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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: D ap D on Thursday 28 July 05 09:01 BST (UK)
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Not wanting to hijack Gracelands thread, but following a similar line of thought, I have questions to 2 subjects:
1)
If the grave of, say, your great great grandparents from ca. 1860 was still there, the grave all over grown, the headstone simply decayed away so that the council would probably lay it flat or remove soon, what would you do?
Would you clear away all the rubbish and detritus? Would you leave the stone as it is as a "monument, because thats the original stone"? Or would you arrange to have a new stone erected?
2)
You find the grave of another set of gg grandparents. Due to their financial circumstances at the time, they couldn't afford a stone. You know that not only are your gggp there, but also 3 of their children. You know the date of burial, you know the dates of birth and the dates they died.
Would you have a stone put on the grave? If so, would you ask other family members to contribute?
These are current subjects of mine, I've been mulling them over in my mind for a while and I'd now like to hear the opinions of others.
D
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Personally if I could afford it I would erect a new stone in each case. I would also ask other family members if they wished to contribute but be prepared for them to refuse.
:)
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Hi
I asked about a rellies stone in the local cemetery here in Kent, England. Their reply was only the person who had purchased the grave could have a stone changed or repaired. Presumably the 'ownership' would pass to the next of kin.
I am wondering if each local council set their own rules or if there is a set rule for the whole of the UK.
Linda
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Gravestones like all heritable property including burial plots may be assigned in a will otherwise they are included in the clause that covers all other unamed items.
Cheers
Guy
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Not wanting to hijack Gracelands thread, but following a similar line of thought, I have questions to 2 subjects:
1)
If the grave of, say, your great great grandparents from ca. 1860 was still there, the grave all over grown, the headstone simply decayed away so that the council would probably lay it flat or remove soon, what would you do?
Would you clear away all the rubbish and detritus? Would you leave the stone as it is as a "monument, because thats the original stone"? Or would you arrange to have a new stone erected?
2)
You find the grave of another set of gg grandparents. Due to their financial circumstances at the time, they couldn't afford a stone. You know that not only are your gggp there, but also 3 of their children. You know the date of burial, you know the dates of birth and the dates they died.
Would you have a stone put on the grave? If so, would you ask other family members to contribute?
These are current subjects of mine, I've been mulling them over in my mind for a while and I'd now like to hear the opinions of others.
D
I have helped others in both situations.
1) Rather than remove the existing stone arrange to have a new stone the same size and shape placed back to back with the original stone.
Any new inscription may be added to the new stone which will provide support for the original.
2) If the vicar or the cemetery authorities allow a stone could be placed on the grave with a date of when it was erected to avoid confusion in later years.
Whether to ask for contributions depends on the family members situation and feelings towrds the person buried.
Cheers
Guy
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When my Grandmother died, years ago
her name was never placed on the Gravestone,
Many moons later my Grandfather was then
buried in the same grave, and still no
inscriptions.
The grave now consisted of Great Grandfather,
Great Grandmother, Two small children, my
Grandfather and Grandmother.
(Grave now full)
Many moons later it was agreed to place my
Grandparents names on the grave. but the
gravestone was full.
So another Gravestone was made and the
inscriptions were placed on. (I was pleased)
But the two small children were omitted
(I cannot say I was in agreement but it was
the older generation that made the desision)
Jinks
Being into family history I would place as much information as was possible.
ie. b1900 d.1990
maiden name, abode, relationships.
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I have found a child of my great-grandmother who died when she was only 18 months old in 1911. They could not afford a headstone at the time and as years passed on no one knew she existed until I found her again.
I am having a stone put on her grave and plan on asking the previous generation (my father and his cousins) to donate if they would like. If not, no problem, I will still have it done.
Karen
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Interesting about ownership of graves and restrictions on what you can do!
My local cemetery here in Oz is very laid back. Doing the right thing, I went to see the cemetery admin. officer before starting to do anything. His attitude was that it was up to me what I did and he didn't even particularly want to know about it! Certainly didn't ask for any proof that I was a descendant of the people buried there.
