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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: RodEast on Sunday 26 March 17 09:30 BST (UK)
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Mary Ann Downing was born about 1870 in Liverpool, Lancashire and she married Maurice Savage about November 1891 in Toxteth Park, Liverpool, Lancashire. The 1871 census has her mother, Mary A Downing, listed as 'Head', married and born in St John Newfoundland Canada circa 1844.
Can anyone help with the marriage of the mother Mary A Downing (born 1844) and the ancestors of Maurice Savage (born about August 1870 in Liverpool.
Many thanks
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Sorry there is a typo - The surname is DOWLING not Downing.
Thanks
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Sorry there is a typo - The surname is DOWLING not Downing.
Thanks
You can go back into your original post by clicking on Modify and change the title.
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Hiya Rod - I am in Garston Liverpool...my granddads sister married a Herbert Savage - let me check my tree - back soon
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There are a number of potential Dowling marriages in the timescale/area.
One possibility, is a James Dowling to Mary Ann Galaher in 1865.
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St Matthew, Toxteth Park - 16 November 1891 by Banns
Maurice Savage, 21, bachelor, Fireman. Father: Maurice, deceased
Mary Ann Dowling, 19, spinster. Father: John, deceased
Witnesses: Thomas Barwise, Elizabeth Grey.
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St John the Baptist, Toxteth Park - 27 December 1920 by Banns
John Robert Hicks, 20, bachelor, Boilermaker. Father: James Francis, Boilermaker
Caroline Rose Savage, 19, spinster. Father: Maurice, Motor Driver
Witnesses: Samuel Hicks, Margaret Emson Hicks
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Lancs bmd has James Dowling to Mary Ann Galaher 1865 - at St Peters Church, Liverpool
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Mary Ann Dowling, 19, spinster. Father: John, deceased
A John Dowling with potential spouse a Mary Carroll in Liverpool 1865 or a Mary Ann Callaghan in 1864.
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From GRO facility:
Maurice Savage - born 1870 Liverpool - mmn McDonald
Mary Ann Dowling - born 1872 Birkenhead - mmn Foster (place of birth taken from 1901 census entry)
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From GRO facility:
Maurice Savage - born 1870 Liverpool - mmn McDonald
Mary Ann Dowling - born 1872 Birkenhead - mmn Foster (place of birth taken from 1901 census entry)
Did RodEast choose wrong family in 1871 census then, as that family, with a mother Mary born Canada, has a Mary Ann aged 0, as well as a John aged 1 and a Frances aged 4?
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Ah: there is another Mary Ann Dowling - December quarter 1870 - Liverpool - mmn Murphy :-\
Mary Ann's place of birth on 1911 is Liverpool ! But she is still shown as being 2 years younger than Maurice, as she was in 1901, when her place of birth was Birkenhead.
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Both Maurice and Mary Ann are still alive in 1939 and living in Toxteth Park - 1870 and 1872. :)
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So, potentially a John Dowling (if her father's name on her marriage was correct) married a _______ Murphy or a ________ Foster. I'm not seeing possible marriages at moment (checked Scotland and Ireland too), nor finding Mary Ann in 1881, even trying likely mis-transcriptions.
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I did find a marriage, just using Dowling, Foster 1850-1872, and the only possible was December quarter 1857 - Marylebone - John Dowling and Joyce Foster appear on the same page - FreeBMD
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I did find a marriage, just using Dowling, Foster 1850-1872, and the only possible was December quarter 1857 - Marylebone - John Dowling and Joyce Foster appear on the same page - FreeBMD
Oops, yes, forgot I had noticed that possible one too when I expanded search out of area. Had even tried looking for a Joyce Dowling in Liverpool area at 1881 census, but wasn't seeing one.
Also, a Daniel Dowling born Birkenhead 1871, with mum Foster.
Had wondered about the 'gap' in births, whilst possible, from 1857-1871 if same couple.
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Yes,a bit strange.
A possible for Maurice in 1871 - RG10/3845 folio 20 page 35
7 Alice Street, West Derby
Morris Savage, aged 1 - nephew
But I can't make out who he belongs to, there are a number of "relations" in the household. I can't readily see him on either 1881 or 1891 census.
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There's a Morris Savage, birth 1869, in Price Street, Liverpool at 1891. Occupation sailor. Birthplace, though, is Middlesex.
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Yes,a bit strange.
A possible for Maurice in 1871 - RG10/3845 folio 20 page 35
7 Alice Street, West Derby
Morris Savage, aged 1 - nephew
But I can't make out who he belongs to, there are a number of "relations" in the household. I can't readily see him on either 1881 or 1891 census.
I think he is the son of the Mary Savage, who in turn is sister of Alfred McDonold. There is a possible Mary McDonald to Morris Savage marriage in West Derby in 1866.
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RodEast, do you now think the census details you originally posted could have been for wrong Mary Ann?
