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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: Liviani on Tuesday 28 March 17 14:35 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Got a few ancestors with the name of 'Small'. Most of these lived and worked in the following parishes in Angus; Glenisla, Airlie, Glamis and eventually the town of Forfar from the period 1800 - 1907.
On trying to go further back in the records I'm coming across more Smalls (particularly the name Leonard Small which features heavily in my tree) in Perthshire. Upon googling Perthshire and Angus I noticed that the boundaries often changed previous to 1890. The locations of many of my Smalls in Angus (Forfarshire) were relatively close to what is now Perthshire. Particularly the locations of them in Glenisla. So I'm a bit unclear where to go from here due to the uncertainty of Parish boundaries and if I have the right branch of Smalls. I know there was a more famous branch of Smalls in Perthshire that owned land in the 1700s. Unclear if my Smalls are connected at this stage as I can't seem to get back far enough at the moment.
Does anyone have any maps or records that relate to the Parish boundaries? Or was it a case of them being quite unclear in rural locations at this time? I'm coming across a few Leonard Smalls that were born in Kirkmichael and some in Moulin Parish.
In particular looking for Leonard Small's father. Leonard Small married an Isabella Hardy in Airlie in 1824. He is potentially the same Leonard Small that married a Jannet McKenzie in 1808 in Glenisla. I notice that the Glenisla (Angus) and Kirkmichael Parishes bordered each other.
Thanks all.
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Update:
So I've had a look on SP with all of the previous information I have and found that my 4x Great-Grandfather is a Leonard Small baptised 30/06/1773 to a Patrick Small and a Margaret Robertson in Moulin Parish.
I can't quite make out the place name in this parish however. Can anyone work this out perhaps ???
(http://i68.tinypic.com/eqb66o.png)
Something like Farvie or Jarvie ???
Disregard much of my previous post as I've managed to find more info out about Leonard and Patrick.
From what I can fine on SP here are some of the other children Patrick and Margaret had, if anyone is looking into this family at all.
There are 2 I am unsure about that I will add at the end.
Anne b. 1771 Moulin
Leonard b. 1773 Moulin (my direct ancestor)
Alexander b. 1775 Moulin
See below
See below
Charles b. 1780 Moulin
Patrick b. 1782 registered in both Kirkmichael and Moulin
The two in question are;
Girsael b. 3rd May 1777 to Patrick Small and a Robertson in Moulin.
John b. 25th December 1777 to Patrick Small and Elspeth Robertson in Kirkmichael.
I don't believe the names Elspeth and Margaret are interchangeable? Making John unrelated. Unsure at this point.
Also Girsael is a very odd name. No idea if it's male of female.
Thanks. :)
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Hi Liviani,
Is it possible you can post another snippet (larger) of a different part of the doc. for letter formation comparison please?
Annie
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I wonder if it's Tarvie?
Annie
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Hmm,
Found a map with a Tarvie in Moulin but looks as though it wouldn't have been inhabited....middle of nowhere ::)
http://ncap.org.uk/frame/8-1-2-2-38-227
Annie
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Hi Liviani,
Is it possible you can post another snippet (larger) of a different part of the doc. for letter formation comparison please?
Annie
Sorry, will sort out a larger snippet no problem now.
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(http://i67.tinypic.com/1zg6wwj.png)
Here is a snippet of the document. It's so cramped and messy I have to say!
I've noticed a similar place near the top right mentioned. There are a few places near Pitlochry that I see, Edradour etc.
I'll investigate Tarvie on old maps and see if there were once more bulidings around. I have access to some older maps through an educational account, but the years are quite restrictive. I think that place mentioned at the top is potentially the same one though.
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(http://i65.tinypic.com/a1e0p.png)
Snippet from a map from 1860, was the earliest I could get.
There a few buildings dotted around then with Tarvie there also. So it probably is that going by the writing.
Honestly though, my heart has been in my mouth because this area is SO close to Enochdhu, Kindrogan and Dirnanean House.
