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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Friday 17 March 17 21:58 GMT (UK)
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Wondering if anyone can help decipher an 1851 census entry in Merthyr Tydfil.
Reference HO107, piece 2459, folio 644, page 44, Brecon Road, Merthyr Tydfil.
I'm trying to work out the Harris family, halfway down the page.
David Harris, head, married, 31, shoemaker, Anglesey (I'm assuming that's what it says)
Ann, wife, married, 40, also Anglesey
Elizabeth 9, born Merthyr
Sarah 7, looks like Amlwch
Ann 4 ?? [my husband's 3rd great grandmother]
David 9 months ??
I can't find a marriage (there are a few), nor the children's births, even using the GRO index (no set of 4 children born to the same mother in Merthyr, and no Sarah in Anglesey - where Amlwch is).
Any suggestions gratefully received.
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I think the children may have Glamorgan, Merthyr dittoed for all 4.
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Thanks Osprey, as I can't find the births in Merthyr I was trying to see if the messy entry said anything else. Wonder where Amlwch came from, as it's far more specific than just Anglesey.
I'll have another check on the births in Merthyr, adding in Harries as an option, and Anne.....
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it could be that the births weren't registered.
Possible from 1841
Twynyrodin, Merthyr Tydfil HO107/1415/12 folio 11 pg 15
Thos Harris 50 sawyer
Hannah 55
David 20 shoe maker
Ann 15
Margret 13
Harriot 11
all not born in county
Hannah could be the visitor to David's family in 1851.
:-\
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Thanks osprey, that looks promising. I've been looking in 1861 but can't find any of them :(
I've just gone through the GRO index again, with variations, and have found births of Elizabeth and Sarah to a Roberts mother (and I have a possible marriage David Harris to Ann Roberts) but no Roberts mmn for an Ann(e) or David, nor any double in case Ann died and David re-married.
Difficult family to find as daughter Ann Harris married John Coombes (many variations) in Merthyr, not yet found in 1871 and Ann died in 1874 aged 26 (also Merthyr).
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Hi Deirdre
there is a marriage listed for Powys (specifically in Vaynor) for 2 November 1841 between David Harries, shoemaker, resident at time of marriage in Heol y Cae; father Thomas Harries, sawyer. Ann Roberts, spinster, same residence as David, father John Roberts (also shoemaker).
Witnesses are John Roberts and Ann Harries
Mar
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Mar, that is brilliant thanks 😀.
Looks like the first two births are right then. Wonder why Ann and David don't appear to have been registered. ???
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Deirdre
In the 1861 census there is (RG09/4052/35/22)
Harys Blawel Houses, 20, Penyrynys, Merthyr
David Harris Head Married Male 42 1819 Shoemaker Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Margaret Harris Wife Married Female 43 1818 Shoemaker Neath, Glamorgan, Wales
David Harris Son Male 10 1851 Scholar Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
John Harris Son Male 8 1853 Scholar Merthyr, Glamorgan, Wales
Mar
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He is also on the 1871 census aged 53, born Caernarthen or Carmarthen (still a shoemaker) with wife Mgt aged 50 born Neath and children Jane (5) and James (3)
RG10/5401/72
Page 16
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Don't know why I couldn't find David in 1861, wasn't looking for him with Ann. Looks like Ann has died then, which explains the non-Roberts births of Ann and David. Rushing out to church now, will be back on this later. Thanks again 😀
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Deirdre
If Ann has died, it must have been between 1851 and 1861 census as still with wife Ann in 1851, so David and Ann should both be Ann's (nee Roberts) children?
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Deirdre
If Ann has died, it must have been between 1851 and 1861 census as still with wife Ann in 1851, so David and Ann should both be Ann's (nee Roberts) children?
Of course :-[
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Bound to be a red herring, but there is this:
HARRIS, ANN GRO Ref.: 1846 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL UNION Volume 26 Page 427
HARRIS, DAVID HARRIS GRO Ref.: 1851 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 26 Page 477
Does "your" David (father) have any sisters? That might have been a bit ... haphazard in life?
