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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: DerekD44 on Tuesday 14 March 17 20:48 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,I have registered on this group/site today as I am trying to locate my grandmother's birth certificate.
I have already found her two wedding certificates and her death certificate but,so far I am unable to find her birth certificate.
Her name is Alice Amelia Davids,Williams nee Edwards.
Born in 1905 but,in the 1939 Census her birth year is 1906 !
She was married in Newport,Wales in 1934 to Jonathan Williams.
Sadly he passed away in 1946.My grandmother remarried in 1967 to John Smith Davids in Cardiff.Wales.
Looking forward to any help.
Derek
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Hi Derek,
Welcome to Rootschat ;)
Annie
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Hi Derek & Welcome to Rootschat.
Do you know the names of Alice's parents, and have you found her on the 1911 census? This will help us to have a starting point for trying to locate her birth.
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Hi
WELCOME to Rootschat.
When did she pass on?
Ray
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Hi Derek,
Welcome to RootsChat.
We've moved your topic here to the Family History Beginners Board for you. :) It was put on another board on here, but not to worry.
I hope you get lots of helpful replies. Once you get your way around RootsChat you can then explore and post on the other boards too, on different counties and countries (including Wales too :) ).
All the very best - and good luck.
Trystan
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The only birth around 1905 for an Alice Amelia Edwards was in Bath in 1903 (March quarter), mother's maiden name was Mason.
Added, possible marriage for the birth.... Alice Mason to Henry James Edwards, Bath, Dec quarter 1901.
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An Ancestry tree has her birth as 19/03/1905 in Bristol but doesn't have a link to the actual birth.
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That leads to this birth? Either they have that wrong or perhaps it has been transcribed incorrectly.
Births Jun 1905
Edmonds Alice Amelia
Bristol 6a 15
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For the notes pile
Birth Sep 1906 Wrexham 11b 290 Alice Selina Edwards [ mmn RANDLES ]
Death Dec 1970 Cardiff 8b 1263 Alice Sali Davids [ 19Mr1905 ]
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I'm not sure about the accuracy of that Ancestry tree (what a surprise ;D ) as they have a link to an Alice Amelia Edwards in the Gloucester Electoral registers for 1920. As she'd only be 15 then it can't possibly be the right one!
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Welcome to rootschat :)
Certificates you will not 'find' online as they are civil records which you need to purchase, you will find indexes and using those details you can buy one.
I can see several Alice's, several Amelia's but no Alice Amelia's registered 1905/1906 however I suggest you check yourself http://www.freebmd.org.uk if you know when her birthday was then registrations took place 4 times a yr, so if she was born in the 1st 3 months of the yr it could be in that quarter or the 2nd quarter.
1939 census? I assume you mean the 1939 Register as the last census you can see is 1911, which you should find her on hopefully along with her parents/siblings
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The one born in Bath in 1903 was in Birkenhead Chesire in 1
The only birth around 1905 for an Alice Amelia Edwards was in Bath in 1903 (March quarter), mother's maiden name was Mason.
Added, possible marriage for the birth.... Alice Mason to Henry James Edwards, Bath, Dec quarter 1901.
This family was in Birkenhead, Cheshire in 1911, brother Henry Thomas born in 1906.
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No Alice Amelia Edwards on Freebmd between 1904 - 1907.
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Alice Williams with Jonathan Williams in Cardiff in 1939, with DOB shown as 1906
Moderator comment: 1939 register details removed as this dataset is exclusive to FindMyPast by subscription, you may only post information from a free search
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How about this - perhaps she changed her name around and used a middle name as her first name, not unusual, my grandmother did that.
Births Jun 1905
Edwards Amelia
Neath 11a 1028
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Alice Williams with Jonathan Williams in Cardiff in 1939, with DOB shown as 1906
Moderator comment: 1939 register details removed as this dataset is exclusive to FindMyPast by subscription, you may only post information from a free search
....which ties in with the Alice Sali Davids death (19 Mar 1905) found by [Ray] earlier.
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Possible death -
Alice Sali Davids
Birth Date - 19 Mar 1905
Date of Registration - Dec 1970
Registration district - Cardiff
Inferred County - Glamorganshire
Vol 8b Page 1263
As Groom has already said perhaps Alice added the name Amelia and then the name Sali ???
