RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Tyrone => Topic started by: MissM on Wednesday 22 March 17 15:41 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
My Great Grandparents, Robert and Margaret (nee Murphy) Smith lived in the cottage in the photos attached in Donaghmore in Dungannon with my Grandma Mary. My cousin found the cottage with local help many years ago and although I realise it's probably well gone, I'm wondering if anyone local could take a guess at where it was. My cousin said it was in Lissuman but I'm having trouble finding it.
I'm using Google Earth to search the area but I'm getting nowhere fast!
Any help would be appreciated! I know I'm asking a lot! :)
MissM
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Hi,
I wonder if the townland should read LISNAHULL.
Regards
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If the townland name of 'Lissuman' has been passed down orally (rather than someone previously seeing it written in an actual document) then Lisnamonaghan might also be a possibility.
https://www.townlands.ie/tyrone/dungannon-middle/donaghmore/lisnamonaghan/
If we could find you family in records there's a better chance of identifying it correctly so that we can then try to pinpoint the location of the house.
So, when would your great-grandparents have been born or married? If your grandmother is dead her date of birth, or at least the year, would also help.
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Thanks for your replies. I'll have a look at the link. :)
Lissuman is the name that my cousin gave to the photos so at the moment, that's all I know about it. I just know she went to Donoughmore in Dungannon. She got chatting to an elderly gentlemen about the family and he remembered them and pointed her to this cottage!
In our family tree we have Robert's birth as 1837 and his wife Margaret Murphy as 1840. Their daughter Mary was born in 1884 and lived in this cottage until she was married. In the 1911 census she is living with my Grandad, and two of their children in Drumatine, Glen in Down.
I just really wanted to actually see where they lived on Google Earth but my cousin is very vague about it all now!
Thanks for your help! :)
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We need facts and sources in order to find this property for you. I've tried searching for Mary in 1911 census (Dromantine in Glen DED, Co.Down is the closest I could come to the Drumatine, Glen in Down you posted in last reply) but couldn't find her with husband & 2 children. I've also failed to find a birth c1884 with mother's name as Murphy, etc.
So, when did Mary Smith marry and what was the name of her husband?
Have you faound Mary Smith in 1901 census?
I did check Lisnahull townland in Valuation Revision Book for 1882-1890 and only Smith there was a William Smith.
Any idea when Robert and Margaret Smith died? have you found then in any records?
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Hi, I've been in touch with my cousin again and she's now referred me to Lissummon in Poyntz Pass which is about 10 miles from where I was looking. Why she posed next to a road sign for Dungannon I'll never know!
You are right about Mary in the 1911 census - Dromatine/Drumatine - but we haven't been able to find further back than that. At the moment I'm concentrating on finding this house, or the site it was on, as the records are scant.
Thanks for your help in narrowing things down a bit. I'm sorry if we sent you off on a wild goose chase!
PS: Here is the link to the Drumatine census we have. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Glen/Drumantine/253779/
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This link to a pdf document may be helpful (it includes the names Smith and Murphy in relation to Lissumon, Ponyntz Pass, as well as various 'maps'):
http://www.poyntzpass.co.uk/Before_I_Forget/1987_No_1/Rural_Change%20_in_the_Co_Armagh_Townland_of_Lissummon_1784_to_the_Present_Day.pdf
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In order to find the property more information is needed. I have checked 1901 and 1911 townland of Lissummon for Smith/Smyth without finding a Robert or Margret who could be Mary's parents.
So, who was Mary's husband?
Here are the 1911 census surnames for Drumantine townland- which one is for Mary & her family?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Glen/Drumantine/
None of the married woman are named Mary (or a variation of the name) that I can see :-\
Once you answer the above questions the next stage is looking for Mary's marriage and then her birth which will hopefully end in finding the house
Location of Dumantine townland-
https://www.townlands.ie/down/iveagh-upper-upper-half/donaghmore/drumantine/
Location of Lissummon-
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/orior-lower/killevy-lower-orior-portion/lissummon/
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Sorry, I've crossposted.
Mary was listed as Margaret in the census link to the Drumatine census we have. http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Glen/Drumantine/253779/
She married William James Kidd. From the birth of her first daughter - no guarantee, I know! - I presume they were married in about 1909.
