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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: JenNZL on Tuesday 11 April 17 03:45 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I suspect this might be a dead end in my research, but I'm trying to track down a baptism record for Anne L'Homme, circa 1710, apparently in Echiselle, France.
She married Jean Mandineau in London in 1736 (he was from Moncoutant, Poitou-Charentes)
I can't find Echiselle anywhere - I'm wondering if it's a typo, an error, or a place that has had a name change. (The information came from family tree documents done some years ago - unfortunately there's no reference as to where this information came from. Possibly something that hasn't yet been digitised?)
Any help much appreciated - I'd love to find out more about my French ancestors, other than the fact that they were Huguenot refugees to London.
Cheers,
Jen
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Hi Jen
Do you have a document for the marriage in London in 1736 and/or
the baptism entry of Jean Mandineau from Moncoutant, Poitou-Charentes?
Moncoutant belonges to the Département Deux-Sèvres, Poitou-Charentes.
http://archives.deux-sevres.com/archives79/Archivesenligne/Registresparoissiauxetd%C3%A9tatcivil.aspx
Regards
Svenja
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There are several mentions of them at Threadneedle street:
https://archive.org/stream/registersoffrenc23egli#page/188/mode/2up
Anne Mandineau in 1738 was godmother to the child of Jacques L'Homme and wife Louise.
https://archive.org/stream/registersoffrenc23egli#page/16/mode/2up
Jacques L'Homme of St Martin, L'Isle de France, son of Claude L'Homme and the late Anne Juvin, married Louise Neelz in 1733.
https://archive.org/stream/registersoffrenc23egli#page/14/mode/2up
In 1731 married two Claudes - one, a widower, the other, son of Claude L'Homme and Anne Juvin.
https://archive.org/stream/livredestesmoign2116egli#page/178/mode/2up
- here are mentioned in the 1700s several L'Hommes including an Anne, aged 22 (as of 29 July 1724) born St Martin en Gaulle.
From the explanatory records for this document, the most likely place referred to as "St-Martin" is modern-day "Saint-Martin-de-Nigelles" in Eure-et-Loir, and the record relates to her full admission into the church as an adult,
https://archive.org/stream/livredestesmoign2116egli#page/n51/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/livredestesmoign2116egli#page/n19/mode/2up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Martin-de-Nigelles
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Thank you both!
That gives me a couple of leads to explore.
I've searched through loads of old maps of France and can't find L'Echiselle anywhere - though according to the family tree information we have, it was north of Paris, so those L'Homme family members appear to have originated from the right general area.
Fascinating!
Thanks all,
Jx
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Hi,
Can you provide a picture of the original record mentioning her place of origin ?
Coud it be Ecluzelles, near Dreux ?
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cluzelles
David
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Hi,
Can you provide a picture of the original record mentioning her place of origin ?
Coud it be Ecluzelles, near Dreux ?
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cluzelles
David
Hi David,
Thank you for your reply - unfortunately, I have no idea what primary source material this information came from. It's written in the text of a book that some family members wrote in 1997 outlining our Huguenot heritage, but unfortunately this particular section is not referenced in any way. The only other information I have is that it was north of Paris, and the family were involved in silk weaving and lace making. Ecluzelles does fit geograhpically, in that case, and I can see how it could be misheard as "Echiselle".
At any rate, thank you so much - It's definitely a lead I will follow up on. I will look into the records further and see if I can find anything about the family.
Cheers,
Jen
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There is no entry on Geneanet for a L'HOMME family in Ecluzelles but there are plenty of L'HOMMES in the area.
Not sure that her baptism got registered yet.
http://epuf-chartres.fr/pr%C3%A9sence-protestante-en-eure-et-loir-au-cours-des-si%C3%A8cles
La résistance, sans être aussi spectaculaire que dans d’autres régions, n’en fut pas moins réelle.
On a trouvé trace d’un certain nombre de cas individuels d’émigration. Mais les recherches systématiques faites dans les pays du refuge n’ont pas permis de retrouver beaucoup d’originaires d’Eure et Loir. L’émigration n’a donc été ni massive ni systématique.