Stitch
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Bound to be a red herring, but there is this:
HARRIS, ANN GRO Ref.: 1846 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL UNION Volume 26 Page 427
HARRIS, DAVID HARRIS GRO Ref.: 1851 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 26 Page 477
Does "your" David (father) have any sisters? That might have been a bit ... haphazard in life?
Stitch
Thanks Stitch, he had 3 I know of ... Ann, Margaret and Harriot :)
But my Ann was married in 1866 with David, shoemaker as her father.
I guess it's possible that none of the children's births were registered, and that the Elizabeth and Sarah belonged to other Harris families. Haven't yet found any baptisms to help either. Will look for the later children born to the 2nd marriage, to Margaret.
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1891 census
4 Toop's Court, Taff St, Merthyr Tydfil RG12/4441 folio 43 pg 3
David Harris head widower 77 shoemaker b. Carmarthenshire
Jane dau 24 washerwoman b. Merthyr Tydfil
Janet A grand dau 4 b. Merthyr Tydfil
1881 6 Twynyrodyn RG11/5311 folio 66 pg 1
David Harris head mar 64 shoemaker b. Carmarthen
Margt wife 60 b. Neath
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Thanks osprey :) so your 1841 find was spot on too, giving me David's parents, and Mar's marriage find gave me Ann's father. Great progress thanks to you both.
Possible burial for David's first wife Ann, in Merthyr on 3 June 1851.
I wonder where 'Anglesey' came from?
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possible enumerator error? That page in 1851 was a bit messy.
:-\
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possible enumerator error? That page in 1851 was a bit messy.
:-\
Just a bit! Even so, David was born either in Carmarthen or Merthyr!
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think he gives Carmarthen(shire) more times than Merthyr Tydfil.
:-\
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Building up the picture.. think this is the marriage of another possible sibling of David Harries (1819) shoemaker
On the 1841 census found by osprey, Margret Harries is aged 13
Vaynor parish church has marriage on 5th July 1851 for a Margaret Harries, full age, residence Heol y Cae (same as was on David Harries marriage in 1841); father Thomas Harries, labourer.
She marries Thomas Jones, miner (same residence) whose father is David Jones, deceased.
Witnesses are Thomas Harries and David Davies
There is also marriage of a William Harries, iron baller, (full age) on 23rd August 1847 to Eleanor Davies. He also gives his address as Heol y Cae, father Thomas Harries, limestone breaker.
Added*
1851 census William Harris, 28, iron baller, born Vaynor, Breconshire, living at 143 High Street, Cefn with wife Eleanor aged 24, and daughters Margaret age 3 and Ann age 1 - all born Vaynor, Breconshire which would fit with Cefn being in Breconshire for the census and not Merthyr, although I expect you would still register in Merthyr Town
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Mar, brilliant once again ;D
I've been trawling through the Vaynor records for any other Harris/Harries and Coombes/Combs etc marriages (sadly Ann Harris married John Coombes in the register office) this morning and have found 2 others I was interested in, but not those. Will add them in to my tree now :) As you say, it all helps to build a picture.
As I've been unable to find a birth registration for Ann Harris, I'm thinking of contacting the Merthyr registration office and see if they can look in the register for me. The only problem is that I only have the very messy 1851 census where she is aged 4, and her death on 12 Mar 1874 (aged 26) to go on, as I've not yet found the family in 1871. I'll wait until the GRO copy of her marriage arrives to see if that gives any further age.
Once again, many thanks Mar. I thought my searching skills had improved but you and osprey are on another level :)
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No probs
I am on a bit of a break from work for a couple of weeks and so am keeping my mind occupied with all this stuff while I rest up ;D ;D
So will keep nosing to see what can be found
Mar
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Much appreciated Mar, and enjoy your rest. The weather's not exactly welcoming to go out ;D
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do you have the birth certs for any children born to John & Ann Coombes? If so, what address was given for any near the 1871 census?
I've had another look at the 1851 census and one of the household above the Harris one was born in Amlwch, so I think the enumerator got a little confused.
