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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: grandarog on Monday 10 April 17 16:53 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Could any of you lovely people help me with this query. This Steel Block appears to be for printing.It has a reversed crest of Ireland on the working face. The crest is etched/cut into the block not raised
On one long side it has IRELAND 877.
On the other it has SOUTHWOOD 96. REGENT ST Also 877. The end faces are clear
It weighs 9 Ounces and is 2 1/4 X 1 3/4 X 1/2 Inch,s in size.
The boss is 7/16 ths Dia by 1/2 inch high.
Southwoods appear to have been Postcard Printers .
Other than that I am at a loss as what purpose this would have been used for .
Thankyou for your help ,Best Wishes Roger.
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Perhaps it gave a kind of embossed effect on card when pressed into it?
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That's a good one Dublin :)
"Embossing aids in creating a unique and individualized texturized 3D effect of any design, decoration on surfaces such as cardstock, metal and paper".
Giggsy
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on zooming up the picture there seems to be a stag in the doorway of the castle on top
found this article dont know if it helps
see paragraph ''achievement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Ireland
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This is the female half of a die set, you need the other half, the male half. Like this;http://www.ideal-mark.com/Imagenes/Imagenes%20Grandes/P323ProductImage1.jpg
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Could it be one half of a Company Seal?
Alex
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I think it's part of a typeface which would be inked & set in a printing press.
Skoosh.
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Why would a postcard printers have a die of the crest and coat of arms of Ireland.
It was hardly for putting on postcards.
Was this an official state crest, if it was who could use it and for what?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Ireland
maybe the people on the Heraldry Crests and Coat of Arms board would be better placed to answer.
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I think it's part of a typeface which would be inked & set in a printing press.
Skoosh.
I'm doubtful about that idea. If the block was inked then set down to print you'd end up with a very black square with a bit of the engraved area being light.
Possibly Southwoods made the block to order rather than using it for printing cards themselves.
Do you know anything of its history, where it was found, etc.?
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Thank you all for suggestions :).Aghadowey it was in a box of bits from an ancient relative .Pretty sure it is at least a hundred years old or more. The fact it has a spigot indicates to me it was to fit to some type of press. Other than that I am still none the wiser . If it was one half of a die set I am sure there would have to be locator pins or pegs to ensure alignement.
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Following my earlier post, a simple explanation of a embossing machine, and the die sets used; https://youtu.be/8OUmI4-NNy8
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Although it might have been used in something like this; http://cdn.loc.gov/service/pnp/nclc/05100/05165v.jpg
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I think it's not the Irish harp, rather a harp with cherub has musical connections.
Possibly a master die used to make impressions on lead sheet for use in a printing press.
Mike
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I think it's not the Irish harp, rather a harp with cherub has musical connections.
Possibly a master die used to make impressions on lead sheet for use in a printing press.
Mike
It's the Irish harp, the old one.
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I think it's not the Irish harp, rather a harp with cherub has musical connections.
Possibly a master die used to make impressions on lead sheet for use in a printing press.
Mike
Irish Free State emblem!!
The Green harp flag, first used by Owen Roe O'Neill in 1642.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland
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Are there letters here?? A rubbing could be interesting!!
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As it's an official looking thing, could it have been used to impress into a wax seal?
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I think it's not the Irish harp, rather a harp with cherub has musical connections.
Possibly a master die used to make impressions on lead sheet for use in a printing press.
Mike
It is the British royal arms version of the arms of Ireland - a harp. That the harp is depicted as "singing" (the winged female figure) is a matter of artistic choice. This choice is frequency made in depictions of the British royal arms, but never in the version used by the Irish state.
The arms are surmounted by the crest of Ireland, the castle, and surrounded by the collar and badge of the order of St. Patrick - the Irish equivalent of the English order of the Garter, during English rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Ireland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_St_Patrick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_St_Patrick)
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Are there letters here?? A rubbing could be interesting!!
Insignia of Order of St Patrick
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_St_Patrick
Looking further down that link the full surround is the Collar of the Order of St.Patrick
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01jwg/
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It reminds me of the raised impression you often find on degrees and diplomas etc..
I have seen similar on old postcards, which could be coloured in, though none quite as intricate as the one in the photo.
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http://cdn.loc.gov/service/pnp/nclc/05100/05165v.jpg
I used a machine similar to the one in the picture but in the motor industry in the making of number plates in a'' motor factors'' (before anyone asks was i in prison).