What are the chances... ? Am I related to the Smalls of Dirnanean. ???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirnanean_House
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I think Rosinish was spot on with Tarvie.
The attached 1823 map (http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400161) shows a property by this name some few miles to the NE of Moulin. Follow the road from Moulin to the first junction and you will find Tarvie at the junction, with Tarvie Mill further to the east.
On more modern maps, Tarvie is shown as being almost equidistant between Moulin and Kirkmichael whilst travelling along the road between these villages.
Regards
Istrice
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I'm hopeless with maps!
Anyway, found this, not sure if it's the correct area?
http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/catalogue_item/john-manning-collection/estate-houses/tarvie-house
Can't find much with regards to Tarvie itself.
Annie
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I'm hopeless with maps!
Anyway, found this, not sure if it's the correct area?
http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/catalogue_item/john-manning-collection/estate-houses/tarvie-house
Can't find much with regards to Tarvie itself.
Annie
Thanks for this. Well here was me thinking it was a farm or something... :o
I'm going to have to do a lot of research on Patrick's other children I think and Margaret Robertson as well. Although Margaret Robertson would be an extremely common name. Patrick Small, not so much. There is mention of Robertson's and the Smalls around the internet but having said that Robertson could be anyone really.
Thank you!
Jill
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Liviani,
"What are the chances... ? Am I related to the Smalls of Dirnanean"
There's a good chance.
Istrice,
Thanks for help with that good map!
I think we're on the right track?
It's a tricky part of Perthshire as all the areas are in the country rather than towns & flow into one another making it difficult to work out which is where ;D
Annie
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"Also Girsael is a very odd name. No idea if it's male of female."
This *might* be a variation on Grisel, Grizel, or Grizell, (etc)
If it is, it's a female name which is, I believe, derived from Griselda
I have a few of these names in my Scottish lines
Alex
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Well, I did not expect this at all really. Most of my ancestors have been (sorry to say) doing rather mundane farm work on both my mother and father's sides.
Trying not to get ahead of myself here though.
It appears that Tarvie House is no longer there, it appears to be some sort of monstrosity there now.
No offence to the owners if they are on this board, but dear lord that is not good. ;D
http://hudsonarchitects.co.uk/our-work/tarvie-house
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"Also Girsael is a very odd name. No idea if it's male of female."
This *might* be a variation on Grisel, Grizel, or Grizell, (etc)
If it is, it's a female name which is, I believe, derived from Griselda
I have a few of these names in my Scottish lines
Alex
Ahha! learn something new every day. Thank you for this.
Jill
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http://hudsonarchitects.co.uk/our-work/tarvie-house
Oh dear :(
I'm not sure if it's privately owned or Scottish Heritage or one of those type of groups?
An interesting read but I can't find much substantial in the way of history...
http://www.moulinhotel.co.uk/inn/village.html
This one, 2nd entry..
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/PERTHSHIRE/2001-05/0990897575
Annie
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Mention of surnames Robertson & Small, might be of interest?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jty/
You need to scroll down.
Annie
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http://hudsonarchitects.co.uk/our-work/tarvie-house
Oh dear :(
I'm not sure if it's privately owned or Scottish Heritage or one of those type of groups?
An interesting read but I can't find much substantial in the way of history...
http://www.moulinhotel.co.uk/inn/village.html
This one, 2nd entry..
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/PERTHSHIRE/2001-05/0990897575
Annie
This is very interesting. I love reading about where my ancestors lived. I've read through some of the statistical accounts for other areas where my ancestors are from etc. Always very interesting.
Thank you for this!
Mention of surnames Robertson & Small, might be of interest?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jty/
You need to scroll down.