Il y a par contre eu nombre de récalcitrants, on a ainsi pu calculer, d’après les archives, que les baptêmes et mariages catholiques ont été assez massivement boycottés dans certaines zones, le déplacement à l’ambassade des Pays Bas était toujours possible à défaut d’être facile. Quant aux enterrements clandestins, ils semblent avoir été fréquents.
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Hi,
I've just stumbled across the marriage record for Jean Mandineau and Anne L'Homme on Ancestry - I'm not sure if it's newly digitised or if I just haven't managed to find it before now, but this is where I suspect the "Echiselle" comes from. I hope it's ok to put a small snipped image up here (I know I can't attach the entire scanned image because of copyright). Looking at this image (and the addition of "L'Isle de France" does Ecluzelles still seem a possibility?
(I have added them as attachments....not sure if this will work or not. The text spans two lines, hence the two separate snipped images, and reads "[...] "le marriage de Jean Mandineau originaire de Moncoutant en Poitou et de Anne L'Homme native d'Echiselle en L'Isle de France. [...])
Not sure if it's likely to help any but I realised I also have the names of Anne's sisters: they were Denise, Christine, and Marianne, and they all settled in Bethnal Green in London (they appear on various baptism records for the children of Jean and Anne)
Thanks for your help thus far,
Jenni
PS If you click on the first image, you can see the part that says "d'Echiselle." It's cut off in the thumbnail but it is there :-)
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In those days Isle de France was Mauritius;
Léoville L'Homme , poet born in Mauritus in 1857. Apparently there a L'homme family in Mauritius.
But I cannot find any ECHISELLE village, hamlet or town .
Where were born the sisters?
Can you give the link where you found "Anne l'homme native d'Echiselle, Isle de France"?
http://nationalarchives.govmu.org/NationalArchivesServices/
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ile-de-France_historique1.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carte_de_l%27Ile_de_France.svg
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Exploring the St Martin de Nigelles possibility I found :
birth of Jaques son of Claude Lhomme and Anne Juvin on the 27th of january 1704
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=332.79998779296875%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=74&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 108/380
born of the "marriage without ceromonies and without the presence of the proper curate "of Claude and Anne
Claude was an "homme de peine"=workhand man
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Found birth of Claude son of Claude de Lhomme and Anne Juvin, on the 28th of February 1706
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=320%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=75&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 126/380
Born of the secret (clandestine) marriage of Claude and Anne ( it means they were huguenots)., the child was baptized by the midwife, and then the curate legalised it.
Claude was baptized (as a catholic , of course) .
Claude the father is said to be a winegrower.
I found several baptisms of this sort in 1706 in ST Martin de Nigelles, all for children born of a clandestine marriage.
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Jacques and Claude Lhomme were sons of Claude LHomme and Anne Juvin, they married two sisters Louise and Marie Nee(lz) in 1733 and 1731), in London
Thanks to jorose for the precious infos of the Book of Temoignages
Anne is said born in St Martin de Nisible at the marriage of Claude (it must be St M. de Nigelle, i'll try to find her birth) and I am almost certain that Echiselle is St Martin de Nigelle but it had been misstated
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Found the births of Marianne and Christine , sisters of Anne and it is very interesting:
Marie Anne :9th of august1711 , page 157/380
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=375.25%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=99&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Translation:9th of august 1711, I, curate have baptized,Marie Anne, born this morning at 8, of the legitimate marriage of Claude Lhomme, winegrower newly reunited, and Anne Juvin, from the nearby hamlet of C... , godfather Robert Lepreux..., godmother Susanne P... the godfather has signed.The marriage took place approximatly 10 years ago in their protestant law and they lived since then as husband and wife.
Christine : 10th of april 1714, page 172/380
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=375.25%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=99&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Translation :I , curate, have baptized Christine this morning 2 hours before sunrise,daughter of Claude Delommes who was of the so called reformed religion and Anne Juvin known as his wife, godfather Louis ..., godmother Christine...
