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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: LizzieW on Friday 10 March 17 11:37 GMT (UK)
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My husband's 3 x g.grandfather Richard Whittaker married Susanna Moss at St Mary's Church, Stockport on 28 June 1795 by banns. There was one witness named a James Clarkson who, I imagine, was the parish clerk as he is the witness for other marriages on the same page of the parish register. Richard was shown of this parish, a hatter and Susanna was a spinster also shown of this parish - at least I think that's what it says, (see below).
The question is where on earth did Richard and Susanna come from? We can't find any baptisms for either of them, although a distant ancestor in USA seems to think that Richard had two brothers called John born around 1756 and Abraham born around 1761 who died about 1833. From the age of Richard at the time of his death in 1836, we think he was born about 1769/70 and Susanna probably about 1776. Unfortunately Susanna died in 1842 so neither of them were on the 1851 census which might have given us a clue as to their origins.
One of Richard's grandsons, (my husband's g.grandfather) married someone from Warwickshire whose ancestors were all from Warwickshire so I guess it's possible that the Whittakers came from Warwickshire originally.
Has anyone any ideas?
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Where does the distant relation in the US get the info from about the brothers? What is their evidence that these were Richards brothers? Who were the parents of those two boys and where were they christened? Have they found a chr for Richard in the same area with the same parents around the right year for him?
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Interestingly (and it could just be a coincidence) on FindMyPast there is a marriage bond dated 19 January 1793 stating that a John Alsop of Manchester in the County of Lancaster and the Diocese of Chester, a gentleman aged 21 will marry a Susanna Moss of the parish of Manchester aforesaid aged 17 a spinster and a minor and that John Alsop paid for a licence for marriage in the collegiate parish church (which was Manchester Cathedral) and that Susanna Moss had for the previous 4 weeks the same abode as John Alsop. However, this document was never signed. I've looked at others either side of this one and they are all signed and dated by the relevant man.
If Susanna Moss was aged 17 in January 1793 that ties in with the approx date of birth we have for her of 1776. Is it possible that Susanna was going to marry a John Alsop and then fled to Cheshire with Richard Whittaker? There is a baptism of a Susanna Moss in Manchester on 23 Jan 1774 (so not 1776) parents John and Mary, but although my husband's Susanna had 8 children, none of them was called either John or Mary.
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I have no idea where the USA relative gets the info from, although they have got a marriage for one of Richard's apparent brothers in 1786 in Glossop, Derbyshire but no other info, so it might just be the American trend/hope of trawling through records and finding a name that fits :o I have got reams of emails from the US on this subject which I can go through again, but I have never found anything that makes me think they are correct.
There are no parents for these so called brothers, no baptisms, just guesses for dates of birth. We have the approx date of birth of Richard from his will and his age given at burial.
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Hiya Lizzie - is that your tree on Geneanet ??
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2 people on www.geneanet.org with Richard and Susanna Moss marriage 1795
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Just to give you some more info, of Richard and Susanna's children, one was also called Richard born 1812 and he was my husband's ancester.
Ok, I then found a marriage in 1855 of a Susannah Moss Whittaker, it turns out the marriage (in 1855) was conducted at Coppenhall Parish Church, which is near to Nantwich, Cheshire and interestingly, the name of Susannah Moss Whittaker’s father was Ralph, which was the name of 2 of Richard's (born 1812) children. Is there a distant connection there?
I've found some info in my notes.
"Another ancestor has been doing lots of searching at the Stockport Archives and found more children for Richard and Susannah. What is interesting and probably points to Susannah Moss being the one baptised at Manchester Cathedral in 1774, parents John and Mary, is that the eldest two children of Richard and Susannah that she has found are called John and Mary! She's searched through the Stockport Sunday School records and found a William Whittaker, father Richard, who was 13 at the time he started at the Sunday School on 20 November 1814. So it seems that William is another son of Richard and Susannah. Which makes 11 children for them, John 1796, Mary 1798, William 1801, Elizabeth 1803, Sarah 1805-1816, Jane 1807, James 1810-1811 (living at Green Lane, Romiley when he died*), Richard 1812-1880 (my husband's ancestor) Hannah 1814, Alice 1818 and James 1820".
Green Lane, Romiley is interesting because that is where Susanna was living on the 1841 census and a William Whittaker born about 1801 was living next door to her, married with a bunch of children with names very similar to the names of Richard and Susanna's children. That family and Susanna all have N next to their name to the question whether born in the county.
So if we think Susanna Moss baptised in 1774 is correct, I wonder if the marriage banns in 1793 also related to her? However, we are no nearer to finding Richard Whittaker's origins.
garstonite - no that's not my tree, I don't have a public tree. I can't actually see the trees on that link without joining.
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Unfortunately, Richard Whittaker died in 1836 so no census results to give us a clue as to his origins, likewise Susanna really as she died in 1842, although from the 1841 census we know she wasn't born in Cheshire.
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They did marry
Marriage: 23 Jan 1793 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
John Alsop, Gentleman - this Parish & Town of Manr.
Susanna Moss - minor, Spinster, Manr.
Witness: Thomas Moss; O. Barlow; John Harrison
Married by Licence by: John Griffith
Register: Marriages 1793, Page 300, Entry 115
Source: LDS Film No 2356675
they have a daughter b 1802
so that is not your Susanna
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Thank you for that, at least we can take her out of the picture. But we still go to the 1841 census which shows she wasn't born in Cheshire, so the 1774 baptism in Lancashire is looking promising.
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did Susanna die in Hayfield mar qtr 1842 - Derbyshire
where did Richard die ??