;)
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Hi Osprey, they only had 2 children, Sarah Ann, my husband's 2* great grandmother, born 19 Jan 1867 at 73 Brecon Rd, Merthyr, and David, born sometime in October 1871 and died aged 2 months. Mother Ann died in 1874.
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there's a Thomas family at 73 Brecon Road in 1871.
:(
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Ann died at 11 Cross St Plantation, Penydarren on 12 March 1874.
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Possibility for Ann in 1861?
13 Taff Street, Hamlet of Garth, Merthyr. RG09/4061/68/11
I think this must be Taff Street, Merthyr Vale?
Sarah Harris, Head, Unmarried, Female, 80 (1781) occ Knitting, Carmarthen, Carmarthenshire,
Mary Walters, Relative, Unmarried, Female, 50 (1811) Dress Making, Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, Sarah Walters, Relative, Unmarried, Female 18(1843), Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, Wales
Ann Harries, Relative, Unmarried, Female, 14 (1847), Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, Wales
John Harries, Relative, Unmarried, Male, 5 (1856), Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorgan, Wales
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1871 has a family called Lynch at 11 Cross Street.
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I did see that as a possibility Mar, but her half brother John was born in 1853 and was with his parents in 1861, so I just filed it as a possible (in case Ann and John aren't siblings).
The 'relative' is unusual too :-\
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1871 has a family called Lynch at 11 Cross Street.
Thanks osprey, having found the census (which I couldn't, I have very little luck with early addresses :-[ ) is 'Plantation' an area of Penydarren, or is the address '11 Cross St Plantation' :-\
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there was a Plantation Street as well, but they're not there either.
:-\
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there was a Plantation Street as well, but they're not there either.
:-\
Thanks osprey :) They aren't the easiest family to follow ::)
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Hi Deirdre
the Sarah Harris in the 1861 census who is with the Walters and the Harries listed as relatives, is still alive in 1871 - still cant see where a link could be, but am intrigued that David Harries shoemaker ends up in Taff Street in 1891.
In 1871 Sarah is listed as widow and born 1776 in Llandovery, Carmarthen (not unmarried as in 1861 born 1781)
William Walters is the son-in-law, 1805
Eliza Walters, daughter, 1809
John Walters, 1854; William Harris, 1855 and John Harris, 1856 grandsons (the John Harris could be the same one as ten years earlier)
In the Vaynor parish records, FindMyPast has the marriage transcription of Elizabeth Harries to William Watkins on 29th June 1833. When I looked at the image she actually married a William Walters. The record is one of the older ones where the fathers aren't named; a David Harries is a witness :-\.
Mar :) :)
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Sorry Mar, have logged off the computer tonight, only on my phone, watching 'Vera' then going to bed (up at 6 for work 🙁). Need to look at my tree to make sense of that 1871 census ;D so will look tomorrow. Thanks again for all your help.
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Deirdre - going back to 1871, I wasn't sure what age John Coombes was, his general occupation, or where he was born to match in the census with just first names, in case of a mis-transcription by the enumerator?
I could see the following family listed at No 8 Garden St. Penydarren, surname totally wrong :-\
John Evans, head, married, 23, labourer, born Merthyr
Ann Evans, wife, married, 22, born Merthyr
Sarah Ann Evans, daughter, 4, born Merthyr.
RG10/5400/101 Page 27
Mar
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Hi Mar, finally arrived at lunchtime so i can have a look at this. That 1871 Evans entry is really interesting so i'm going to have a look at that first. That was some find ;D
John Coombes was born on 19 Nov 1846 in Merthyr, a 14 year old coalminer in 1861, a 34 yo coalminer in 1881, a 44 yo coalminer in 1891, a 54 yo coal hewer in 1901 and a 64 yo coal hewer in 1911, so age seems spot on throughout. He was a haulier on Sarah Ann's birth cert in 1867. He was a coal miner on Ann's death cert in 1874 and coalminer hewer on his own death cert in 1924. I have his 1866 marriage cert on order from the GRO - pdf trial - which may give more detail re ages and occupation.