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Birth of Pierre 4th of march 1717 , death on the 21st of october , page 185/380, father Claude delhomme, mother Anne Juvin of the religion of Calvin
Birth of Louise 9th of September 1719 born at 9 in the morning, page 195/380
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Birth of Denise :20th of July 1708 father Claude Delhomme, workhand man , mother Anne Juvin ,his wife, from the hamlet of Eglancourt, of the so called reformed religion
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=-1443%2C-913&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=160&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 140
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Thank you so much for all that wonderful information! I had no idea the records of that area and time had been digitised, and I wouldn't have known how to search them either. (I have a basic understanding of French (5 years at high school) but navigating some of these sites is well beyond my language skills.) And interesting to learn Claude's occupation, too - the information I have (no idea of the source, however) suggested that the family were in the silk weaving / lace making trade. Perhaps that was the women? Is 'workhand man' the equivalent of some kind of agricultural labourer, do you think?
So...am I right in reading that Claude de l'Homme and Anne Juvin had:
Jacques 1704
Claude 1706
Denise 1708
Marianne 1711
Christine 1714
Pierre 1717
Louise 1719
...I wonder where Anne is?
If I look at the entries in the Livre des tesmoinages (kindly linked to earlier by Jorose:-) ) I'm not quite sure how to read the dates. Is the age listed alongside each name the age they were on the date in the right hand column? Which would suggest Anne was born in 1702, instead of the 1710 I had thought. And while the other members are listed with l'Isle de France or St Martin de Nigelles, she's listed as being born (I presume that's what it means) in St Martin de Gaulle. Does that offer any further clues as to where her baptism record might be?
Again, thanks so very much for your help on this. I had thought this was a dead end in my family history explorations so it's tremendously exciting to have some new leads to follow up on.
Cheers,
Jenni
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Actually...scratch that last question. Looking at another of the pages linked to by JoRose, it is suggested that St Martin de Gaulle and St Martin de Nigelles are the same place. Hmmm....
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Also....I'm not sure if there were any particular naming traditions in France at this point in time, but just in case it provides any further clues, the children of Anne L'Homme and Jean Mandineau were:
Francois (Jean's father's name)
Pierre
Daniel
Jacques
Jean
Cheers,
Jenni
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The list of names and births is right.
I think too that Saint Martin de Gaulle is St Martin de Nigelles but I cannot find her (I went back until 1698)
The book of temoignages says that Anne is 22 in July 1724, but is it right? after all there are a lot of mistakes , she might have been 25 , I 'll have another look .
I found this : http://spitalfieldslife.com/2013/04/14/the-huguenots-of-spitalfields/
Go and have a look, most interesting for you.
You can also type GENI in google and then Anne L'homme in geni's search:
https://www.geni.com/search?search_type=people&names=anne+l%27homme
https://www.geni.com/people/Anne-Mandineau/6000000003650294484
And try to see who is Bill Paterson who knows things about her.
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Homme de peine =man doing any kind of hard work
I found a very very interesting thing : act of abjuration of Calvin's heresy of Claude Delhomme
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=314.73333740234375%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=74&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 58/380
Bottom of the left page and beginning of the right page .
Translation :
1698, the 13th of april Claude de l'homme, son of Claude de l'homme and Simone drane ( drone?) farmer of (St martin )de Nigelles renounced Calvin's heresy and made profession of the catholic apostolic and roman faith in my hands , in presence of Messire gaston de tranchellion, gaston de cafardelle,and louis ... jean...jeanDubois, gille vellenier, nicolas leblanc, they al signed the act that I sent to the secretary of the bishopsric, according to the orders of the bishop of Chartres
Fontenay
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Naming traditions were approximatly the same as in England and not always followed but you can be sure of this : very rarely you'll find originality and that means a lot of namesakes .There were the family traditionnal names (for example : François in a family, Pierre in another) , habits of giving uncle's , grand parents's names and so on and there were local traditionnal names according to the local saints.