I have a dilemma about caring for graves also. A few months ago, two cousins in Sydney took me on a drive to see family graves they had discovered. Many were very historic, and also in very poor repair. But one cousin in particular feels that they should be left as they are. As she was the one who found them, and as Sydney is 1,000 kilometres from where I live, I don't feel I can do anything, but it is niggling at me!!!
MarieC
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Hi Marie, just reading your comments and agree we are much more laid back over here (in Oz), and apart from historically important cemeteries like Rookwood in Sydney, as long as you are not intentionally desecrating a grave I think pretty much anything goes in terms of restoration/clearing/cleaning etc!
I went to London last year for a few months (studying) and was quite close to the old Camberwell cemetery, so decided to visit one lunchtime (having written to the local council beforehand and got a map showing where my grave of interest was located). When I walked in the gates I was pleasantly surprised, everything was well-kept and there were workers tidying up about the place, nice paths, little buildings etc. But then I turned off about 50 yards inside the gates, onto a little gravel path leading between VERY overgrown plots...the first row on either side of the path was cleared, but after that it was thick brambles, HUGE rosebushes (honestly, I've never seen anything like it!!) and reasonable sized trees growing all over and between the graves! I had to find one that was 3 rows in, and then when I found it the stone was face down on the grave!!!
I took two distant cousins there a few weeks later, and we turned the stone over so we could read it (after taking secateurs and knives to clear a path!) but most of the face of the stone had rotted away into the earth - it had obviously fallen a long time ago. However, we made out some of the names and other text (we knew who had been buried there from the cemetery records)...we decided to leave the stone up - we and our immediate families are the only descendants of the people in the grave, so we felt it was our right to leave the stone upright and visible, if it had been in better condition we might have laid it down again to preserve the carving, but so much of it was gone we preferred to have it standing so it could at least be seen from the path.
I was really saddened by the state of about 80% of the old Camberwell cemetery. The same, I believe, goes for many of the very large Victorian urban cemeteries in London. The letter I had from the council indicated that the grave was in a "conservation" area - when I first read that I thought "oh good, they are conserving all the graves so it will be in great condition!" - how wrong I was!
Gosh, what a rambling post that was :-[
Have attached a pic of part of the stone so you can see the state it was in. I asked the council if I could lift it and they said I could basically do what i liked with it.
Prue
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Hi Prue!
One of the graves I was referring to was in Rookwood and it was very overgrown by large shrubs and grass and weeds (though probably not quite as bad as the one you refer to in London!) and the other was in St John's Parramatta where the stone was broken and lying on the ground. That is the oldest family grave I know of (4xggrandmother, a convict) and I am really sorry that I don't feel I can do anything about it!
MarieC
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Hi Marie,
You should do something about it if you want to. If you want to have the stone lifted and repaired, or whatever, that's your right as a descendant of that person. What were your cousin's reasons for not doing anything? If she just didn't think it was worth it, then she may not mind if you want to go to the trouble?
You're lucky to have a convict ancestor's grave - of my two convicts, one was buried in the old Sydney burial ground in 1836 and later dug up to make room for one of the city train stations (Town Hall I think) and i think the bones were moved to Rookwood en masse from there. The other one died I know not where :'(
My dad's father had two little sisters who drowned in 1895 in Ulmarra, NSW, aged 10 and 6. They are in the Ulmarra cemetery with no grave marker. The family long ago moved away from that district and it has been in the back of my mind for a while that I should have something put there for them.
Prue
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I took two distant cousins there a few weeks later, and we turned the stone over so we could read it (after taking secateurs and knives to clear a path!) but most of the face of the stone had rotted away into the earth - it had obviously fallen a long time ago. However, we made out some of the names and other text (we knew who had been buried there from the cemetery records)...we decided to leave the stone up - we and our immediate families are the only descendants of the people in the grave, so we felt it was our right to leave the stone upright and visible, if it had been in better condition we might have laid it down again to preserve the carving, but so much of it was gone we preferred to have it standing so it could at least be seen from the path.
I was really saddened by the state of about 80% of the old Camberwell cemetery. The same, I believe, goes for many of the very large Victorian urban cemeteries in London. The letter I had from the council indicated that the grave was in a "conservation" area - when I first read that I thought "oh good, they are conserving all the graves so it will be in great condition!" - how wrong I was!