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Following your help and the birth dates from the 1939 census there are two births:
Maurice Savage 3rd qtr 1870 Liverpool
Mary Ann Dowling 3rd qtr 1872 Liverpool
and thus it appears that my original thoughts were wrong.
I will order these certificates tomorrow and hopefully they will tie in with the marriage certificate data.
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The marriage between Morris Savage and Mary M McDonald took place at St Thomas, Toxteth Park - LancashireBMD. Images not available on Ancestry for this parish, nor is there an entry on FreeREG. Perhaps someone has access to the parish registers :-\
Added:
They were married by Licence, image available on FindMyPast of the Allegation - Morris is aged 21 and over of Grafton Street, Toxteth Park and is a Mariner. Mary McDonald is also of Grafton Street, Toxteth Park and is a spinster aged 21 and over. For some reason the entry in the register of Marriage Licences says that Morris is from Walton.
Forgot - the date of the Licence is 17 December 1866, and the register says 18 December, so that might be the actual date of marriage.
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Added:
They were married by Licence, image available on FindMyPast of the Allegation - Morris is aged 21 and over of Grafton Street, Toxteth Park and is a Mariner. Mary McDonald is also of Grafton Street, Toxteth Park and is a spinster aged 21 and over. For some reason the entry in the register of Marriage Licences says that Morris is from Walton.
so, this fits with the sailor, born Middlesex, per the 1891 census, except that one is younger, so more likely the son, yet we know he was born in Liverpool.
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Mary McDonald (1845) was the daughter of James McDonald (1806) and Mary Smith (1811) identified by the fact that her and her brother Alfred John appear together on the 1851 census in Toxteth Park Extra Parochial.
Still no luck with Maurice Senior although I assume in 1871 he was at sea at the time of the census.
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There was a c1833/1836 Canadian born Morris Savage listed in British Merchant Seamen records 1853-1857.
Similarly, an 1870 Liverpool born Maurice Savage listed in Merchant Navy crew lists for 1894.
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The Maurice Savage I refer to was born before 1845 and was listed as a mariner on his marriage in 1866
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Many thanks to all who have helped me. I now have the birth certificate for Mary Ann Dowling born 29th August 1872 at 25 St Clement Street, Birkenhead. Her father is John Dowling, Labourer, signed with X and her mother is given as Elizabeth Dowling formerly Foster. This is where I need some more of your good advice as I can't find the marriage of John and Elizabeth nor can I find either of them on the census. Clearly my skills are not good enough.
Any further help much appreciated
RodEast
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Could this be it transcribed as Dooling on Cheshire BMD
John Dooling and Elizabeth Foster 1870 in a Birkenhead Civil Marriage or Register Attended
http://cheshirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
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I think you could very well be right.
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Thanks for everything. I have tried all the permutations I can think of but cannot find any trace of this family either before or after the birth of Mary Ann until after her marriage to Maurice Savage. It looks like I might have to give in now.
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I've had a look round and I can't see them either. ???
Searching the Gro index there are two more births for Dowling with mmn Foster.
Daniel Dowling Sept Qtr 1871, someone mentioned him in an earlier post about this family, and an Elizabeth Dowling March Qtr 1876, there is also a death for an Elizabeth the same year aged 9 but that could be 9mnths rather than years. So did John Dowling die between the birth of Elizabeth in 1876 and Mary Ann's marriage in 1891? I can't see any suitable death record on the Cheshire or Lancashire bmds
I have found on the 1871 census a John and Elizabeth Dooling both born Ireland and residing in Birkenhead.
John is a labourer aged 28 and Elizabeth is 24. Looking at the image it could possibly be Dowling ::)
RG10 Piece 3746 Folio 134 Page 27
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I don't want to add anymore confusion to this but I think I'm going to anyway ;D ;D
One of the witnesses at Mary Ann Dowling's marriage was Elizabeth Grey.
Is it just coincidence then that on the 1891 census Elizabeth born Ireland aged 43 has a son Daniel b1872 and a daughter Mary Ann b1873 in Birkenhead.
The ages are out by a couple of years on all of them but as Mary Ann didn't marry until Nov 1891 could it possibly be the same family?
I can't see a birth reg on the GRO for either a Daniel or Mary Ann Grey/Gray born Birkenhead. ???
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Do you think she may have re-married to a Grey/Gray after John's death? However, I have had no luck finding John Dowling's death prior to Mary Ann's marriage.
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I think anything is possible with this one ???
I'm not sure that I'm correct with any of the records I've posted, they just seem to connect.
Both the !891 and 1901 census look suspect to me with the Ansborough brothers being step son on one and foster sons on the other one and then 1901 shows a daughter Caroline but I don't think she is Elizabeth's daughter ::)
It's possible that John may not have died but for some reason left the family home in which case Elizabeth couldn't have remarried and I can't see any other marriage for her. ???
Perhaps you could try tracing Daniel after 1891 see if you can find more about him.
If the 1880 marriage for Dooling is correct then the marriage cert might throw some light on it.