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Yes, I think it was Sarah who died in 1842, 19 Feb 1842 to be precise at Little Moor, Glossop (Hayfield registration district). On the death cert she is shown as a housekeeper and the informant was a Thomas Hayes in attendance - I think he was her employer. The cause of death was apopleptic fit. However, the certificate doesn't mention whether she was a widow or not.
In this one respect, Richard is clearer. He died on 27 February 1836 and buried on 29 February 1836 at Hatherlow Congregational Chapel, Hatherlow. We assumed that this is what was known as Chadkirk Chapel, near to Romiley. We have visited this chapel but, unfortunately, no grave could be found. Hatherlow comes under Romiley which ties in with where Susanna was in 1841. When Richard and Susanna married, marriages were not permitted at Hatherlow, which might be why they married in Stockport. There is now a Hatherlow Church (United Reformed) which is in Romiley, we've also looked all through the graves there because, although the present church was opened as Hatherlow Congregational Church in 1845, the burial ground surrounding it goes back to 1793.
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Hi Lizzie,
Richard left a will - it won't help you with origins but does back up your other information about Green Lane.
You can download it from Find my Past...
Jean
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Hi Jean. Yes, I should have said I have the will.
Lizzie
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Lizzie, did you get Susanna's death certificate from the GRO or the Derbyshire Records Office? I wonder if the local record would have any additional information.
I also wonder if that was Richard's Susannah; why would she not be living with one of her eleven children, rather than working as a housekeeper?
Is there any way to find out what became of the cottage on Green Lane that was willed to her? She was living there in 1841 with her youngest, James, who did not marry until 1847, in Staffordshire.
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I'd put this on the backburner as I wasn't getting any further with the search.
I got the death cert from GRO, I have been in touch with Derbyshire Records Office in Glossop but I think that was only to see where someone who died in Little Moor would have been buried.
I can't answer your question about why she would have been a housekeeper rather than living with one of her children. Perhaps she needed to work.
I've not done much Family History recently, so I'll have a look at this again. Thank you for your interest? Are you an ancestor of the Whittakers as this is the first post you've made?
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OK, I got out Richard's will it states:
"I give and bequeath to Susannah my Dearly Beloved Wife All that my Cottage or Dwelling House with all and every of its appartenances situate standing lhying or being in a certain part of Romily aforesaid called Green Lane and now in the Holding or occupation of myself. Also I Give and Bequeath to Susannah my Beloved Wife All and Singular my Household Goods and furniture, Plate Linen China Beds and Bedding working Tools and all other my Goods and Chattles Estate and Effects both real and personal and of what nature or kind soever or wherever to Hold to her the said Susannah my Beloved Wife her executors administrators and Aligns With this Special Trust and Confidence Nevertheless that she my Beloved Wife and also Trustee do and shall as soon as convenient after my decease cause a Sale or Sales of my Dwelling House by Auction or Private Contract at her discretion and Also to sell All or any part of my Household Goods or so much thereof as may be needful to make up the deficiency (if any) of the money arising from the sale of my Dwelling House so as to enable her to pay off all my Just Debts and demands etc. etc. etc.
So it seems, Susannah wouldn't have had the Green Lane cottage to live in but had to sell it and anything else to pay Richard's debts. The will goes on to say that any surplus she can keep for her sole use! I assume from the Will that Richard had sizeable debts and the only way to pay them off was for Susannah to sell everything.
Perhaps the only way to survive was to take a post as a Housekeeper.
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Family_Past - I see that James and his wife Elizabeth only had one son, Richard, and then Elizabeth died the following year. I guess you know that James re-married to another Elizabeth and moved to Yorkshire.
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I am a descendant of Richard and Susanna's son William. You know, the American. Just recently I was finally able to locate the missing baptism records for their three oldest children that confirms my long-standing theory that William was indeed their son. With that confirmed, I am interested, as you are, in determining the origins of Richard and Susanna. (I tried to reach you privately but your old email addresses were no longer valid.)
Thank you for looking into Richard's will exposing the sad fact that Susanna was likely left with next to nothing. I would like to feel more confident that the Susanna who died in Little Moor was our Susanna and was thinking that the Derbyshire record might have a tidbit that would boost that confidence, pull it into question, or give us some bit of further information to trace her origins.
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Family_Past - I see that James and his wife Elizabeth only had one son, Richard, and then Elizabeth died the following year. I guess you know that James re-married to another Elizabeth and moved to Yorkshire.
I’ve been following this thread and wondered where James Whittaker moved to in Yorkshire ?
Thanks
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Hi Family_Past - I've got your PM so will send you my new email address.
MEW53 - first of all James married in 1847 in Staffordshire, his wife died after a couple of years. In 1851 he re-married also in Staffordshire but by 1861 he was living in Wombwell, Yorkshire with his 2nd wife and his son from his first marriage. By 1871 the family was back in Staffordshire in Ardsley. I've not researched them after that, as James is only my husband's 2 x g.g.uncle.
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LizzieW,
Thanks for the prompt reply feel free to PM me.
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LizzieW,
Thanks for the prompt reply feel free to PM me.
Are you a descendant of the Whittakers? We normally discuss research on here so that other Rootschatters can help if necessary. Often someone not connected to the family can find something that we've overlooked. The reason Family_Past sent me a PM is that we were in contact (not on Rootschat) many years ago, for quite some time and then lost touch, so she was able to PM me to find out my new email address.
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My husband’s side of the family are Whittaker’s and came from Yorkshire.
I have done lots of research on this site but mainly on my parents’ side
I spotted the thread and got interested in case there was anything significant as I haven’t done much research on them.
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MEW53 - I've sent you a PM.