Gosh, what a rambling post that was :-[
Have attached a pic of part of the stone so you can see the state it was in. I asked the council if I could lift it and they said I could basically do what i liked with it.
Prue
Unfortunately your actions are going to cause the stone to deteriorate more rapidly and my even (if you left the stone standing) result in the stone being removed, in case it falls on someone.
It is possible to read some stones where the entire face has eroded but this is expensive at present, as with all technology it will become cheaper in time.
Laying a carved stone face up will cause rapid deterioration due to frost damage, laying a stone face down slightly below ground level protects from frost damage, as does a good layer of leaves.
Stones that were intended to be laid flat are normally of better quality stone deeply engraved.
A conservation area or nature conservation area means a part of the graveyard where they can't be bothered clearing the undergrowth and it is allowed to return to nature.
Cheers
Guy
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I found that my greatgrandparents were in my local cemetery in Nottingham. I asked where the plot is and there is no stone. I cannot believe that there has never been a stone. My greatgrandfather died in 1920 and was fairly wealthy. My greatgrandmother joined him over 40 years later in the mid 1960s. How do I find out if there was a stone and if so what has happened to it. The cemetery officer said stones were not taken away as they are not the councils property and it would not have deteriorated so quickly since 1920. I presume it was moved to add greatgrannys inscription and never got returned, but how do I check this out.
Jane
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Unfortunately your actions are going to cause the stone to deteriorate more rapidly and my even (if you left the stone standing) result in the stone being removed, in case it falls on someone.
Hi Guy,
We were aware of the consequences of leaving the stone up, but as I said, it was pretty much completely deteriorated anyway and as we are the last living relatives, we decided it was our prerogative to leave the stone up. It was left lying on its side, against a tree root, and is in no danger of falling over - if anyone could get into the area in the first place, through all the overgrowth!!
Prue
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Hi Prue,
My cousin just seems to believe strongly in leaving things as they are. And I don't want to start family ructions - we are all strong-minded, Scottish and stubborn!
I was touched by the story of your grandfather's two little sisters. My gggrandmother had two little daughters who died of diphtheria on the voyage out, and they are buried in St Vincent in the Cape Verde islands. Like you, I would like to ensure that their graves are marked. And I have a ggrandfather who died out past Quilpie somewhere and is buried by a stockroute, and so far I am having no luck in locating his grave. I would like to find and restore it also! (I am going to be busy, aren't I???)
Marie
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Blimey Marie, you will be a world traveller between Cape Verde islands and Quilpie ;D
Personally I reckon you will have more luck with finding the graves on the island than the one out back of Quilpie, but you never know...I remember being out Winton way about 10 years ago and stopping for a cuppa by the side of teh road, and there was a little marker for a grave of a surveyor or some other such government worker, right out there in the middle of nowhere. So you might be lucky.
Yes, the little girls at Ulmarra is a sad story, I guess the family was too poor to shell out for a grave marker but we think we know where their grave is (luckily it is a small cemetery). The younger girl went down to the river to bathe (that was their bathroom!) and fell in, and the older one went in to try to save her, but they both drowned. Terribly sad. They were the little sisters of my grandfather whose picture is on my profile; he would never have known them as he was only a baby when they died.
Prue
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About a year ago I located my Gd fathers & Gt Gd fathers family grave in Weaste cemetery in Salford. I then rechecked with Agecroft cemetery who was buried in this plot and was shocked to find 7 people in total.
When I showed my father the pictures and listings he was also shocked as was the rest of his brothers/sisters.
It turns out that my fathers aunty replaced the original headstone when she had her mum my Gt Gd mother laid to rest, so as you can see the only names present are her mum & dad and F-in-L.
My family line goes through Frederick Gd father & Sampson/Samuel Gt Gd father. My father wants to replace the headstone but has been told me cannot as he is not the legal owner of the plot.