So the age is close, occupation possible, Ann was a year younger than him, and Sarah Ann would have been aged 4. I guess i could buy the birth cert for son David born on 7 Oct 1871 and if they were at that address at the time, then great, but they did seem to move around a lot.
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Hi Mar, have run out of time so will have to look at the rest of this tonight but can i ask about this..... why are you intrigued? We haven't seen the family in Taff St before have we? ???
....but am intrigued that David Harries shoemaker ends up in Taff Street in 1891.
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Not as intrigued as maybe I was :-\
I could see that David Harris (1819, shoemaker) is in Taff Street (Toops court) in 1891
That Sarah Harris (1776, Carmarthen) was in Taff Street in 1861 and 1871
That Ann Harries, relative, 14 (1847), was with Sarah Harris (above) in 1861
That in 1861 (2 houses along in Taff Street) is another family of Harris !!
I had thought the address was Taff Street, Merthyr Vale, but I've re-looked at the images and all the Taff Street's are Cyfarthfa ward.
If it had been Taff Street in Merthyr Vale, I thought it was a fair way (I know it's only 4 or 5 miles) to go without any connection family wise. As you probably know Taff Street in Merthyr Vale supported the pit predominantly.
One thing is for sure, there are an awful lot of Harris/Harries in Merthyr !!!!! ;D ;D
Added - nice couple of images of Taff Street on the Alan George website
http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/caepantywyll_page2.htm
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Sorry Mar, I hadn't picked up on the others in Taff Street, though i have tried to find the link between the families, particularly Sarah.
And despite living in Cardiff, i've not actually been to Merthyr ::) - no relatives there now.....
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One thing is for sure, there are an awful lot of Harris/Harries in Merthyr !!!!! ;D ;D
Lots of Coombes and variants too ;D
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Deirdre
lovely in Merthyr, worth a trip ;D
Are you confirmed on Thomas and Hannah Harries as the parents of David (shoemaker) Harries?
Mar
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Not gone any further back than the 1841 so far, partly as David was born in Merthyr, Anglesey or Carmarthenshire ::) though with the possible link with Sarah, Carmarthenshire looks most likely. And obviously not helped by no earlier censuses to explore.
I guess it may depend on whether we are looking for Carmarthen itself, or the whole of Carmarthenshire ;D
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Not sure if this helps at all
8 Sept 1862
JOHN WILLIAMS, BUILDER AND IRONMONGER, OF HIGH STREET, DOWLAIS, AND MARIA HIS WIFE, DECEASED. Public Notice. ALL parties indebted to the above are requested to call at the house of DAVID HARRIES, of No. 13, Taff- street, Pantywyll, Merthyr Tydfil, immediately, so as to make an arrangement to pay their different accounts to Mr. THOMAS SAMUEL, Cordwainer, Well-street, Dowlais.
Most versions of this advert have the address as 15 Taff ST. David Harries being the executor of Maria Williams
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Thanks Mabel, very interesting; another bit and more people to try and link in ::)
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Had the marriage cert for John Coombs and Ann Harris today (GRO, £8 PDF). Doesn't add much as I already knew the date and venue from someone researching the Coombes family, and like Sarah Ann's birth in 1867, is in the middle of two censuses so doesn't help locate them, but it does confirm Ann was aged 20 - wedding on 10 September 1866 - spinster from Pontgellifaclog (that's what it looks like anyway :-\ ), father David Harris, cordwainer. Witnesses William Evans and Margaret Thomas, none signed their names.
John was from Penydarran, aged 21, coalminer, father George (deceased), iron puddler.
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Hi Deirdre
could it read Pontgellifaelog, as that was an area of Merthyr?
Mar
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Hi Deirdre
could it read Pontgellifaelog, as that was an area of Merthyr?
Mar
Thanks Mar, looks more like a 'c' than an 'e' but sounds better, and if you know there was an area called Pontgellifaelog then I'm more than happy to amend my tree entry :)
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Hi Deirdre, this piece in the Merthyr Telegraph of 1857 describes Pontgellifaelog as an area of Dowlais.