Another tradition is to give the godmother's name to a girl (except if there is a living sibling with this name, the godfather's name to a boy).
If a child was called by a double name , for example Claude françois , may be he was never called Claude , or never called françois in his whole life . A boy called Marie Joseph Lerouge (for ex) will never be called Marie.
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In the baptism record of Marie Anne, the priest mentions the parents as married into the Protestant faith about 10 years ago and pretending to be husband and wife since then.
He is a winegrower in 1711.
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Homme de peine =man doing any kind of hard work
I found a very very interesting thing : act of abjuration of Calvin's heresy of Claude Delhomme
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=314.73333740234375%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=74&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 58/380
Bottom of the left page and beginning of the right page .
Translation :
1698, the 13th of april Claude de l'homme, son of Claude de l'homme and Simone drane ( drone?) farmer of (St martin )de Nigelles renounced Calvin's heresy and made profession of the catholic apostolic and roman faith in my hands , in presence of Messire gaston de tranchellion, gaston de cafardelle,and louis ... jean...jeanDubois, gille vellenier, nicolas leblanc, they al signed the act that I sent to the secretary of the bishopsric, according to the orders of the bishop of Chartres
Fontenay
Simonne DROINE for DROUIN ?
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In 1704, the godmother of Jacques is Françoise Magdeleine DE L'HOMME, dauther of the late Claude DE L'HOMME, a plowman when alive.
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=80%2C-304&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=126&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 14
17/AUG/1693 - baptism record of ... son of Claude L'HOMME, plowman, and Simmone DROUIN
The next record is the burial of Joseph L'HOMME, about 5 years old, son of Claude L'HOMME
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Yes could be DROINE
I see the act in 1693 it is DROÜIN in fact , but can you read the name of the boy?
So Claude Lhomme , married later to Anne Juvin had a brother named Joseph who died in 1693, and a brother born in 1693 named? also a sister named françoise magdeleine
Well done, I find this handwriting difficult to decipher
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-368%2C-274&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=123&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 36
Christening of Madalene DELOUME, daughter of Claude LHOUME and Simonne DROIN
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Yes could be DROINE
I see the act in 1693 it is DROÜIN in fact , but can you read the name of the boy?
No. I don't see it. I think it's Jacques because of the godfather.
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You mean godfather? It could be , or not. In fact the priest curate forgot to write the name of the boy, may be the name is written in the original book (this one is the copy as said at the end of the year).
he made 2 corrections : , I can't read the first one , the second one is "nommé", under marriage , on top of "sa femme"
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-210%2C-213&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=98&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 78 Claude DE L'HOMME witness at a wedding as a friend. The priest says he can sign his name.
No signature yet because, as you say, the record is a copy.
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www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-210%2C-213&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=98&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 80
Christening of Susanne
Godfather Claude DEL'HOMME, plowman
Godmother Simonne widow DEL'HOMME
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The story of the religion followed by Claude Delhomme,(or De L'homme, finally Lhomme) is hard to understand
1 . in 1698 a certain Claude de l'homme , son of Claude De l'Homme and Simone Drouin renounces the protestant faith and makes profession of faith in the catholic religion.
How old is he ? Is he the Claude Lhomme we find in 1723 in London with his wife Anne Juvin? Probably.
2.1704 birth of Jacques of Claude Lhomme and Anne Juvin , married without ceremonies and without the proper curate, Jacques baptized (catholic), godmother :françoise magdeleine lhomme , daughter of the late Claude lhomme , labourer (he should be the husband of Simone ) (and thus paternal aunt of the baby.
Let's try to find the death act, may be the name of Simone is mentionned.