Annie
"John Gardner, son of James Gardner (deceased) and Margaret Small or Gardner, Address: Peattie, Kettins, Forfarshire [Angus]. Entry relating to the crime of rape, assault and attempt to rape, incest. Date of trial: 6 May 1811, Verdict: Guilty, Verdict Comments: Not a fit object for punishment, Sentence: Imprisonment - life, until safe custody, Note: Allegedly remitted to the High Court of Justiciary at Edinburgh to be heard on 27 May 1811 but was, in fact, continued at Perth on 7 October 1811"
:o :o :o :o
Wonder where Margaret Small falls (if anywhere) into the tree. Will definitely investigate this, see if she is a sibling of Leonard or Patrick. Incest though? :o :o
What does "life until safe custoy" mean? Well the "until safe" part at least? And "not a fit object for punishment"? Ill health? Mentally ill?
Rather shocking. I hope he's not related anyway! ;D
Very interesting nonetheless.
Jill
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Also found this.
http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD16%2f20%2f22&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=small+airlie&ko=a&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y
Had a few Smalls in my tree in Airlie, Angus around Kirriemuir so potentially somewhere else to go with this. The good thing about a family like this is that there are SO many records available for different people.
Thing is the Smalls I know about in Airlie are much later than 1611. However we know that the Smalls were landowners so I'd imagine a connection anyway with this.
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What does "life until safe custoy" mean? Well the "until safe" part at least? And "not a fit object for punishment"? Ill health? Mentally ill?
I was being discreet ::)
I think "life until safe custody" may mean until they think he's okay for parole & of no harm to anyone while out on parole?
Someone with more knowledge will put us right on that though.
I was actually trying to find something in the way of historics when I found that :D
Annie
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What does "life until safe custoy" mean? Well the "until safe" part at least? And "not a fit object for punishment"? Ill health? Mentally ill?
I was being discreet ::)
I think "life until safe custody" may mean until they think he's okay for parole & of no harm to anyone while out on parole?
Someone with more knowledge will put us right on that though.
I was actually trying to find something in the way of historics when I found that :D
Annie
I tend to just say things as I find them. ;D
That's pretty shocking though, never encountered anything untoward in my tree before now. I have a feeling this guy is probably connected somewhere along the line. I will post if I see anything when I next sit down to check SP or elsewhere.
I think you're probably right with the parole thing though, I'll see what else I can find.
This is getting better by the minute.
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These records look to have been done by OCR (Optical Character Recognition)?
"Contract of sale between James, Lord Ogiluy, (Ogilvy) and James, Master of Ogiluy,(Ogilvy) on the one part and William Small, brother to Patrick Small, portioner of Cwpargrainge, (Cupargrainge) on the other part whereby said Lord dispones to said William 6 acres of land of the burgh in barony of Kethik (?) maybe Kettins? lying in the Baitschailhauche (?) of Cwpar. (Cupar) Keremuir, (Kirriemuir) Airlie"
Interesting though.
It's great when you find these things, means everything regardless of what it is we find as it starts to paint a picture to connect people with their lives.
That's why people think I'm boring or bored is what I should say!! ;D
Annie
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The National Library of Scotland has maps showing parishes:
http://maps.nls.uk/os/one-inch-2nd-colour/index.html (http://maps.nls.uk/os/one-inch-2nd-colour/index.html)
Tarvie in Moulin parish is on sheet 55.
Gazetteer for Scotland has some info about it
http://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst1133.html (http://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst1133.html)
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Good links Isabel,
Those maps on National Library are brill.
Annie
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These records look to have been done by OCR (Optical Character Recognition)?
"Contract of sale between James, Lord Ogiluy, (Ogilvy) and James, Master of Ogiluy,(Ogilvy) on the one part and William Small, brother to Patrick Small, portioner of Cwpargrainge, (Cupargrainge) on the other part whereby said Lord dispones to said William 6 acres of land of the burgh in barony of Kethik (?) maybe Kettins? lying in the Baitschailhauche (?) of Cwpar. (Cupar) Keremuir, (Kirriemuir) Airlie"
Interesting though.
It's great when you find these things, means everything regardless of what it is we find as it starts to paint a picture to connect people with their lives.
That's why people think I'm boring or bored is what I should say!! ;D
Annie
Seems like you're right with the OCR otherwise it's terrible spelling back then. Very very interesting. I can see myself engrossed in all of this for days to come now. I'm not going to get anything done! :o
Thanks for all these wonderful links and finds Annie. Fantastic.