I've had a good read round the Poyntzpass website and the publication on there about Lissummon but can't quite figure out the borders!
We don't have anything else on Robert b 1837/d 1924 and Margaret (nee Murphy) b 1840/d unknown.
Thanks for all your efforts to help me!:D
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1911 census says married 3 years so probably c1907/1908.
Daughter Sarah Jane born 1909 'Lisumon', father James Kidd, mother Margaret Smith-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01617/1648424.pdf
Daughter Elizabeth born 1911 Dromantine-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01543/1624931.pdf
Son James born 1912 Poyntz Pass-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01476/1601414.pdf
James Kidd & Maggie Smyth married 1908- her father James Smyth not Robert-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1908/10071/5663260.pdf
Possibly 'Maggie Smyth' in 1901 with widowed mother Sarah, etc.-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Poyntzpass/Lissumon/1037393
more to come...
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Birth of Margaret Smith 1884- parents James Smith & Sarah Jane Wilson-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02673/1985084.pdf
now off to get location of house...
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Wow....! They are my Auntie Sadie and Auntie Lily's birth records! Uncle James died as a baby so we never knew him.
Thank you so much!
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Funny about my Grandad's name. I searched for him as James as I'd always known him as that. Eventually after no luck, someone said 'you know his first name was William, right...?' Same with Grandma. Always told she was Mary... until it was casually mentioned she was christened Mary Margaret..
:O
Just checked Grandad (William) James and he was born in 1887. He died in 1974 when I was 14. So that record is not his. :(
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Administration (with the Will) of the Estate of James Smyth late of Lissummon County Armagh Farmer who died 12 March 1898 granted at Armagh to Samuel J. Smyth Farmer. Will mentions wife Sarah (nee Wilson), son Samuel John Smyth, son Robert James, daughter Elizabeth Jane Shields, daughter Hannah Maria Hamilton and 'two youngest children' (not named).
Death for James Smith (above) gives as age 75-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05843/4655455.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Poyntz_Pass/Lissummon/307718
Valuation Revision Books show property #5 changed from Sarah J. Smith to Samuel Smith in 1918. James Smith listed same place in Griffith's Valuation
Using Griffith's Valuation, townland map and Google Streetview- this looks like the property on left side of lane Smith house (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Cullentragh+Rd,+Poyntzpass,+Newry+BT35+6SD/@54.2568948,-6.3924555,3a,75y,59.4h,76.25t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s90XGYQirwdTjRwrns5agEg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D90XGYQirwdTjRwrns5agEg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D92.512405%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x4860c298f69d0379:0xbff490a92239dc29!8m2!3d54.2589432!4d-6.3958959!6m1!1e1)- you should be able to zoom in on it a bit and switch to satellite view
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Funny about my Grandad's name. I searched for him as James as I'd always known him as that. Eventually after no luck, someone said 'you know his first name was William, right...?' Same with Grandma. Always told she was Mary... until it was casually mentioned she was christened Mary Margaret..
:O
Just checked Grandad (William) James and he was born in 1887. He died in 1974 when I was 14. So that record is not his. :(
What record isn't your grandfather?
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William James Kidd & parents in 1901-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Donaghmore/Tullymurry/1244849
Elizabeth Kidd & a son John in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Donaghmore/Tullymurry/253686
July 1911 (just after census) a Robert Smith of Lissummon (son of James) married an Agnes Kidd- possibly Margaret Smith's brother-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09956/5619835.pdf
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Re: Just checked Grandad (William) James and he was born in 1887. He died in 1974 when I was 14. So that record is not his. :(
Just ignore me aghadowey... I was blown away by the other findings... and my other half came home and was talking in my ear..... and I got my James mixed up!
THANK YOU SO MUCH! :D That certainly does look like the cottage they lived in! I've spent days 'driving' around N Ireland looking for it on Google Earth! It certainly is a beautiful country and I've enjoyed the journey but I was getting disheartened.
I can't thank you enough for helping me find their home and for the extra information you've found a long the way. :D
Lynne
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We got there in the end ;D
Not sure why you had Margaret's parents as Robert & Margaret- could they be the names of her grandparents?
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No I'm not sure either. I'll have to work through my notes (a library full...) and see why!
Thanks again for everything!
Lynne