PILLAR LETTER BOXES FOR DOWLAIS. To the Editor of the Merthyr Telegraph.
SIR, I think all persons will concur in the opinion that the pillars recently erected at Merthyr, for the reception of letters, are a great convenience to the public; and if they are a convenience to the inhabitants of Merthyr, similar pillars, placed in convenient spots in Dowlais, would be a great accommodation to the inhabitants of that town likewise. What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for gander." I would, therefore, respectfully, suggest that three or four pillars are erected in various parts of Dowlais: one might' be placed at Caeharris one at the top of Mount Pleasant Street and one near Pontgellifaelog. It is because I consider that the above arrangement of pillars for letters would be a public boon, that I suggest it.
Thinking of the birth for Ann, it must be one of the following if it happened in Merthyr and Ann was definitely born in 1846(+/- a year) as per her age given as 20 when she married?
HARRIS, ANN, but there is no mothers maiden name listed - what's that all about?
or
GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL UNION Volume 26 Page 427
HARRIS, ANN mmn WYNTER
GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL UNION Volume 26 Page 395
Doesn't help either with the other sibling David, as no consistent 'other, mmn for both of them
Mar
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Unless it wasn't registered, though Elizabeth and Sarah's appear to have been mmn Roberts. Will email Merthyr reg office tonight.
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Worked out how to search them :D unfortunately no women listed yet !!
Electoral Register for Merthyr
1873 - Coombs, John, dwelling house, 8 Cross Street, North of Mount Pleasant Street
1876 - Coombs, John, dwelling house, 11 Cross Street, South of Mount Pleasant Street
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Gosh Mar, you have been busy! I like the newspaper report on the pillar boxes!
Are the electoral registers online? Even men had to own the house at that time, didn't they (to vote I mean). Another thing I need to read up on ;D
That info is great though, means I can record their movements (was able to do that for my own great grandparents (1870s-1890s) by the birth and death records of their children - they lost 7 of 13).
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John's wife Ann died at 11 Cross St (the cert says 11 Cross St Plantation, Penydarren), ie no comma between Cross St and Plantation. Does this mean anything to you (or make sense)?
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By 1881, John had re-married and was living in Penrhiwceiber :)
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Hi Deirdre
it's this enforced rest that's doing it; I wont be so glued to the laptop when I'm running about again in a couple of weeks :) :)
The electoral roll for Penydarren shows addresses, for example:
Plantation Street
Jenkins Court, Plantation Street
Cross Street East, Plantation Street
Top Cross Street, Plantation Street
Top of Cross Street, Plantation Street
1st Gully, Plantation Street
Gully, Plantation Street
There are lots of other streets that also seem to locate themselves by linking to another street (Dowlais is the same), so I think they've just left the word 'street' off after Plantation on the death cert. Maybe that was how people said it locally?
One of my favourite Merthyr sites (Alan George Old Merthyr again !) has an image of what Plantation Street houses looked like - off the road and back to back
http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/penydarrenpage3.htm
I've got the electoral rolls on FindMyPast, but have never really looked properly before (it's this enforced rest again that's given me hours to waste ;D)
Mar
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Mar, I for one am extremely grateful for your efforts and hope it is giving you something to keep you occupied (enforced rest is hard work!). I have FindMyPast but didn't think to look on there for old electoral registers tho' I use the later years! Considering the majority of my lot couldn't read or write I'd be surprised to see many feature.
I'm still in work so may have a complete computer break when I finish tonight, but many, many thanks to you. Hope you are resting as instructed ;D
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Sadly no birth record in Merthyr for Ann, so either her birth wasn't registered or she was born elsewhere (though the records i have for her all say born Merthyr).
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Hi Deirdre :)
I've been having a further think about the entry for Ann Harris, Sept Q 1846 (Vol 26 page 427) that has dash in the GRO online index for mothers maiden name.
This date for the entry would fit with the 1851 entry for age 4; would fit with that possible entry in 1861 for an Ann Harris a 'relative' with the old lady Sarah Harries; would fit with being 20 when marrying in September 1866; but is out for her death in 1874 (aged 26).