Jill
The National Library of Scotland has maps showing parishes:
http://maps.nls.uk/os/one-inch-2nd-colour/index.html (http://maps.nls.uk/os/one-inch-2nd-colour/index.html)
Tarvie in Moulin parish is on sheet 55.
Gazetteer for Scotland has some info about it
http://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst1133.html (http://www.scottish-places.info/towns/townfirst1133.html)
These maps are fantastic. Very very interesting. Will be saving these to have a look.
Thank you!
Jill.
That site you found is an absolute GEM Annie! It's about the history of the area, various photographs of people (including the Smalls), the landscape etc. And there is even a family Scrapbook of the Smalls, it's a fantastic find. There is something about the Robertsons also!
Here are links to various relevant sections. Brilliant!
http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/tag/dirnanean
http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/tag/tarvie
http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/tag/kindrogan
I've noticed when casually browsing SP that a few generations of Smalls in the area have married a Robertson lady.
This is a description of the scrapbook;
This scrapbook contains various articles on people from the Perthshire area, including Dirnanean and Kindrogan, but mainly based around Dirnanean and Kindrogan. It belonged to Johan Small Turnbull. She was a daughter of Patrick Small and Amelia Rattray, and the sister of James Small, Laird of Dirnanean.
This is a golden find for me! Very very happy.
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Sorry, didn't notice your edit ;)
Glad it's of great interest.
Will keep you busy for a while :P
Annie
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"I've found an absolute gem of a site. It's about the history of the area, various photographs of people (including the Smalls), the landscape etc. And there is even a family Scrapbook of the Smalls
, it's a fantastic find. There is something about the Robertsons also!"
Please share link, sounds a great find!
Annie
I had to edit the post to correct my mistake. It was actually on the same site that you linked earlier regarding Tarvie House. I had totally forgotten where it had come from, sorry. I've corrected it now. The links should be there undernearth.
Here is a link to the Scrapbook;
http://www.mountblairarchive.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Small-Scrapbook-Scan.pdf
Here is the starting website;
http://www.mountblairarchive.org
It's brilliant. Thank you!
Also, I want to say that in this scrapbook there are snippets of Smalls mentioned in Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Arbroath and one old lady died in Bervie. So, obviously they did spread out a bit so if anyone has any SMALLS in these areas, they could be distant relatives, otherwise why did the daughter of Amelia Rattray and Patrick Small include them. Something to ponder certainly!
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I think Rosinish was spot on with Tarvie.
The attached 1823 map (http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400161) shows a property by this name some few miles to the NE of Moulin. Follow the road from Moulin to the first junction and you will find Tarvie at the junction, with Tarvie Mill further to the east.
On more modern maps, Tarvie is shown as being almost equidistant between Moulin and Kirkmichael whilst travelling along the road between these villages.
Regards
Istrice
Sorry, I've just noticed this post. I must've got absorbed in so much earlier.
This map is also fantastic. Clearly shows the borders of the parishes that the Smalls lived in, and explains why the parishes often changed with births and marriages etc. Absolutely spot on for me.
Thank you!
Jill
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If I ever meet anyone with the surname Small I will direct them to you :D
Talk about a 'Small' world ;D
Annie
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If I ever meet anyone with the surname Small I will direct them to you :D
Talk about a 'Small' world ;D
Annie
A few days ago before I knew all of this I said something similar to someone who had another Small in their tree in Forfar! ;D ;D
Too many pun opportunities with this name. Because my grandfather was illegitimate no one knew much about his father (turned out to be born Charles Small). We all thought we were McKenzie's (Charles' step-father's name).. oh how the tides have turned. ;D
Also;
Wiki page re; Dr Alexander Small 1710 - 1794. He ended up a doctor in London and he died in Ware, Hertfordshire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Small
So if people are looking for Smalls down south this is something to consider.
Jill
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More common than you would have thought.