JJ
Added - Have just noticed death already posted !
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Where has the Amelia come from, is that the marriage certificates? We really need her father's name from the marriage certificates as that will help us to find her parents' marriage and her birth from the GRO records.
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DerekD44 has been watching but not replying.
Come on Derek, tell us what you really have?
We are just inventing things until you answer the questions.
Ray
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Births Jun 1905
Edwards Amelia
Neath 11a 1028
This Amelia may have married Clifford Baitup. Her birth date - 22 April 1905.
As Ray has already said we need some input from Derek before we look any further.
JJ
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She was Alice A on both her marriages.....
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I agree, we're not coming up with anything at the moment. The marriage certificate is going to be the key.
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"She was Alice A on both her marriages....." is frankly not very helpful.
We not only do not know what Derek is talking about
nor
about that post.
How about quoting refs?
Saves us all duplicating effort ( and even then making mistakes )
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"She was Alice A on both her marriages....." is frankly not very helpful.
We not only do not know what Derek is talking about
nor
about that post.
How about quoting refs?
Saves us all duplicating effort ( and even then making mistakes )
Both her marriages were quoted by Derek in the original post. I was simply pointing out that from FreeBMD she is listed as Amelia A Edwards on her marriage to Jonathan Williams in 1934 and as Amelia A Williams when she married John Davids in 1960.
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There were no refs qualifying previous research in Derekd44's first/only posts.
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There was also a discussion on this on the Ancestry boards in 2015 - no finished outcome - but an interesting suggestion that if she was actually Alice Amelia Edmonds, born Bristol, registered in June quarter 1905 that there was a marriage for Alice Amelia Edmonds in Cardiff (Sep quarter 1932) to a Mohamet Sali :-\
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I wonder if Derek has actually seen that 1934 certificate and if she is a spinster on that? She was 29 then which was quite old for a first marriage.
There was also a discussion on this on the Ancestry boards in 2015 - no finished outcome - but an interesting suggestion that if she was actually Alice Amelia Edmonds, born Bristol, registered in June quarter 1905 that there was a marriage for Alice Amelia Edmonds in Cardiff (Sep quarter 1932) to a Mohamet Sali :-\
Interesting as that would make the birth I found correct. Not likely though to have married in Sept 1932 and again in 1934 unless he died, in which case she should have remarried as Sali.
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Until you get refs, and prove, wasting time / effort / x ?
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Groom
I actually like that, BUT, no confirmation from OP('s)
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Interesting as that would make the birth I found correct.
Indeed; apologies Groom, I meant to reference that :)
Re the possible 1932 and 1934 marriages, what would happen if the 1932 one was annulled? Would she revert to her maiden name (if it was her first marriage)?
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Re the possible 1932 and 1934 marriages, what would happen if the 1932 one was annulled? Would she revert to her maiden name (if it was her first marriage)?
I would think she could as if a marriage is annulled isn't that the same as never having been married? Only one way to tell - get the 1934 certificate if David hasn't done so already and then perhaps get the 1932 one and compare them.
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OOps I see that I have missed a whole page of replies! So her death has already been found!
Is this her death?
Name: Alice Sali Davids
Birth Date: 19 Mar 1905
Date of Registration: Dec 1970
Age at Death: 65
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 1263
So that we can find her on the 1911 census,who does she say that her father is (and what job did he do) on both her marriage certs?
Carol
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Looking at what is probably David's tree on Ancestry parents are Richard Albert Edwards (lorry driver) and Edith. He also has her as Alice Sali Davids, so we need him to come back and tell us what he already knows, we may just be repeating stuff. Hopefully he has had an email telling him that he has replies.
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Right.......Carol8353........yes this record is correct!!!
Her father's name is Richard Albert Edwards and,he was a Lorry driver.
On the 1934 wedding certificate he was alive but,on the other one ( 1967 ) he was deceased.
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Hi Derek, what else do you know about the family?
Alice's mother's name, parents ages, where they were born, any siblings, where they were living in 1901/1911 etc.
Was she definitely Alice Amelia? Where does the Sali come from?
Sorry for all the questions but she is proving difficult to pin down. We would love to help, but need more info.....
