mar 37 Immigrated 1916 Alien English born of English parents, purser (ship)
Mabel do Wife Mar 32 born NY of US father and Swedish mother
Edward do Son 3.5 born NY
Doris do Daur 1mo born NY [age corrected]
1930: Saw Mill River Rd, Ossining, Westchester, NY
Mabel Van Sicklen Head 43 S born NY, father Iowa & mother Sweden
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My dad is not sure where he was born. His mother told him Vinton, Iowa...we've been there and there is no record of his birth. I did recently find a newspaper article showing his mom visiting her brother in Vinton, Iowa about 2 weeks after my dad's birth date of July 28, 1916. His aunt said that he was born in NYC, which would be correct assuming that the birth date is right. There is no birth certificate in NYC either. The baptismal shows his name as Edward Joseph Van Sicklen, her as Mabel VS and father as Edward Joseph VS, Sr.
Where and when was this baptism? I have found a different one.
Episcopal Diocese of New York
Baptised May 8, 1920 at Willard Parker Hospital
Edward Van Sicklen aged 4 years. Parents: William & Mable Van Sicklen. Sponsor: Miss Mohr.
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The only baptismal that I've ever seen is from Holy Rood Church (Episcopal) in Manhattan, NY on March 30, 1918 ("Easter Even"). Parents Edward N. Van Sicklen and Mabel Van Sicklen(nee Van Sicklen). Date and place of birth, Vinton, Iowa July 28, 1916. He was actually baptized Edward Norton VS and later took Joseph as a middle name was joining the Roman Catholic church.
Where did you find this information? I'm very interested!
Doris Welsh was listed as 1/12 under age and would have been a month old, not 1.5. So we estimate her born about Dec. 20 (+/-), 1919.
Thank you for alerting me to this!
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Yes, sorry - you are right of course about Doris' age in 1920.
The 1920 baptism for Edward can be seen on Ancestry. Willard Parker Hospital treated children for scarlet fever, diphtheria and measles. It may be that Edward became seriously ill and a baptism was carried out in ignorance of the fact he had already been baptised.
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You can even find precise statistics for Willard Parker Hospital's 1920 caseload online:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1320416/?page=5
1920 stats:
Scarlet Fever: 614 admissions, 75 deaths (12.0%)
Diphtheria: 1978 admissions, 308 deaths (15.7%)
Measles: 1006 admissions, 148 deaths (14.7%)
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I have Ancestry (US) and I can't see the baptism for Edward that you are seeing. Can you tell me what you submitted to see this? Does it provide an image to view? I would love to see this.
As I was looking for this I found a death certificate for Edward Van Sicklen, Age 4/12, birth year: about 1916. Death date April 2, 1917, Place: Bronx, NY. I will be sending for this as I always questioned whether his birth date was correct. His mom told my mother that she had twins and one died. I wonder if my dad was a twin? Once I get the death certificate, it will tell me who that parents are. This child would have to have been born about Dec. 2, 1916. It is possible that it is someone else. And obviously, my dad lived. I wonder if there was a mixup of names/children? The Bronx is within blocks of the place in Manhattan where my grandmother was living.
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Search this collection for Edward Van Sicklen - he should be first in the list of results:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=61224
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Possibly of interest?
Merchant Seaman Identity Certificate no 223053 (date unclear - could be 1920)
William Henry Welsh, purser.
Born 24 May 1887 Manchester.
British national, British father.
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For a possible Australian connection, have a look at this family:
1891: 116 Breck Rd, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Edward Welsh Head Mar 37 Tobacconist Lancashire Eccles
Antoinetta do Wife Mar 24 Lancs Manchester
Wm Henry do Son 2 Manchester [William Henry Welsh mmn Delungs, Sep qtr 1888 Chorlton]
Harold do Son 1 Liverpool [Harold Welsh mmn Bellungo, Dec qtr 1889 West Derby]
Edith Violet do Daur 1mo Liverpool
1901: 116 Breck Rd, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool
Edward W Welsh Head Mar 48 Tobacconist & confectioner Lancashire Eccles
Antonietta do Wife Mar 34 New South Wales
William H do Son 12 Manchester
Edith A do Daur 10 Liverpool [Edith Antonietta Welsh mmn Delungo, West Derby Jun qtr 1891]
Florence H do Daur 4 Liverpool [Florence Hilda Welsh mmn Dellings, West Derby Sep qtr 1896]
+ 1 female servant
1905: Birth reg of Doris Ida Welsh mmn Delungo, West Derby Sep qtr 1905.