Just to keep in your reserves...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ju7/
Annie
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Amendment for Reply #21
"burgh in barony of Kethik lying in the Baitschailhauche" = Keithick
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ju9/
Can't get the 'Baitschailhauche' ::)
Annie
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Amendment for Reply #21
"burgh in barony of Kethik lying in the Baitschailhauche" = Keithick
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ju9/
Can't get the 'Baitschailhauche' ::)
Annie
Could it be "........ School House?"
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These records look to have been done by OCR (Optical Character Recognition)?
"Contract of sale between James, Lord Ogiluy, (Ogilvy) and James, Master of Ogiluy,(Ogilvy) on the one part and William Small, brother to Patrick Small, portioner of Cwpargrainge, (Cupargrainge) on the other part whereby said Lord dispones to said William 6 acres of land of the burgh in barony of Kethik (?) maybe Kettins? lying in the Baitschailhauche (?) of Cwpar. (Cupar) Keremuir, (Kirriemuir) Airlie"
Coupar Grange is a farm near Coupar Angus, it's also near Bendochy House? Whether or not that is 'Baitschailhauche' or not is another matter... ;D
It's also not particularly close to Kirriemuir ???
Coupar Grange House? http://search.savills.com/property-detail/gbedrseds160001#/r/detail/GBEDRSEDS160001
(ooooerrr, very fancy)
(https://thumb.ibb.co/bB1PWF/Capture3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bB1PWF)
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Not sure if this would shed any light, but there's more info out there on the Smalls in Bendochy and Coupar Grange here.
Fasti ecclesiae scoticanae -
(https://thumb.ibb.co/hpc1dv/Capture4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hpc1dv)
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'lying in the Baitschailhauche' makes it more difficult to understand?
Fasti ecclesiae scoticanae is too small to read.
Annie
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'lying in the Baitschailhauche' makes it more difficult to understand?
Fasti ecclesiae scoticanae is too small to read.
Annie
Hmm, it's looking like one of those unsolvable ones. ???
The only thing that makes sense is something along the lines of "lying in the, Parish/barony/lands of...."
How frustrating.
Yeah, the FES is very small. I had to use zoom to read it.
Jill
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It's pertaining to William Small so wherever he was?
May find him on scotlandsplaces in their tax rolls or similar?
Annie
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It's pertaining to William Small so wherever he was?
May find him on scotlandsplaces in their tax rolls or similar?
Annie
Will do this now, will post if I find anything.
Jill
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Not had much luck. Will have to search later on today as need to go out for a while.
Not accustomed to searching Scotland's Places yet to narrow down with names and the area in question. I will work it out though! :)
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Found something else.
I came across a document whilst searching Scotland's Places. I noticed that the 1841 census which has 15 year old Leonard and his father Leonard Small living at Blackhill, Airlie fell under the lands of Robert Clerk Rattray. Coupar Feu also falls under this.
There is a close link between the Smalls and the Rattrays and I'm wondering if this is why a few Smalls have been found at these locations?
Very interesting find I think.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/nzy8rF/Blackhills.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nzy8rF)
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On FindMyPast Newspaper search there is a mention in the Caledonian Mercury of 15 Nov 1744 of some sort of legal action "depending before the Lords of Session, at the instance of Leonard Small in Tarvie, against Spalding of Assintully and his Creditors". Assintully is modern day Ashintully.
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On FindMyPast Newspaper search there is a mention in the Caledonian Mercury of 15 Nov 1744 of some sort of legal action "depending before the Lords of Session, at the instance of Leonard Small in Tarvie, against Spalding of Assintully and his Creditors". Assintully is modern day Ashintully.
Interesting. Looks like it's some sort of financial debt owed perhaps?
A Leonard Small and Ann(e) Robertson had 2 children in Moulin around this time. I will assume it's the same Leonard Small here.
Details of the children they had;
Christian Small b. 28/10/1728 Kirkmichael :o Twins!