3.1706 birth of Claude baptized catholic(of Claude Lhomme and Anne Juvin), of a clandestine marriage, baby baptized by the midwife and the curate legalizes the baptism with the proper ceremonies (catholic)
Claude is a winegrower (vigneron)
4.1708 birth of Denise, baptized catholic of Claude Delomme and Anne Juvin of the so called reformed religion , from the hamlet of Eglancourt . Claude is "Homme de peine"
5. 1711 birth of Marie Anne baptized catholic, of the legitimate marriage of Claude lhomme (winegrower , "nouveau réuni" and Anne Juvin . "The said marriage was done according to their protestant law about 10 years ago, and they lived as husband and wife since then."
nouveau réuni = came back recently to the catholic religion
the marriage is said "legitimate" though done in the protestant religion, or is it a mistake and the curate meant illegitimate?
6.1714 birth of Christine ( baptized catholic)of Claude Delommes (qui estoit de la religion prétendue réformée and Anne Juvin (réputée sa femme = known as his wife). ESTOIT means : was (past)
7.1717 birth of Pierre of Claude delomme, winegrower of this parish and Anne Juvin with whom he has been living for several years as if she was his wife without the sacrament , beinf of the religion of Calvin, godfather ... good catholic, godmother .. good roman catholic
8. 1719 birth of Louise of the so called marriage of Claude Delhomme and Anne Juvin
May be the renouncement was clearly not sincere (they did not go to mass and so on ) .The revocation of the Edict of Nantes led a large majority of protestants to convert.
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www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-210%2C-213&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=98&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 80
Christening of Susanne
Godfather Claude DEL'HOMME, plowman
Godmother Simonne widow DEL'HOMME
I had found this one , it means that the death of Claude , husband of Simone is to be found between 1698 and1700 2d october.
I tried but did not find it .
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and you probably won't find one because the family is obviously still Protestant.
No marriage and burial records for them in the Catholic registers.
They only accepted the Catholic baptism.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ia6kAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=huguenot+catholic+baptism&source=bl&ots=UqFN4Ba4XR&sig=ir4rL7ETh30Gp7B-dw60FNaxaAE&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZwpCuyPrVAhXLKVAKHSMJCBgQ6AEIQDAD#v=onepage&q=huguenot%20catholic%20baptism&f=false
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Thank you so much, both of you, for all your time and effort on this - I really appreciate it.
I'm a bit puzzled, too, about Claude renouncing the Protestant faith and then later (if it is in fact the same man) being married according to Protestant traditions. I suppose it's one of those little mysteries that may never be uncovered.
I wonder what size of place St Martin de Nigelles was back then? If it was small, then it seems likely that the Claude who married Simone Drouin was the father of Claude who married Anne, which (if I can pin Anne to this family) would take me back one more generation. I looked up the hamlet that one of the documents said Anne Juvin was from (Eglancourt?) and that appears to be a tiny place even now. I wonder if any of their records have survived?
Looking at Anne and Jean's marriage and the dates of birth of their children, I still suspect she was born later than the Livre des tesmoinages suggests. They were married in 1736, and had four children in quick succession after this. It seems unlikely that she was as old as 34 when she was married, as would be suggested by the dates in the Livre des tesmoinages.
Perhaps her baptism record simply hasn't survived?
Thanks again,
Jenni
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and you probably won't find one because the family is obviously still Protestant.
No marriage and burial records for them in the Catholic registers.
They only accepted the Catholic baptism.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ia6kAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=huguenot+catholic+baptism&source=bl&ots=UqFN4Ba4XR&sig=ir4rL7ETh30Gp7B-dw60FNaxaAE&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZwpCuyPrVAhXLKVAKHSMJCBgQ6AEIQDAD#v=onepage&q=huguenot%20catholic%20baptism&f=false
Claude de l'homme husband of Simone migh have been a catholic , though his son sas a protestant.
But anyway there are no "registres paroissiaux" before 1692 on Line for st Martin of Nigelles
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The renouncement was not sincere, because of the persecutions of that time. He still was a protestant in fact, like other people in the village. I found some acts where the curate clearly shows that he doubts about the reality of the conversions. A proof of it for the Lhommes is their exile
In London and their protestant worship
Eglancourt is a hamlet of st Martin de nigelles, the acts are Those of st Martin
We will be sure for Anne of we find more infos but don't presume that a woman of 34 can't have 4 children quickly. Fertility was greater than nowadays, no contraception ,and women had a child every 2years very often,and had children in their forties. One of my ancesters had a child at 53 !
