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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: Kevin hoy on Friday 24 March 17 10:22 GMT (UK)
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Eileen Elisabeth Curtis ( birthday 18th June ) arrived on a ship in South Africa from the U.K. At the age of 10. Married John David Hoy and had my father Leslie Lionel Hoy.
No other information available.
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Hi,
What year did she travel?
Maggsie
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Welcome to Rootschat, Kevin
Can you give us some dates? Her year of birth? When did the ship arrive?
Do you know the name of the ship?
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
The marriage took place in July 1925 - Ellen Elizabeth age 30
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SZQ-RCX?mode=g&i=2349&cc=2063749
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Welcome from me too. :)
I can't see a birth registration in England or Wales for Eileen Elizabeth Curtis 1890-1900. The marriage entry says that she was born in Natal. :-\
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She has signed the marriage as Ellen not Eileen :-\
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Still nothing to coincide with a birthday of 18 June.
March quarter 1893 - Ellen Elizabeth - Hackney
March quarter 1897 - Ellen Elizabeth - Portsea
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Still nothing to coincide with a birthday of 18 June.
March quarter 1893 - Ellen Elizabeth - Hackney
March quarter 1897 - Ellen Elizabeth - Portsea
I was informed that she had been born in England and come to South Africa at the age of 10.
I saw a copy of her wedding certificate bt cannot seem to re-access it. Please advise how I can re-access this document for printing purposes and is there any record of a South African birth certificate?
Many thanks
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The link to the marriage is here ;D
Hi
Welcome to rootschat
The marriage took place in July 1925 - Ellen Elizabeth age 30
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6SZQ-RCX?mode=g&i=2349&cc=2063749
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Hi,
I am not in Ancestry now, so if someone would be kind enough, there are 2 Ellen Curtis records, one from Brazil to the UK and another from the UK to South Africa.
There are on the UK incoming list and the UK Outgoing list.
Maggsie
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Thank you for the marriage certificate link.............is there a possible South African birth certificate?
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Not that I can see searching on https://familysearch.org/search
There is however your fathers marriage on that site
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I fortunately have my fathers marrige certificate.
However, I am desperate to establish where my grandmther was born be it SA or UK and her birth certificate. This is what I am requiring as I was always told she came out from the UK as a 10 year old child.
Many thanks indeed thus far..
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There is an entry for Mr, Mrs and Miss Curtis - leaving Southampton with destination East London -
5 November 1906 "Barbarossa". However Miss Curtis is said to be aged 12 and over.
Sorry, more than one vessel listed ::) Union Castle Line "Armadale Castle" leaving Southampton 3 November 1906.
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I wonder if this is relevant going to Canada though :-\
Ellen Elizabeth Curtis
Age 18
Departure Date 19 Apr 1911
Port of Departure Bristol, England
Destination - Quebec, Canada
Ship- Royal George
On same ticket is a Clara Curtis age 41
Listed also on a ticket number two tickets earlier
George Joseph Thomas Curtis age 21
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Clara and "Elizabeth Ellen" are on the 1911 census - Tiverton.
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Clara and "Elizabeth Ellen" are on the 1911 census - Tiverton.
She's in Twerton near Bath,not Tiverton ;D
Baptised as Ellen Elizabeth,seems she likes to swop her names round.
Name: Ellen Elizabeth Curtis
Baptism Date: 20 Nov 1892
Father: Henry James Curtis
Mother: Clara Curtis
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They are in Bath 1901
RG13/2342 f54 p12
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS82-X4P
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I'm not sure that this is our girl.
She seems to marry (as Nellie Curtis) in Waterloo Ontario in 1918 to an Arthur Crossman.
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Yes, I seem to agree with you. No our 'girl'.
I have now vaguely established from my 90 year old mother that my Grandmother Ellen Elisabeth Curtis) came to SA with her 2 brothers, one named John.
Whew, so difficult without a reliable source of information on my side.
The marriage certificate is authentic as my mother instantly recognised her handwriting and signature etc.
If only we could obtain a birth certificate but this remains is the big mystery........
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At least that has eliminated her Carol :) I could not see her going from Canada to South Africa.
This confirms that marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-LBLC-B2S?mode=g&i=1272&cc=1784216
Rosie
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No, it certainly wasnt her. The first marriage certificate to John David Hoy recieved from you was absolutely correct.
Hopefully we can work back from there to try and establish her birth place and bith certificate.
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What a shame that SA marriage certs don't have more info on them,like father's name for example!
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What can your mother tell you about her brothers
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Just a thought - do you have copies of your grandparents' death notices and/or estate papers? From the South African ones that I have seen, there is often a lot of information.