Anna Small b. 28/10/1728 Kirkmichael
Alexander Small b. 09/03/1730 Kirkmichael
Patrick Small b. 28/07/1737 Moulin
Leonard Small b. 02/07/1744 Moulin
Leonard Small and an Anna Robertson married in Moulin on 21/03/1727.
Anna must've come from Moulin also as only one entry came up for this marriage for the entirety of Scotland.
I've noticed a very hefty amount of different Small men marrying a Robertson lady in Moulin and Kirkmichael. Would this be some sort of agreement between the families perhaps?
Also I notice the latter two children born above were born in Moulin in comparison to Kirkmichael, so they either moved or the boundaries had changed. Having looked at older maps the areas in which my Smalls lived were extremely close to parish borders. So this could be a redefining of those perhaps between 1730 and 1737?
Interestingly Leonard and Ann(e)(a) didn't have any children after 1744 and this article was posted in November 1744. Potentially some financial reason there with that decision ??? ???
Jill
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Not sure about an agreement re marrying same surnames.
In those days the population was so much less & in rural places it was likely a lot of people married same surnames given large families within those areas?
I have noticed this in Uist, many of same surnames marrying.
I also came across the name Leonard Robertson last night (a few) so the name is in both surnames
This is one...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01juk/
Annie
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A Leonard Small and Ann(e) Robertson had 2 children in Moulin around this time. I will assume it's the same Leonard Small here.
Details of the children they had;
Christian Small b. 28/10/1728 Kirkmichael :o Twins!
Anna Small b. 28/10/1728 Kirkmichael
Alexander Small b. 09/03/1730 Kirkmichael
Patrick Small b. 28/07/1737 Moulin
Leonard Small b. 02/07/1744 Moulin
Leonard Small and an Anna Robertson married in Moulin on 21/03/1727.
Interestingly Leonard and Ann(e)(a) didn't have any children after 1744 and this article was posted in November 1744. Potentially some financial reason there with that decision ??? ???
Hmm,
That may be purely coincidence given the births were over a period of 17 yrs & depending on their ages at time of marriage?
Annie
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A Leonard Small and Ann(e) Robertson had 2 children in Moulin around this time. I will assume it's the same Leonard Small here.
Details of the children they had;
Christian Small b. 28/10/1728 Kirkmichael :o Twins!
Anna Small b. 28/10/1728 Kirkmichael
Alexander Small b. 09/03/1730 Kirkmichael
Patrick Small b. 28/07/1737 Moulin
Leonard Small b. 02/07/1744 Moulin
Leonard Small and an Anna Robertson married in Moulin on 21/03/1727.
Interestingly Leonard and Ann(e)(a) didn't have any children after 1744 and this article was posted in November 1744. Potentially some financial reason there with that decision ??? ???
Hmm,
That may be purely coincidence given the births were over a period of 17 yrs & depending on their ages at time of marriage?
Annie
Very true, didn't think to calculate the timespan involved.
I think certainly the first birth coincides with being a year after marriage and it coming up with the correct names. This is all without confirmation due to lack of SP credits until next Friday though.
Searched all births in Perthshire on SP up until 1760 with surname Small and parent's name inserted was Leonard. The only other couples with a Leonard Small appearing are;
Leonard & Elspit McDonald (they had a child Donald 1727 in Kirkmichael) and Leonard Small & Ann Stewart.
Leonard and Ann Stewart did have a child in 1733 called Beatrix in Moulin but they don't appear again in my search up till 1760. Leonard and Elspit also appear only once.
It could possibly be any of them, but I feel that Leonard with Ann Robertson is the same Leonard in Tarvie mentioned in the newspaper report in 1744. I'd need to access the record of the birth in 1744 to see if it does mention Tarvie again to confirm, but that will happen next week. Until then I'll have to settle for my unconfirmed feeling.
Jill
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Another reason for my 'hunch' is that if they used conventional naming patterns, Leonard jr was the third son born which matches tradition of naming the third son after the father. But that would be speculation really.
I believe that 'Christian' was actually an older version of 'Christina' so the 2 first borns (the twins) would be female.
Jill
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I would agree to christian most likely being female.