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Eglancourt is a hamlet of st Martin de nigelles,.
Ah, I see. So does that mean I could possibly also find the birth of Anne Juvin within these same scanned parish records?
Cheers,
Jenni
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No books before 1692. Anne Juvin had her first child in 1704, if she married at 15 ( possible in those days) ,she was born in 1688, if she married older than 15 it is still impossible to find her birth act
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-188%2C-357&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=136&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
In 1713 Frame 166
Burial of Marie TUVIN, 16 months old, daughter of Pierre TUVIN, winegrower, of Eglancourt
16/SEP/1711, Frame 157
Baptism of Marie, daughter of Pierre TUVIN and Catherine LUCAS "ensemble depuis 4 ans de la région prétendüe &"
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ooh...interesting. So going by dates one would presume Pierre could potentially be a brother of Anne Juvin?
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We will be sure for Anne of we find more infos but don't presume that a woman of 34 can't have 4 children quickly. Fertility was greater than nowadays, no contraception ,and women had a child every 2years very often,and had children in their forties. One of my ancesters had a child at 53 !
You're right, of course - I just meant that it's more likely she married when she was in her early 20s. 34 seems old for the time, is all - though of course not impossible.
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-890%2C-559&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=136&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
View 145
25/SEP/1710 Burial of Pierre, son of Pierre TUVIN and Catherine LUCAS
Same view 15/MAY/1710 baptism of Pierre TUVIN, son of Pierre TUVIN, cy devant de la Religion protestant (a former Protestant), and Catherine LUCAS.
The information contradicts itself because in this record, their marriage is said legitimate = a Catholic ceremony.
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ooh...interesting. So going by dates one would presume Pierre could potentially be a brother of Anne Juvin?
As a matter of fact, I read her family name TUVIN rather than JUVIN.
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-144%2C-102&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=136&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 145
First line, last word Thomas. The letter is the same. What do you think ?
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I think you could be right - the T in Thomas has a horizontal line through the vertical, as does the first letter of Juvin/Tuvin. Then down the page the J as the first letter of the month Juin has no cross.
Is either one more likely as a family name, do you think? Or still in existence as a family name? A quick google gets me lots of instances of Juvin as a nom de famille but barely any of Tuvin. Unless the V is an R and it's Turin?
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http://www.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=20&sourcename=&nom=tuvin&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&profession=&ignore_each_profession=&nom_conjoint=&ignore_each_patronyme_conjoint=&prenom_conjoint=&prenom_conjoint_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom_conjoint=&place__0__=&voisinage=&ignore_each_place=&zonegeo__0__=Eure-et-loir&country__0__=®ion__0__=&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_day=&exact_month=&exact_year=&nom_pere=&ignore_each_patronyme_pere=&prenom_pere=&prenom_pere_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom_pere=&nom_mere=&ignore_each_patronyme_mere=&prenom_mere=&prenom_mere_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom_mere=&with_parents=0&go=1
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Ah...thank you, I didn't find that one.