Why would someone do this type of thing, ignore her own brothers & sisters. I dont understand why
Regards
Ken
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I found that my greatgrandparents were in my local cemetery in Nottingham. I asked where the plot is and there is no stone. I cannot believe that there has never been a stone. My greatgrandfather died in 1920 and was fairly wealthy. My greatgrandmother joined him over 40 years later in the mid 1960s. How do I find out if there was a stone and if so what has happened to it. The cemetery officer said stones were not taken away as they are not the councils property and it would not have deteriorated so quickly since 1920. I presume it was moved to add greatgrannys inscription and never got returned, but how do I check this out.
Jane
First you need to establish what class of plot it is, some plots prohibit the erection of gravestones.
It was very common for a grave not to be marked by a stone or to simply be surrounded by a kerb, these kerbs were often removed to prevent damage to the mowing machines.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy
There are gravestones around it. The red paint marks the spot.
Jane
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I would have thought the photo gives you a clue there are obviously unmarked grave plots all round your great grandparents grave. It is highly likely that stones have been removed no matter what you are being told.
I note the only kerbs seem to be on plots with a headstone as well.
The way the class system works in cemeteries is apart from pauper graves there are other graves which headstone are not allowed. This gives the impression that the cemetery is not as crowded as might otherwise be the case if every grave was marked.
Cheers
Guy
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Guy
Thanks. I will start investigating.
Jane
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There are so many sad stories - and yours is one, Prue!
And yours is another, Ken. It is really, really sad that your father cannot replace the headstone to say who is buried there. I wish you had cemetery regulations like we do in Oz. We have just had a plaque attached to a headstone to commemorate someone whose ashes were informally buried in a grave and never commemorated, and there was absolutely no problem. I do hope you and your dad can find a way around it.
Marie
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:D After reading the posts on here it seems we still like our Gravestones :D
You can Have a pot put on unpurchased Graves ::)
With Names dates on est !! :D
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You can Have a pot put on unpurchased Graves
With Names dates on est !!
Hey thats a good idea, without going to too much expense.
Aren't pots likely to get knocked over, kicked around, hit by lawnmowers, stolen though, if they are just standing around?
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Hi
We put a small marble urn on my mother's grave when the hole in the stone, for flowers, sprung a leak!
After my father died we had the pot engraved with their names but we do keep the grave free of grass, otherwise it makes it difficult for the man with the mower ::)
Susan :)
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I found this post very interesting.
I have a grave of my grandparents which is unmarked and I have often thought of putting a stone there, but have never persued the idea because I thought it would cost more than I could afford. :-\
Does anybody have any estimation of the cost of a traditional average sized stone so that I can approach other family members with the idea? :)
thanks for any ideas
jax
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;D Now if were talking pots i mean Heavy Marble one with names on etc , Not cheap Brown Plastic ones ??? ???
Then no fear of blowing away at least , ;D
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I think the proper name should be URN ;D
Susan :D
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I found my GG Grandparents grave in our local cemetary. All that remained was a small nub of a stone with just the surname hand carved into the stone (very worn and very faint) & the remains of a few curb stones.
I enquired about erecting a stone and was told that was not allowed. I asked about placing new curb stones around the grave to define the plot - again - not allowed. I then asked about placing a marble vase with an inscription and again was told - not allowed.
Sadly it seems that some local authorities prefer to allow graves to fall into disrepair to the extent that they vanish off the face of the earth rather than allow those relatives who wish, to commemorate their ancestors - very sad :(
(One consellation - I found a grave that contained my Gx4 Grandfather, Gx3 Grandparents and G Grandparents with the stone still intact. I was allowed to clean that up as best I could and get assurances that the stone would not be "touched" without contacting me first.)
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URN ,,,,, Yes was racking my brain for that word Ta !! ;D
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NigelG,
Talk about bureaucracy gone mad!! That is crazy stuff. I presume that the cemetery as a whole looks rather unkempt because the authorities will not allow anyone to do anything. My sympathies!
MarieC
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I found my GG Grandparents grave in our local cemetary. All that remained was a small nub of a stone with just the surname hand carved into the stone (very worn and very faint) & the remains of a few curb stones.
It sounds very much as if the Headstone has gone and only the Footstone and kerbstones remain.
If the cemetry is a Council run cemetry ask that the subject be brought up in the council chamber and the matter resolved there.
It may also be fruitful to raise the matter in a local paper.
Cheers
Guy