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Hi Carol,there's not a lot to go on regarding my Nans parents,other than their name.....Richard and Edith.A step cousin of mine did mention that my Nan had a brother but,she wasn't sure about his name.So I looked at the 1939 register and found a Francis Edwards in the same house in Bristol.
So I decided to look and see if he had married,had children etc.
There is info on that side but,I didn't want to go further until I found a connection and whether Richard Albert Edwards was their father.
Her name is Alice Amelia and sadly I don't know where "Sali " came from???
I'm going to contact my cousin again and see if she knows where it came from !!
Oh,and by the way I don't mind all the questions also,should I take longer getting back to you it's because I'll be at work ( 12pm-8pm )
So I haven't ignored you....ha,ha,ha
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I'm a little put out that you have only acknowledged Carol's reply when several of us spent hours looking up information for you, including how we think the name Sali was obtained? Can you see those replies?
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I'm a little put out that you have only acknowledged Carol's reply when several of us spent hours looking up information for you, including how we think the name Sali was obtained? Can you see those replies?
I found that odd too Groom, although I clicked on this thread yesterday and only got page one,which of course didn't show a whole page of replies........gremlins?
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Many apologies to you all...I'm just trying to get my head around things,it's a bit daunting trying to get back to everyone
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I'm wondering whether the Alice Amelia Edmonds born 1905 Bristol and baptised 21st July is a red herring. She is the daughter of Albert and Harriet Edmonds and not Richard and Edith.
It is possible that the same Alice Amelia Edmonds was a teacher in 1932 at Cadoxton Infants school, in Barry South Wales, which would tie up with a marriage to Mohamet Sali in 1932.
The puzzle is that the word Sali is written against Alice Amelia Williams in 1939, suggesting that was an alternative name.
Who were the witnesses on the 1934 marriage certificate, Derek? Were there any family members?
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Right.......Carol8353........yes this record is correct!!!
Her father's name is Richard Albert Edwards and,he was a Lorry driver.
On the 1934 wedding certificate he was alive but,on the other one ( 1967 ) he was deceased.
The marriage of Alice A Williams to Mr Davids was in the Sept 1/4 of 1960 in Cardiff.
Not 1967 as you state above. Could that be the date of his death though?
Name: John S Davids
Birth Date: abt 1899
Date of Registration: Dec 1967
Age at Death: 68
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 8b
Page: 208
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Trying to straighten out some of the confusion . . . . .
Reply #21
"She was Alice A on both her marriages....."
Reply #24
"Both her marriages were quoted by Derek in the original post.
I was simply pointing out that from FreeBMD
she is listed as Amelia A Edwards on her marriage to Jonathan Williams in 1934
and as Amelia A Williams when she married John Davids in 1960."
Just goes to prove that refs must be quoted to stop confusion =
Marr 1934 Dec Newport M. 11a 588 Jonathan WILLIAMS / Alice A EDWARDS
Marr 1960 Sep Cardiff 8b 474 John S DAVIDS / Alice A Williams
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Mr Sali shows as "Widowed" in 1939 Cardiff.
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Derek
Who registered her death? ie Who knew about the name SALI?
Any chance of FULL transcripts of both marriage certs?
Especially witnesses / addresses etc.
Ta!
R
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Okay, I'm going to suggest a theory here - quite willing to be shot down though!
She was born Alice Amelia EDMONDs and baptised 21st July 1905 Gloucester, daughter of Albert and Harriet Edmonds. Albert is a labourer
The family can be found in the 1911 census in Bristol.
In 1932 Alice Amelia Edmonds is a teacher in Barry, South Wales.
In Sept quarter of 1932, she marries Mohamet Sali in Cardiff as Edmonds.
At some point between 1932 and 1934 the marriage breaks down, perhaps he went back to sea, as I think there are seaman records for him.
Alice Amelia meets Jonathan Williams and they (according to Derek's tree) have two children. They decide to marry but because she is still married to Sali, she changes her name slightly to EDWARDS and changes her parents' names.
Although she appears as Williams in 1939, the name Sali is written next to this as legally she is still married to him.
Comments?
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Is it just me? Things just don't seem to add up?