The front of the aluminium plate was covered in masking tape and then placed face down in the press ,i then had to calculate the distance for spaces between letters and numbers which were on metal dyes and placed in the press similar to where the young lady's hand is in the photo.
I then removed the masking tape from the plate but not the embossed letters or numbers,the plate was then sprayed black and then the masking tape was removed from the letters and numbers and then the plate was baked in an oven.
edited to add there were male dyes the the embossed part connected to the swinging arm and female indented placed under the number plate.
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Thank You again. So far we have established that.
A. The Harp is the early version.
B. Castle with Deer in doorway
C. The surround is the Collar of the Order of St Patrick.
Strongly suggests the block (what ever its use)is well over 100 years old.
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Good morning,
Spot on YT, both your handheld or the desktop machine would have held a die like this, this one being the top die. It would have been held in place by a grub screw against the peg. The male die always sat at the bottom in a recess and the female at the top. Held in and aligned by the grubscrew.
If anyone remembers the old style British MOT certificate, they used a similar tool to emboss your certificate to make it official.
I found several on Ebay but as no 1 grandson is using my laptop can't do a link.
John915
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Being that I was apprenticed has a toolmaker I thought I might be right ;)
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Thanks to you all for establishing that it is the top half of a die set.The indent from the securing grub screw can be clearly seen on the securing peg.
Now the only question is what was the grand embossed seal it produced used for??.
Would it maybe a government office stamp similar to the old MOT embossed Stamp????
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Wonder could National Archives help
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/recreational_activities_in_ireland/cultural_institutions/national_archives_of_ireland.html
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I don't know anything about Royal Orders but I would think the Order would be the only people allowed to use the Collar image.
Funny thing is I can see the Collar surrounding the Royal Coat of Arms but can't see an example of it used with the Ireland Coat of Arms and Crest, except your die.
Perhaps the printers did a lot more than postcards and had contracts with the various Royal Orders.
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The die depicts the full "achievement" of the arms of Ireland. An heraldic full achievement consists of the arms, plus crest, plus any orders. A full achievement should also include supporters, if available, but Ireland does not have such. In any case, as all the elements in this example are purely Irish, e.g. not the British royal arms or crests as such, it is clearly meant to convey "Ireland" and not GB, or UK. To me the most likely possibility is simply that it was the primary decoration on an "Irish" postcard. An alternative to shamrocks and wolfhounds, etc. etc. Perhaps others can think of other possibilities.
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Maybe "a Die for a Victorian Belt Plate.
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Good morning,
Maybe "a Die for a Victorian Belt Plate.
NO WAY.
John915
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In reply to Dathai the sit down press with a safety gate
In front did you also use that type.
Would that type be used for embossing😊
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Hi Scribble
never used any other than the one similar to the photo, there was no safety gate on the one i used just a sliding aperature similar to where you would insert drawers into a cabinet these held the dyes top and bottom.
Dathai
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Thanks for your reply,I know which one you mean the one at a time swinging arm. :'(
Nicknamed the,
"Incredible Hulk"💪
Or put in a jig punched with holes to suit the number plate and hard plastic numbers or letters used in the holes and fastened down with a punch ring.😊
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Frederick Charles Southwood, 96 Regent Street, London.
described as fancy stationer in Post Office London Directory 1895. [Part 2: Street Directory] source http://cdm16445.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/landingpage/collection/p16445coll4
The National Archives COPY 1/453/386
describes several photographs as per this example a ‘Photograph [of] child...... Copyright owner of work: Frederick Charles Southwood, 96 Regent Street, London. Copyright author of work: Alexander Corbett, 36 Rutland Park Mansions, Willesden Green, London. Form completed: 18 November 1901. Registration stamp: 1901 November 19. the form emanates from Records of the Copyright Office, Stationers' Company.
in the 1911 census he describes himself as Artistic Stationer, living with family at 105 Abbey Road St Johns Wood Nw Parish Hampstead. I wonder if the block could well be copyrighted and the author of the work might be named?
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I too am sure that it was for embossing in some way. Most of us probably have somewhere a book where instead of a psted in bookplate there is a raised, stamped image, and there are several ways it could be used, located in different "machines" for the task.
It most certainly isn't for printing in with type.
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Business Card holder or a cigarette case,playing cards. looks like it has connections with waterways,with the masthead connected to the harp. ;D