Did you read my Reply #43?
Annie
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I would agree to christian most likely being female.
Did you read my Reply #43?
Annie
Oops, silly me, yes I did read it and was set to reply but had completely forgotten to do so. :o
It seems that Robertson and Rattray appear a few times, but that could just be coincidence as you say. The names seem quite common in these parishes and later spreading further out into Angus, Dundee etc.
The reason I thought of 'arranged' marriages was that these families appeared to have quite a comfortable lifestyle compared to the majority. I saw a figure in the Small scrapbook about money left in an estate (http://www.mountblairarchive.org/content/the_written_word/people/small-family-scrapbook ) and converted it to today's money and saw it was about £1 million (maybe more) :o
Not sure if things were different in societies like these at that time. Just a thought. ???
Yeah, it seems the name Leonard does crop up quite a bit in the Smalls and Robertsons in the area. Certainly up until my 3x Great Grandfather Leonard Small the name was still being passed on.
At a bit of a frustrating point trying to work out my last confirmed ancestor's father (Patrick Small's father mentioned in the baptism record of Leonard born 1773).
So many Patrick's flying around then. ;D
Jill
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The further back the harder it is to prove.
I have plenty of them, people I think to be related but nothing to join the dots with & yes it's very frustrating.
http://www.scotclans.com/scottish-clans/clan-robertson/
For Small, click on Murray (in blue type)
http://www.scotclans.com/scottish-clans/whats-my-clan/clan-search-result/?search=small
Annie
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Amendment for Reply #21
"burgh in barony of Kethik lying in the Baitschailhauche" = Keithick
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ju9/
Can't get the 'Baitschailhauche' ::)
Annie
Been on Scotlands places and browsing the Coupar section. Noticed there was a house called Ballinsho/Balinsho/Ballinshoes in the tax rolls mentioned a few times. Mentioned as Ballinshoes House also. And it's lands.
It's not too far from where we were looking at the other day re William Small.
Perhaps it's this?
Thank you for the links Annie, much appreciated and very interesting.
Yeah these dead ends are frustrating for me, I wish there was a way of proving a close link between my Smalls and the Smalls of Dinanern only a few miles away.
Jill
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Found out a little bit more about Tarvie Lodge/Tarvie House. Attached an image of an historical environment record of the estate. It shows this info about what was contained on the estate. The info is quite minimal but it gives a general idea.
"Site Type: FARMSTEAD, SHEEP FOLD, LIME KILN, HEAD DYKE, HUNTING LODGE
Council: Perth and Kinross"
Taken from pastmap
(https://thumb.ibb.co/g7bJbF/tarvie.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7bJbF)
Found a more up to date architect's site regarding demolishing the shooting lodge and building a new house over it. It was apparently completed in 2015.
Slightly better than the other design was, but still, in my opinion, doesn't suit the surroundings.
http://cameronwebster.com/project/tarvie-shooting-lodge/
There is some slight background information here on Tarvie Lodge, but not much.
Now I'm not sure when the original Tarvie Lodge was built but it doesn't "seem" from the time Leonard Small and Margaret Robertson had my 4x great grandfather, Leonard there (1773). It seems too Victorian. Can't seem to find much about the house anywhere online except for the odd picture here and there.
Here is another picture of what Tarvie Lodge was like; http://tour-scotland-photographs.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/old-photograph-tarvie-lodge-enochdhu.html
Anyone know anything about buildings to know when it was roughly built ???
I have a birth record for one of Leonard's (b.1773) siblings. Anne Small b.1771. The residence was stated as Tarvie then.
This is something I came across regarding one of Leonard's brother's -
A Patrick Peter Small b.1782
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=48623544
Can't seem to find anything on SP regarding his marriage mentioned in that link to Isobell Rattray (there's that Rattray name again!).
However I've found a birth for an Isabella Rattray Small b. 7th February 1822 in Longforgan, parents stated as Peter Small and Isobell Rattray. Whether or not Peter is Patrick ???