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Still nothing to coincide with a birthday of 18 June.
March quarter 1893 - Ellen Elizabeth - Hackney
March quarter 1897 - Ellen Elizabeth - Portsea
We can eliminate the Portsea one
Deaths Jun 1900
Curtis Ellen Elizabeth age 3
Portsea 2b 307
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Just chatted again with my Mother and sadly no useful information or documentation i.e. death certificats etc. on my grandmother or her brothers except that John Curtis (one brother) lived in Pietrmatitzburg for many years and died there.
My grandmother also died in Pietermaritzburg. Not sure of the date though.
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Hi there
John David Hoy died in South Africa in 1965.
DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 6427/1965
PART 1
DESCRIPTION HOY, JOHN DAVID.
STARTING 19650000
ENDING 19650000
REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE EILEEN ELIZABETH HOY (BORN CURTIS).
Unfortunately what is online only goes as far as 1960 so can't get a look at the estate file.
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Do you have John Curtis' full names or was he just John Curtis? Do you have the other brother's name by any chance?
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No sadly I do not have any more information on John Curtis except that he was my grandmothers brother and lived in Pietermaritzburg.
Is there no way we could establish my grandmothers ID number tracing back from her marriage certificate or information at hand to obtain information relating to her birth or death certificates?
It is so important to establish whether she was born in the UK or SA
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You wouldn't happen to know which religion she would have been baptised in? Looking at her marriage certificate it would appear that they married in the magistrates court. It would narrow down the baptism records that need to be searched.
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3 silly dogs,it's so handy having you on board as you know what records there are and where to find them. 8)
Carol
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Not always ;D ;D ;D
Family Search is still the best for South African records and new ones are added all the time. But there are a lot of untranscribed ones as well and they have to be searched image by image so it's easier to try and narrow the search.
Nookie is very good with South African records, I am always amazed at the things she finds.
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Hi 3sillydogs,
Thanks for all your efforts thus far. One question unanswered was her religion....I believe she was Methodist.
I would be very grateful if Nookie could assist as I sent most of Saturday again on all the genealogy sites including Family search, but with not help further.
I really don't know where to go from here in trying to obtain birth information pertaining to Ellen Hoy (Curtis), my grandmother.
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Hi,
Thanks, that will give a place to start.
I have also asked a mod to move this to the South African board as your research seems to be centred there at the moment. I'm sure that will get the really clever sleuths on it.
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Thanks a million, I will await a reply from your 'clever sleuths' re her birth place and certificate.
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Hello, I am still trying to obtain information and confirmation of the birth place of my grandmother.
Have spent the past few days further investigating but no additional information as yet.
Would appreciate any assistance.
Thank you
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I think we have exhausted all records online,and it may be a question of waiting till more are added.
As 3sillydogs said on 24th march,the online records only go up to 1960.
Maybe you could ask around in the family and see if anyone knows anything else about the uncle who lived/died in Pietermaritzberg.
Or perhaps you could approach the authorities and see if you can find out when/where she died,as that might give more clues to her birth date and parents names.John David Hoy died in 1965,and she was still alive at that time.
Carol
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Hi Carol,
Thank you for your prompt reply. I have tried to obtain information on my Granmother's brother John Curtis who lived in Pietermartizburg but, at this stage I have also exhausted my avenues.
I also know she died in Pietermartizberg but dont know the date. Have contacted Doves funeral sevices but their records dont go back that far.
Many thanks again anyway.....good evening
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I haven't had a chance to look at the registers as yet. :-\ But I haven't forgotten.
You can also try the South African Genealogy group on Facebook. They often get good results. Post your query on their page. There may be living relatives that can fill in the gaps for you.
Unfortunately South African research can be quite frustrating, but don't give up. ;) ;)
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Name- John David and Ellen Elizabeth Hoy
[Ellen Elizabeth Curtis]
Gender: Female
Record Year: 1931
Residence Place: Krugersdorp, Transvaal, South Africa
Address 1: 60 Blommestein Street,
Address 2: District Township
Trade, Profession, or Occupation: Housewife
Record Source: 1931 Krugersdorp Voters List
Repository: Pretoria Archives
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Hi 3sillydogs,
Good to hear from you again and just luv your profile picture. We are crazy about dogs (Daxies in particular)
I certainly wont give up but, whew, just haven't seemed to break through with my Grandmother as yet.....and so frustrating to establish whether born in SA or UK. etc.
Thank you for your ongoing assistance thus far.................
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Thank you for that information relating to their residing in Krugersdorp. I am aware that my father lived at that address.