A search on discussions here on RootsChat about the use of a 'dash' where the entry for the mothers maiden name should be, says:
- either no maiden name (i.e. unmarried)
- maiden name the same as married name (i.e. a Harris marrying a Harris, although the discussion says it would usually still be listed)
- unreadable
- not properly indexed (the advice was to check others indexed on the same page as some people had found a page where many entries had no mothers maiden name)
With this in mind, I went through all the birth entries for Merthyr (vol 26 page 427), for Q2 and Q3 in 1846 and the entry for Ann Harris is the only one with a dash against the mothers maiden name.
My thoughts.....
*totally unrelated birth;
*mothers maiden name is unreadable and it could be your Ann;
*a birth entry for an unmarried relation (to David shoemaker) and David and his wife have taken the child into their home as their own child. If the latter was the case, then Ann may never had known, and could have named David as her father on her marriage certificate.
*of course this still doesn't help with the inconsistency for the registration of David in 1850 (aged 9 months in 1851 census).
*the cholera epidemic in 1849 was catastrophic for Merthyr, 1,600 deaths of a pop of 40,000+; how many children were taken in by other families due to parental deaths -well mainly the mother as father would need to work to live.
Mar :)
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Hi Mar, thanks very much for your continued searching, much appreciated.
I too was interested in the '-' entry, and as there is no registration for David either (not that i can see), i wonder if they have both been taken in / adopted by David and Ann. If the 1850 David was theirs, but not Ann, that means a big gap between Sarah in 1844 and David. Unless none of the children are registered and the Elizabeth and Sarah births to a Roberts mother are another family. :-\
I've found a possible burial for Ann (wife) in 1851, so maybe that death cert would give us a clue. If she had been ill for some years, maybe it would confirm that Ann and David were not her children. While i've not yet located a re-marriage for David to Margaret, their first child was born in 1853 so 1851 looks reasonable, and the Ann Harris burial (at St Tydfil's) was aged 38 (though if born in 1811 she should have been 40). Think another email to Merthyr registration office is in order :)
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Hi Deirdre
The GRO reference shows the birth of John Harris: 1853 Sept Quarter in Merthyr Volume 11A Page 272 with a mothers maiden name of Davies.
FreeBMD reference on the same page for marriages (June quarter 1852 -11a 521) of a David Harris and a Margaret Davies along with others, so could be possible if the death of Ann in 1851 is right.
Mar
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Hi Mar, I saw the 1853 John (mmn Davies) birth but there aren't similar records for Jane (1866, though there is one in 1864) and James (1868, nothing +/- 2 years) from the 1871 census so I wasn't convinced she was Davies. :-\
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Deidre
there is a baptism in Merthyr on 26th July 1846 of Ann, daughter of Ann Harris. Under the 'abode' column I'm convinced it says single woman. Then under the trade or profession column it says Glebeland - probably Glebeland Street in Merthyr town centre. I couldn't find it using a specific search on FindMyPast, so to see it, go to an 'all categories' search; put in Ann Austin, year of birth 1846 (with no parameter on years); Merthyr Tydfil for 'where'. Then hit search.
First hit will be Ann Austin, Glamorgan baptisms; click the image button to bring up the images for pages 236 and 237, then click one page to the right to bring up pages 238 and 239. Look at the last image at the bottom of page 239.
Could this be the same Ann Harris, Sept Q 1846 (Vol 26 page 427) that has dash in the GRO online index for mothers maiden name.
Mar ;D
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Mar, that's an amazing find, and yes it does look like the Ann Harris (name nor terribly clear, maybe that's why the search doesn't find her) registered in Sep quarter 1846 with a dash for mother's maiden name.
Will have a quick look to see if there are any other family baptisms there (don't think i've found any in glamorgan before).
On leave this week, down in sunny - at the moment - north Devon, but sadly very limited internet access, though working ok now.
Hope you are enjoying your enforced rest, and thanks again for all your help. 🌸🌻🌹
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Enjoy Devon, hope it clears up
I'll keep looking to see if there are any others