I'm a bit dubious about Patrick Peter due to finding this on ancestry. Take much of it with a grain of salt really and just use it as a base to start searching on SP and/or other sites. However it has been useful in many ways.
Now on the ongoing quest to finding a potential link to The Smalls of Dirnanean. I have a feeling this will all prove fruitless due to the lack of records starting at Patrick Small b.1750 and going back from there.
Now, what do we know?
- My 4x Great-Grandfather Leonard was born at Tarvie, Moulin to Patrick Small and Margaret Robertson.
Tarvie is only a small distance from Dirnanean, Straloch and Kindrogan. Straloch is mentioned on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Small_(Scottish_factor) "James Small was a member of the Smalls of Dirnanean and the Robertsons of Straloch"
Tarvie could be Robertson lands? ??? See the distance in the image below. Basically neighbours.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/nywOAa/Capture.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nywOAa)
A Patrick William Small lived in Glenisla in the 1800s with his wife Amelia Rattray. He was a local landowner. There was a monument built in Glenisla to commemorate him. See Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkton_of_Glenisla Also Find a grave: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=76771964
In the newspaper clippings attached to the find a grave entry above it mentions that there are various branches of Smalls throughout Perthshire.
This is Patrick William Small's son James, who also has a memorial; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Small_(Scottish_laird)
Around 1808 I believe my 4x gt-grandfather Leonard to be living in Glenisla. He married a Jannet McKenzie in 1808 before marrying my 4x gt-grandmother. Jannet must have died before this. Can't find any record of her death though.
Findlay Small b.1809 was Leonard and Jannet's first child. He was born in Glenisla.
Margaret Small b. 1811 was born in Glenisla also. This was Jannet's last child. Leonard doesn't have another child until 1827, this time Airlie, Angus. So he has moved after I presume Jannet died.
What does this all tell me? Nothing concrete that's for sure. But, given the time period and locations I feel there just HAS to be a link to Dirnanean somewhere. Finding that link though, impossible. It must be further back.
Tarvie, Straloch, Glenisla, Moulin, Kirkmichael, The name Patrick occurring in my branch repeatedly, marrying Robertsons and Rattrays. The signs all point there. ???
Perhaps I'm reaching, but this is just a feeling, and and a pretty strong one.
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Peter/Patrick are sometimes used interchangeably in old records.
As regards the age of the former house at Tarvie, many seemingly Victorian houses have older origins and the core of that house may have been much older. No guarantee it was the same house, but Perth & Kinross Council Archives cat. mentions Gilbert Steuart of Tarvie (1691) and Donald Gray in Tarvie (1761).
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Peter/Patrick are sometimes used interchangeably in old records.
As regards the age of the former house at Tarvie, many seemingly Victorian houses have older origins and the core of that house may have been much older. No guarantee it was the same house, but Perth & Kinross Council Archives cat. mentions Gilbert Steuart of Tarvie (1691) and Donald Gray in Tarvie (1761).
Thanks for this info. Forgot to think about various additions and extensions that would've been carried out. Does anyone know of a source that would potentially have records of anything like this?
NRS perhaps? Going to guess there wasn't anything like "planning permission" back then and it was just a case of build if you want to? But still, perhaps there's something somewhere?
Very interesting, thank you. I have seen Steuarts/Stewarts and Grays mentioned in Tarvie in previous times also.
I've also discovered the term "township" mentioned on the map from pastmap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_(Scotland)
Also, http://pastmap.org.uk/ I've found to be an incredibly useful resource for finding places that may no longer exist or to get an idea of distance between places back then. Proximity does give a general feel to relations in the area I think.
I highly recommend using pastmap to fill in any gaps that you can't via Scotland's Places or similar.
Make sure in layers in the right hand side "Historic environment record" is ticked. This will bring up little green areas that can be clicked on to get further information about a plot, building, old township name, buildings contained on an estate or farm e.g. lime kiln, sheep folds etc.
I feel that this should be recommended elsewhere on these boards if it hasn't been already? Didn't think to check before writing this. It has been a godsend to me.
Jill