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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: kjmck on Sunday 12 March 17 16:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone
I'm looking for some help locating the marriage for my great great grandmother Rose Guarnera/Guanari. She was born c.1874 in Italy, and died 26 April 1934 in Warrington. She was married first, to Jezrial Criscoli, and after he died in 1909 she married Fortunato/Ferdinand(o) Diamanti who was born c.1874 in Paris. It is the Diamanti-Guarnera marriage I am looking to find.
If anyone thinks they can help i would very much appreciate it.
Keelan
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See also
Hi Everyone,
I'm looking for advice about how i would go about searching for my great great grandparents, who emigrated to the UK separately before meeting, and marrying.
My 2x great grandfather was Fortunato/Ferdinand(o)/Fortimato Diamanti and according to Ancestry, he was born c.1874 in Paris, France. He died 18 September 1941 in Warrington, Cheshire. His wife, and my 2x great grandmother was Rose Guarnera/Guanari, who was born c.1874 in Italy, and died 26 April 1934 in Warrington, Cheshire. Prior to marrying Diamanti, Rose was married to a Jezrial Criscoli, but I don't know whether she married in the UK or Italy as I have been unable to find either of Rose's marriages in the UK.
If anyone would be able to point me in the direction of how i might go about finding when/how Rose/Fortunato/Jezrial came to the UK, or maybe even how to find them in records from France/Italy I would very much appreciate it.
Many thanks,
Keelan
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I am not allowed to give details from the 1911 census but it is possible that she married abroad. Children are not all born in England. How many years does she state she has been married
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1891 census - 71 Henry Street, Manchester
Jesna Christalia 27 Organ Grinder born Italy
Rosina Christalia 19 bn Manchester
Maria Carty Servant 19 bn Manchester
Joseph Christalia Son 2 bn Manchester
Angelo Christalia Dtr 4 weeks bn Manchester
Births June qtr 1891
Crescuolo Angelo Manchester 8d 231
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1901 62 Gun Street, Manchester
Jezriel Criscoli Married 36 Organ Grinder bn Italy
Joseph Criscoli 13
Angelo Criscoli Son 11
Mary Criscoli 9
Lawrence Criscoli 6 Children all born Manchester
Just posted those census so we can see who the family were, where they were born etc
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Births Jun 1889
Crescol Joseph Antonio mmn GUANARI
Manchester 8d 250
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FreeBMD has a marriage:
Manchester, Dec qtr 1887 vol 8d p449 - Christo JASOWAY, Rosina GUANUNARI
The spelling is way off - but it must be them.
Philip
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Just beat me to it Philip ;D
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I am not allowed to give details from the 1911 census but it is possible that she married abroad. Children are not all born in England. How many years does she state she has been married
Is the husband in 1911 Cresco or Diamanti? - this would narrow down the search for Rosina's second marriage.
Philip
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She was married first, to Jezrial Criscoli, and after he died in 1909
That date does not tie in with the number of years married to husband no 2
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She was married first, to Jezrial Criscoli, and after he died in 1909
That date does not tie in with the number of years married to husband no 2
Hmmmm. I should have re-read the whole thread before asking the question!
Should I assume (I don't have a sub to view 1911) that Rosina's marriage on the 1911 census was longer than 2 years, and that there is/are Diamanti child/children born abroad?
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Philip, I have just PM'd you
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Philip, I have just PM'd you
Many thanks for the pm - it clarifies matters considerably.
I have just found on FreeBMD a death:
Prestwich Mar qtr 1904 vol 8d p292 - Jessaway CRISCOLA aged 38.
So the date proposed for his death as 1909 would be incorrect. 1904 would fit a second marriage.
I wonder if the children born abroad would have been from a first marriage of Fernando DIAMANTI (with whatever spelling!) in continental Europe.
Assuming there was a second marriage, it could have been in Lancashire or abroad, between 1904 and c1908.
Philip
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Hi All! Thank you for your replies. Looking at it now I am a little confused as to why I put Jezrial's death as 1909. In 1911 the family are living in Warrington, Fortunato is transcribed as Ferdinand and Rose as Rosey. There seems to have been a lot of confusion regarding the years they were married and the number of children they had, but they settled on 3 years married.
I've also just seen that Rose's birth place is given as Manchester yet I can't find any record of that either. ??? ???
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Born Manchester ;D
Births Jun 1872
Rosina Guarnieri
Manchester 8d 20
Mothers maiden name SMITH ;D
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Tying in with rosie99's find - on the 1881 census there is:
RG11, 3978-75, 22
Chapel Court, Manchester
John GUINARI, head, 49, street musician, born Italy
Ellen, wife, 36, born London
Rosina, daughter, 9, born Manchester
Antonio, son, 7, born Manchester
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Thanks so much for the breakthrough! Any ideas how I might search for the beginnings of Fortunato Diamanti? Whatever his name originally was
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Just curious Rosie99 how you find the mother's maiden name for birth records prior to 1911?
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Ah, the joys of teamwork and lateral thinking and the benefits of fuzzy-search!
Apart from not yet finding a second marriage for Rosa/Rosina, Rootschatters have come up with her birth, parents, a sibling and first marriage. I love this website :)
Philip
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It's invaluable! Philip what website do you use to search BMD records, as you found records that I have struggled with due to name variations?