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Hi there
These could be birth certificate records for William Born 24 May 1887 Manchester that avm228 found they are for one and same person.
WELSH William Herbert T Barton Irwell . Vol 8c p689 GRO
WELSHWilliam Herbert Turner Stretford Trafford STR/38/87 local registrar
M
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According to an online tree (usual caveats apply), Antonietta was born Cherubina Antonietta Maria Del Lungo in Florence, Italy, on 1 March 1867.
1877: Antonietta Del Lango, 10, aboard the Indus, London-Rockhampton
1883: Antoniette Dellungo marries Victor Sammartin (or San Martin), Sydney
By 1910 she was living as wife of Thomas Morgan Matthews in Perth, Western Australia and had a son, Clifford Gerald Matthews, by him in 1911. As Antonietta Welsh she married Thomas in Perth in 1917.
1950: Antonette Matthews dies in Perth.
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From GRO
William Herbert Turner Welsh, no mother's maiden name
GRO Reference: 1887 June Quarter in Barton Upon Irwell Volume 08C Page 689
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Thank you so much avm228!! I was able to access it via your link. It is not coming up on any searches on the US site. Are you in the UK? I was very excited to see it. From what I can see he is age 4, which matches. Yes, I would also say he was baptised twice. At the time she lived in Flushing, Queens, NY and she was Mabel Welsh on the 1920 Census taken in January 1920.
Also, thank you for the Merchant Seaman Identity Certificate, 1918!!
That is him. I actually just saw another ship register for him and it had his DOB as 24 May, 1884. I will be sending for his birth certificate(s); I may have to order a few as they seem to only have 3 month identifiers in addition to the name.
You have been a huge help in breaking through this wall. If you can think of anything else I can be pursuing, can you let me know? Many thanks!
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The GRO records are in quarters of the year March, June, September and December.
Grouping 3 months of records together with districts, and then volumes and finally the page number of that volume you get a single certificate! This is the Vol. & p numbers on the reference above
Good Huntig
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The Merchant Seaman Identity Card has a photo! (On Findmypast). It is indexed as 1918 but looking at the codes on the card it seems more likely to be dated 1920.
Have a look at the Welsh family I set out at reply #13. The mother Antonietta grew up in Australia and went back there permanently between 1905-1910, which, if this is the right family, may explain why your William claims to be Australian in some records. Antonietta may have played a little fast & loose with marriage laws.
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BINGO!!!!!!!! You have found him/them!! Or at least I think you have.
I can't thank you enough. My father went through his whole life not knowing any of this and I've been searching for about 40 years or more.
I had taken a break to make dinner and just got back on. Must have missed a few of your posts. I checked out the family tree of Antoniette's on Ancestry and I know that I match someone's family tree posted on FamilyTree DNA with the names I saw on hers, as I did FamilyTreeDNA testing as I couldn't seem to get anywhere and knew so little. I have to print everything out and make sense of this. My father had two pictures, very grainy, of his father. I can't wait to get on to see if that's him! Everyone always says I look Italian, even when I went to Italy.
I wanted to say a huge THANK YOU to everyone here who has jumped in to help me. I can't thank you enough.
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Wow - that's great news that the names fit with your DNA matches :). How exciting!
If this is the right track there should be plenty of relatives out there - Antonietta seems to have had children with both her Australian husbands, as well as her English one.
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I have DNA matches with people in Australia and couldn't figure out why. I think this explains it. One particular one is 2nd to 4th cousin. I am off to find out some of my DNA matches using some of these surnames.
You are the BEST! Thank you.
If I need some guidance again, I'll be sure to check back. I have lots of follow up to do.
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Do update the thread and let us know how you get on. The birth reg for William Henry Welsh is Sep qtr 1888 Chorlton (see reply 13).
Incidentally his father appears in many of the records as Edward (W.), but in fact was baptised as Edmund William Welsh in Eccles in 1852. Parents were William Henry :) and Nancy.
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Welsh family here in Garston ,Liverpool - ask your dad was there any of his relatives in Garston ? - all in there 70's now but the 4 siblings are all healthy and I see them regularly :)
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Possibly of interest?