The possible brother Francis born 12/5/1890 Bristol was a plain Francis (tree states Francis Ernest) was the son of a Charles Sidney Edwards and wife Mary Ann.
The only Alice Edwards bc.1905 Bristol was the dau. of a Sidney and Annie.
The fact that 'Sali' appears on her death entry lends some credence to the marriage of an Alice Amelia Edmonds to Mohamet Sali 1932 Cardiff. Added to that is this added name on 1939 Register.
As already mentioned, Alice Amelia Edmonds was the daughter of an Albert Edmonds bc.1882 Bristol who married a Harriet Mansfield bc.1881 in 1903 Bristol. It looks like in 1939 Register Albert is listed as Albert R.? (Is this 'R' for Richard I wonder). However, he dies in Dec.1963 Bristol as plain Albert. I don't know if things went wrong for Albert and Harriet after 1913 - a daughter Harriet was born in 1913 but no more after, nor can I find an appropriate death index entry for a Harriet Edmonds.
Since your Alice's death entry is as Alice Sali Davids with a birth date of 19/3/1905 I think I would get the birth certificate of Alice Amelia Edmonds to establish if her birthdate was indeed this date. If so, I think this is your Alice.
Perhaps she and first husband Sali never actually divorced so she passed herself off as single again and changed her name to Edwards. We could hypothesize forever.
I think the birth certificate of Alice Amelia Edmonds has to be a must, to confirm if same birthdate.
Annette
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Looks as if you've come to the same conclusion as I have Annette.
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Me three, for what it's worth 😀
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So as I see it Derek, to be really sure you need to get a couple of certificates:
Alice Amelia Edmond's birth:
Births Jun 1905
Edmonds Alice Amelia
Bristol 6a 15
and her marriage to Sali
Marriages Sep 1932
Edmonds Alice A Mohamet Sali Cardiff
Mohamet Sali Edmonds Cardiff 11a 936
Sali Mohamet Edmonds Cardiff 11a 936
Once you have those it may answer a lot of questions.
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If this is your gran (mum or dad's mum?) Didn't they know her DOB?
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Looking at the 1939 entry I am not convinced that Sali refers to another surname used by Alice, but rather a first name. If you look at entries on the pages round about it is evident that all changes to surnames are done in capital letters while changes to first names are in capital then lower case, as a Sali is. Also her death entry would point to Sali being used as a middle name. It could be a pet version of Alice by which she was more generally known.
Isobel
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I think it is far too much of a coincidence, given all the records we've found that there isn't some connection with Mohamet Sali. It's possible that for some reason she used her first marriage surname as a middle name. I agree, it isn't a change of name on the 1939, but part of her known name.
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I'm a little put out that you have only acknowledged Carol's reply when several of us spent hours looking up information for you, including how we think the name Sali was obtained?
I'd already suggested that to Derek back in 2015. The 1932 Mohamet Sali marriage was not new information found on here. Ditto Edmonds/Edwards
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jpi/
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Thanks for that Jon, so it looks as if Derek already had what we found here. At least, with different people all coming to the same conclusion there must be something in it!
As we've said before Derek, the only way to be sure is to get those certificates, it will be money well spent if you really want to know the truth.
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Hi
"If you look at entries on the pages round about it is evident that all changes to surnames are done in capital letters . . . . ."
I agree that is probably what is supposed to happen.
[ even surnames to the left, forenames to the right ]
However, just one mistake by a clerk means we are dead in the water.
Examples around Sali . . . . .
ref 23 4 Jones (surname)
ref 90 2 SALVADORE (forename)
ref 91 3 Pengelly (surname)
???
What happened to the Amelia part?
My vote? Sali is a (pet/nick)name, only.
The marriage? Coincidence.
Ray
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What happened to the Amelia part?
My vote? Sali is a (pet/nick)name, only.
The marriage? Coincidence.
It wasn't used on the death registration either.
I'm afraid I disagree re the Sali being a nickname, it would more likely to have been spelled Sally. Also, I've never seen nicknames added to the 1939, remember this was also used to inform National Health records later.
However, we can debate this forever, the only way to confirm or dismiss it is for Derek to get the certificates and then come back and let us know.
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Not wishing to cause confusion but.......Sali is a Welsh name for girls.