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Eglancourt seemed to be a Protestant hamlet during the 18th century
https://huguenots-france.org/france/centre/dreux/rehabilitations_Stmartinnigelles.htm
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I agree ,it is very much written like a T, rather than a J. But it does no mean he is a brother of Anne , could also be a nephew
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjkiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3NDQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-109%2C-607&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=174&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 216
Fontaine sous Prémont, village of Ouerre. Protestant registers. Very damaged
18 or 28/09/1681 Baptism of Pierre TUVIN, son of Pierre TUVIN ... Eglancour and Anne BOUSSELAIRE residing in Eglancour
Godfather ? likely a TUVIN (there are two signatures) Godmother Jeanne BOUSSELAIRE
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https://huguenots-france.org/france/centre/fontaine/fontaine.htm
Baptisms
523 28 30/01/1678 TUNIN Jean
524 28 28/09/1681 TUNIN Pierre
Burials
104 28 ??/03/1677 TUNIN Anne
Jean is a brother of Pierre TUVIN
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjkiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3NDQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-623%2C173&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=134&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 178 (top on the right)
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HELP PLEASE
I think I found Anne LHOMME's birth /baptism in ECLUZELLES 27 juillet 1702 ( fille de Claude delhomme et anne invin), but the handwriting is very diificult to read
here it is : http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjkiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6ODEwOTtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30=#uielem_move=-2290%2C-1586&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=151&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 58/122, right page
invin could be juvin, the i was often written in place of the j
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A first quick reading and transcript
Ce vingt septyeme iour de iuillet mil sept centz deux a esté babtisée par moy prestre curé d'Escluzelles soubs signé Anne DE LHOMME, fille de Claude DELHOMME et d'Anne IUVIN ses père et mère de la religion prétendue réformée demeurant au dit lieu d'Escluselles son parin Iean FOURNIER et sa marinne Ieanne CLAIR... ( ?) aussi dudit lieu d'Ecluselles qui ont desclaré ne scavoir signé.
ONFROY
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A first quick reading and transcript
Ce vingt septyeme iour de iuillet mil sept centz deux a esté baptisée par moy prestre curé de ... soubs signé Anne DE LHOMME, fille de Claude DELHOMME et d'Anne IUVIN ses père et mère de la religion prétendue réformée demeurant au dit lieu d'... son parin ... Claire aussi dudit lieu d'Echyselle qui ont déclaré ne scavoir signé
ONFROY
ça me suffit pour dire :yes we found Anne. And she is 22 in 1724.
Echiselle was Ecluzelles.
And now we can try to read Ecluzelles 's books before 1702.
By the way , I looked at the tables decennales of St martin de Nigelles to see if some Juvin Or Tuvin were still living there, none of them (a few years after the Révolution), LHOMME,DELHOMME. Still some Champagnes, Souillards.
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So I was right, Echiselle is Ecluzelles. I made the same mistake trying to decipher the baptism record of Anne because of the bad handwriting.
I still can't read the name of her godmother.
Anne is likely to be the first born of the siblings as her parents got married around 1701 (if we believe what the priest wrote in 1711).
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25 km (less than 16 miles) between Ecluzelles and Saint-Martin-de-Nigelles.
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Found no Delhomme or Juvin in Ecluzelles between 1676 and 1702
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So I was right, Echiselle is Ecluzelles. I made the same mistake trying to decipher the baptism record of Anne because of the bad handwriting.
I still can't read the name of her godmother.
Anne is likely to be the first born of the siblings as her parents got married around 1701 (if we believe what the priest wrote in 1711).
Yes you were! I think the godmother is Ivonne CLAIR, aussi dudit lieu Ecluzelles (also from the said ecluzelles)
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Sorry to intervene, but I think the godmother's first names is Jeanne (ieanne) claire and the godfather's surname might be "fournier". No idea about the godmother's surname though - some trawling through the register would probably be needed.
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Oh dear! What I took for the godmother's surname was just "aussi"! Sorry.
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Yes it may be jeanne clair
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Sorry to intervene, but I think the godmother's first names is Jeanne (ieanne) claire and the godfather's surname might be "fournier". .
godfather Jean FOURNIER
Godmother Jeanne Claire
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Thinking about the question of anne's surname (spouse of Claude Lhomme), I remembered having seen this :
page 257 of the book of Temoignages, we find several Tuvins
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Wow! Thank you both so, so much - what a tremendously exciting thing to wake up to :-) That all fits with what we know so far. How on earth you can manage to read that handwriting I have no idea, but thank you so much for deciphering it all. Again, thank you so much for generously spending time on this.