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Thank you for that information relating to their residing in Krugersdorp. I am aware that my father lived at that address.
It's the only bit of online info you get if you enter Ellen Hoy into Ancestry!
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She seems to use the name Ellen, and yet on her husband's estate notice it states her name as Eileen as the surviving spouse.
That file can be ordered if you wish to do so. There is a document ordering service through www.eggsa.org and they are very reasonable. If you order the Death Notice and it is properly filled in it can give you all sorts of information. It should contain parents names (in this case her husband's), spouse, place of marriage, place of death, residence at time of death and any children of the marriage or if no children, siblings. Some even contain the spouses of children/siblings and if really lucky grandchildren.
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I have just recieved further information from a cousin in Australia which might be of some assistance............
My father's father (John David Hoy) had another son with an English lady, also named John Hoy who became a film star in England after WW2.
My grandfather had also been awarded a very special medal durin the last war...........but no further information in this regard.
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This may give you some information related to John, the film star.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0398323/
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Thank you .......very interesting.
Will continue to try and obtain her birth information. Any further help greatly appreciated.
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I would recommend that you obtain a copy of John David's Estate papers from 1965 - after all he is your grandfather, and not a distant relation. :) It could be money well-invested ;)
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I will certainly do so. Could you direct me in the right direction as to where to obtain this document please?
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Aarghhhh! Hopefully 3SD will see this, and respond. I'm in the UK, 3SD is in South Africa ;)
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Thank you bumbleB...............hopefully I will hear from 3SD..................
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Posted in previous thread: www.eggsa.org they do it and it will be cheaper than hiring a researcher to do it. They can be pricey down this end of the world. When you go to the site you will see a link on the Home Page, just follow the instructions. I do suggest you just copy and paste the one I posted earlier on the thread giving the information. Just be sure to tell them what you are looking for some of those files can run to many pages. You would need the Death Notice and if there is a Will. I wouldn't worry about anything else.
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Will try this avenue....thanks SO much for all your help
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You're welcome, will have a look at the registers, just need to get a couple of things off my plate ;D ;D
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I am so grateful......will await your reply.
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Your grandfather was previously married to a Thelma Helen Tuson, who then, I think, went on to marry a Rogers. She divorced him in 1921. Their son was John Eric Hoy, and it appears he married a Dorothy Carol Arnold McCartney and lived in Australia.
Have you ordered the estate file for your grandfather from eggsa yet? It would give an indication of whether Eileen/Ellen was still alive in 1965.
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Sorry that was badly phrased :( Thelma divorced John in 1921.
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Hi there
John David Hoy died in South Africa in 1965.
DEPOT TAB
SOURCE MHG
TYPE LEER
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 6427/1965
PART 1
DESCRIPTION HOY, JOHN DAVID.
STARTING 19650000
ENDING 19650000
REMARKS SURVIVING SPOUSE EILEEN ELIZABETH HOY (BORN CURTIS).
Unfortunately what is online only goes as far as 1960 so can't get a look at the estate file.
Nookie- we do know that she was still alive in 1965 from the above info that 3SD found a few days ago.
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I saw that, but by the time I had scrolled down I had forgotten it already. Sometimes I amaze myself with my own stupidity. ::)
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I saw that, but by the time I had scrolled down I had forgotten it already. Sometimes I amaze myself with my own stupidity. ::)
Age,or insanity?
;D ;D ;D
PS I suffer from both 8)
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You're all in good company ;D ;D ;D
Hubby died in Transvaal, but Kevin has info that Ellen/Eileen did in PMB, can't find anything in the usual places.
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Good day to you all,
The information regarding my grandfather's marriage to Thelma Tuson is very interesting although that didnt seem to last too long. It is now obvious that this marriage took place in SA aswell and John Eric Hoy (my father's step brother) was born before my father.
The most important and unsolved information relates to Ellen Elisabeth Hoy...where and when she was born, and who were her mother and father. Did they immigrate to SA and from where and when.
Hopefully with all the additional information gathered, we will eventually get answers.
I will attempt to order the estate file for John Hoy, my grandfather from eggsa today.
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Good luck with the estate file - do let us know if it gives any information to help in the search for Ellen Elizabeth and her origins.
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I have just confirmed that Ellen Hoy definately died in Pietermartizburg. Still cant seem to find any record of this, including eggsa.
Have ordered John Hoy Estate file.
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Good, let's hope that the estate file is fruitful.
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If it is filled in correctly you should get quite a bit of useful information. I have seen Death Notices where it gives children's spouses and even goes as far as listing grandchildren. ;)
I haven't found one either, but that may just mean that she died without leaving an estate, most of the files online are estate files.