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Derek, the GRO has just opened its 3rd phase for getting records on line
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=767500.0
If you are quick you can get the Edmonds/Sali marriage for £8 instead of the normal amount.
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Hmmmmm
Death 1974 Jun S.GLAMORGAN 28 2515 Mohamet SALI (about1892)
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The mystery deepens - so he didn't die before a second marriage (if correct) and they wouldn't have been married long enough for a divorce, which leaves annulment or bigamy.
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The 1932 marriage is indexed under both Mohamet and Sali on FreeBMD. An Alice Mohamed death is recorded in Cardiff, june quarter of 1939. There is a Mahomed Sali in Cardiff in 1939 who is listed as a widower.
Isobel
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Possible, but on the marriage and death and what I think is his medal record from WW2 he is definitely Mohamet not Mohamed and with a surname of Sali.
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Transcription of the marriage certificate is in Deidre's post #67
[ Cats and keyboards do not mix ]
Now all we need is for Derek to give us ALL of the detail from the other 2x certs.
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Well done Ray.
So from Derek's earlier post re the marriage to Jonathon Williams
Her father's name is Richard Albert Edwards and,he was a Lorry driver.
On the 1934 wedding certificate he was alive but,on the other one ( 1967 ) he was deceased.
I think we can be 100% sure that Alice Amelia Edmonds became Alice Amelia Edwards. Certainly looks to me as if she married Jonathon Edwards bigamously as I doubt whether she would have got a divorce so quickly. If she had been divorced as well, wouldn't that have shown on her second and third marriage certificate? If the marriage was annulled why would she need to change her name from Edmonds to Edwards?
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Which would seem to make her
1905 June Bristol 6a 15 Alice A Edmonds (mmn Mansfield)
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Parents therefore?
Albert Edmonds / Harriet Mansfield
m 1903 Jun Bristol 6a 76
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From G R O
2 Sept 1932 Cardiff Reg Office
Mohamet Sali, 40y, Bachelor, Seaman Mercantile Marine, 14 Nelson Street, Cardiff,
(X mark)
Father Ali Sali, Seaman Mercantile Marine
AliceAlemia Edmonds, 26y, Spinster, No Occupation, 14 Nelson Street, Cardiff,
(signed)
Father Richard Edmonds, Motor Lorry Driver
Witnesses Lizzie Jones & Gwynneth Jones
Great news Ray :) Looks like it is all coming together.
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Younger siblings?
Dorothy 1910 mmn Mansfield
Albert James 1908 mmn Mansfield
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Which would seem to make her
1905 June Bristol 6a 15 Alice A Edmonds (mmn Mansfield)
Yes, which was the one I gave right at the beginning. However, I wonder if Derek already knew this as it is the one he has on his tree!
I think now though we have proved beyond doubt how she got the Sali part of her name.
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Derek's tree on Ancestry has her parents as Richard A Edwards and Edith A Jones ???
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Derek's tree on Ancestry has her parents as Richard A Edwards and Edith A Jones ???
I think he may need to go back and check the tree. I can't see where Edith Jones came from if he hadn't got the birth certificates of Alice or her brother.
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Hi DerekD44
I think that the Rootschatters on this thread have proven how helpful they can be by going the extra mile and buying, for you, the once suspect marriage certificate.
You only joined Rootschat a week ago (14/3) and you haven't been logged on since 16/3. Does that mean you wish to close your query?
Just change the title on your next post to "Complete" if that is the case.
In order that we can move forward with your query, a little more info is needed.
Please transcribe ALL of the details from the 2x marriage certificates, including witness names, addresses, etc.. It should only take you about 5 minutes.
Regards
Ray
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If Derek missed the email notification for the first post after 16/3/17, then he won't get any more until he comes back to the topic as his notifications are set to "instantly but only for the 1st reply".
Of course he may also be ill or away on holiday.
I'll send him a pm.
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Hi Dawn
Thanks for trying.
As there has been a logged on visit and the thread title is unchanged, I'm happy to assume more is wanted.
Ray
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Hi Dawn
Thanks for trying.
As there has been a logged on visit and the thread title is unchanged, I'm happy to assume more is wanted.
Ray
However it would be nice to have some acknowledgement re the information found.