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Thanks so much for the breakthrough! Any ideas how I might search for the beginnings of Fortunato Diamanti? Whatever his name originally was
In your firstpost you wrote that he was born c1874 in Paris. Could you tell us where this information is from?
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Just curious Rosie99 how you find the mother's maiden name for birth records prior to 1911?
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
You just need to register ;D
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It's invaluable! Philip what website do you use to search BMD records, as you found records that I have struggled with due to name variations?
Freebmd I expect :)
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
I have just found on FreeBMD a death:
Prestwich Mar qtr 1904 vol 8d p292 - Jessaway CRISCOLA aged 38.
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In your firstpost you wrote that he was born c1874 in Paris. Could you tell us where this information is from?
In the 1911 census under his birthplace it says 'born in Paris' and under Nationality 'French'
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It's invaluable! Philip what website do you use to search BMD records, as you found records that I have struggled with due to name variations?
I start with FreeBMD, simply because I am more used to it than GRO. For this search I made the assumption that events were in Lancashire, then I used just a fuzzy search for a forename (Rosa, Rosina) or surname (Guaneri, Guarni, Crisco, Criscoli etc) with a spread of a few years, copied and pasted the whole lot into Excel, then sorted the results by surname (or forename) and scrolled through until I found a possibility. I find this a lot easier than scrolling through FreeBMD which sorts by quarter then surname - it's quicker and I'm less likely to miss an entry.
Philip
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Thanks so much for the breakthrough! Any ideas how I might search for the beginnings of Fortunato Diamanti? Whatever his name originally was
I don't know much about French records, but this site might give some pointers:
https://familysearch.org/blog/en/searching-french-family-history-records/
Alternatively, posting a query on the Rootschat Europe board could produce results:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/europe/
Philip
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Ah, the joys of teamwork and lateral thinking and the benefits of fuzzy-search!
Apart from not yet finding a second marriage for Rosa/Rosina, Rootschatters have come up with her birth, parents, a sibling and first marriage. I love this website :)
Philip
Me too ;D
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I start with FreeBMD, simply because I am more used to it than GRO. For this search I made the assumption that events were in Lancashire, then I used just a fuzzy search for a forename (Rosa, Rosina) or surname (Guaneri, Guarni, Crisco, Criscoli etc) with a spread of a few years, copied and pasted the whole lot into Excel, then sorted the results by surname (or forename) and scrolled through until I found a possibility. I find this a lot easier than scrolling through FreeBMD which sorts by quarter then surname - it's quicker and I'm less likely to miss an entry.
Philip
Did you know that there is a "Download" button on FreeBMD?! ;D
It will download your search results into a text file (.txt).
Not difficult to paste this into Excel :D
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Keelan, I can't reply to your pm but I am happy to share what I have tho since my divorce I have passed on most of my chriscoli stuff. They haven't had anything to do with my children so it's not wanted by them.
My inlaws still live on school brow where rose lived
I know a fair bit of her character as well as dates and I don't think you will find a marriage record!
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Do you use social media?
I do
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Keelan, I can't reply to your pm . . . . .
You need to have made 3 posts (which you now have!) in order to get the PM system to open up to you.
It's to stop casual visitors stealing identities, posting spam, etc.
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Rosina was born 1872 in Manchester, to an Italian family
She married at 16, I have a copy of the cert
She had it tough, her husband Gesuele, which is Gesuele, Jesus, was prosecuted by the NSpCC for abuse and neglect of his older sons
He was living in Rhyl at the time, with another woman while rose was living with other kids and another man
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Other Guarneri s were in Yorkshire, Anthony and Angelo s families
I found some on social media. Seems to be just two Guarneri/ Guinari families in England
I couldn't find them on one of the census records and rumour has it that they were in Dublin for a while so it could have been then
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Rose had a son Vincent who was rather deformed
I can't find a birth record or baptism for him but on 1911 census it says he was born in Italy
Did they go back?
Vincent lived on school brow, owned the house his mother lived in and the one next door
Chriscoli's still there
Angie s family lived across the road, wife Ethel still having children when her grandchildren were being born
Lots of fighting and arguing, a very aggressive family
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Vincent had a daughter Rita who is now 85
Her real name is Laura Rose after both grandmothers but rose had said it should be rose Laura as they were living under her roof
Vincent's wife jessie(Gesanella Ballarini) said that the child wouldn't be called after either and from then on would be known as Rita
In this way, Jessie was able to call the child after her own mum in a different way cos even tho her name was Laura her name was Lauretta pronounced lau rita
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One of roses daughters with Ferdinand/ Fortunato Diamanti. Was Teresa, she had a child Gloria, when single,
She married someone else who wouldn't take the child and as she was only six months younger than Rita, Jessie brought them up together
All the family were very small, I have a couple of photos of Lawrence, Vincent, Philly, chrissy
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Sorry, but I am just writing this as I think of things and even tho I don't have much on the Diamanti side I do on roses side
Another story I heard. From Sheffield? Was that the Guinaris as they became known, were originally from s violin making family in Cremona
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Roses brother lived in morecambe and when his wife died, his niece Mary went to take care of him and the house
They made ice cream and sold it from the house
Both are buried with rise
The spelling on the grave is Chriscole and one branch of the family in Wigan also spell it that way
I think it is because I in Italian is pronounced ee
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Another bit of info I would love to verify is that Anthony guinari in morecambe was a nude male artists model!