Merchant Seaman Identity Certificate no 223053 (date unclear - could be 1920)
William Henry Welsh, purser.
Born 24 May 1887 Manchester.
British national, British father.
Just out of interest.
His WW1 Medal Card
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7957449
The ship he served on in June 1920 was the Liverpool registered vessel ABINSI official number 137388. Her 1920 logbooks and crew agreements are available from here.
https://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=137388
Her crew agreement should tell you amongest other things, his last address, nok, and importantly his previous ship.
In this way, backtracking via crew agreements you can find out his entire MN career if you so wish. Be aware that most WW1 crew agreements are stored in the British Archive. Search via the ships official number.
Forget the ID certificate number. It's unimportant. The number to look for is his Dis A number 744110.
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Welsh family here in Garston ,Liverpool - ask your dad was there any of his relatives in Garston ? - all in there 70's now but the 4 siblings are all healthy and I see them regularly :)
Garstonite....are you related to the Welsh family descended from Cherubina Antonietta Maria Del Lungo and Edmund/Edward Welsh? My father was 82 when he passed away in 1998. Can you either post or PM me names or a family tree? I know nothing about the family and would love to!
Thank you for posting.
Cheryl
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Seaweed......Thank you for the heads up about William's medal. I actually just found that a few days ago as I decided to get a one month's subscription to FindMyPast.com and it was on there. It was not on Ancestry.
Thank you for the details about how to look for more information, I would not have known that. I did print out the Merchant Seaman Identity card with his picture on it. He gives his birth date as May 24, 1887 on that. The birth record that we've identified for him is for William Henry Welsh, born Chorlton in 1888. I surmise that maybe he needed to fudge his DOB to get into the Merchant Marine. Not sure why he would change the month and year. It does indicate that his mother's maiden name is Del Lungs (s/b Lungo), so that would be correct for him.
I will be sending for his birth record. I did find what I believe is his baptismal in the Church of England in Toxteth at St. Thomas, and shows an April 23, 1888 birth date but has his parents as William and Mary, so I'm not sure that's him.
Thank you for your help!
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Welsh family here in Garston ,Liverpool - ask your dad was there any of his relatives in Garston ? - all in there 70's now but the 4 siblings are all healthy and I see them regularly :)
Garstonite....are you related to the Welsh family descended from Cherubina Antonietta Maria Del Lungo and Edmund/Edward Welsh? My father was 82 when he passed away in 1998. Can you either post or PM me names or a family tree? I know nothing about the family and would love to!
Thank you for posting.
Cheryl
Hiya Cheryl - no I am not in any way related to the Welsh family - but there is a family of Welsh here in Garston and I see them all the time - I know there mother who would have been around 100 now was named Flo - so I will check who she married when I see one of the family .
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Garstonite....Florence Hilda Welsh was born 1896. If she had children, she would no longer be going by her maiden name. So, I don't know if they are related? But I would certainly like to find out.
I have also determined that the birth record for William Henry Welsh with the birth mother: Del Lungo is the one born in Chorleton, not Toxteth (that I mentioned earlier with parents William and Mary).
On a passenger list from the SS Shonga sailing on July 27, 1918 William H. Welsh states that his date of birth is May 24, 1884 in Manchester, England. Nationality: English, Nationality of father: English. Last lived at 5 Fatherly St., Liverpool. I believe that birth year to be incorrect, as he states it as 1887 on his ID card. I have sent for this birth certificate from GRO.
Thanks to all for keeping up with this! It is a work in progress :)
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Update....I received the birth record for William H. Welsh from the GRO. He was born May 24, 1888. Parents were as listed here. He was born in Chorlton, Manchester, England. Correction to where he last lived, that should have been 5 Hatherly St, Liverpool (not Fatherly St. as was done by auto-correct).
Garstonite...wondering if the Welsh family that you know are related to Dr. William H. Welsh born in the very early 1800's in this same area. I believe that there is a son or grandson of his that also became a doctor.
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Update.....In the time that has passed since I first posted and recieved from all of you the information that has ultimately filled in the missing holes of our family history, I have been in touch with cousins in both England and Australia. If not for the replies recieved here I would still be in the dark. So again I want to thank everyone here who so graciously jumped in to help me!