Jen
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In the Book of Temoignages Pierre L'homme , 36 years'old in march 1696 is said to be born in
l' Affaire in Picardie .
There is no Affaire, L'Affaire village or town in Picardie but I found La Fère (pronounced : l'affaire).
Till now I have found some L'hommes but no Pierre. Some years are missing.
I also found 2 acts of abjuration.
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I wonder how / if Pierre is connected, then? La Fere (excuse my lack of proper accents, I can't figure out how to type them) seems quite a distance from St Martin de Nigelles, from my as-the-crow-flies estimate on google maps (close to 200k in a straight line).
What are the names listed alongside in the book of temoinages? I noticed too that next to Claude and Anne's entry, there's a M. Tuvin listed.
***
So...this is what I have so far ( just the l'Homme side, with a bit of presumption in here particularly around Claude and family):
? Claude de l’Homme born, possibly c. 1680, if we presume an age of around 20 years at marriage, possibly to Claude d l'Homme and Simonne Drouin (I'm not sure if we can categorically link Claude who married Anne Tuvin to Claude/Simonne but it seems likely based on dates, I think.)
? Francoise Magdalene de l’Homme (possible sister to Claude?)
c. 1688: birth of Joseph de l’Homme (possible brother of Claude?)
1693: baptism of a son (unnamed) born to Claude de l’Homme and Simonne Drouin (another brother?)
1693: death and burial of Joseph de l’Homme, aged around 5
1698: abjuration of heresy of Calvin by Claude de l’Homme, fils de Claude de l’Homme et Simonne Drouin
1701: Mariage clandestin of Claude L’Homme et Anne Tuvin
1702: Baptism of Anne L’Homme, Ecluzelles
1704: Baptism of Jacques L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
1706: Baptism of Claude L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
1708: Baptism of Denise L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
1711: Baptism of Marie Anne L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
1714: Baptism of Christine L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
1717: Baptism of Pierre L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
1719: Baptism of Louise L’Homme, St Martin de Nigelles
Must have travelled to London sometime between 1719 and 1723
1723: Temoinage of Claude L’Homme et sa femme Anne, L’Eglise de Londres
1724: Temoinage of Anne L’Homme, L’Eglise de Londres, age 22.
1724: Temoinage of Jacques L’Homme, L’Eglise de Londres
1725: Temoinage of Claude L’Homme, L’Eglise de Londres, age 20
1730: Temoinage of Christine L’Homme, L’Eglise de Londres, age 17
1730: Temoinage of Marianne L’Homme, L’Eglise de Londres, age 20
1731: Marriage of Claude L’Homme (fils de Claude L’Homme et Anne Tuvin) to Marie Nee[lz], L’Eglise de Londres
1733: Marriage of Jacques L’Homme (fils de Claude L’Homme et de feue Anne Juvin – can we presume she may have died between 1731-1733?) to Louise Neelz, L’Eglise de Londres
1736: Marriage of Anne L’Homme to Jean Mandineau, Church of the Artillery, London
1737: Birth of Francois Mandineau (fils de Jean Mandineau et Anne L’Homme)
1738: Birth of Pierre Mandineau (fils de Jean Mandineau et Anne L’Homme)
1739: Birth of Jean Mandineau (fils de Jean Mandineau and Anne L’Homme)
1741: Birth of Daniel Mandineau (fils de Jean Mandineau and Anne L’Homme)
1743: Birth of Jacques Mandineau (fils de Jean Mandineau et Anne L’Homme)
Sometime in 1743 (though I can’t find record of it) Anne presumably dies, as Jean remarries the following year.
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Hello again,
I’m having a go at slowly transcribing the records, purely for my own interest (and to practise my rusty French), and while it’s getting easier to read, some of the terms are still unfamiliar. Am I right in thinking:
Prestre-curé = parish priest
Inhumé = buried
Sous-signé = undersigned
Parroise = parish
Parain = godfather
Maraine = godmother
Lesquels ont declaré ne savoir signé = they’ve declared they don’t know how to sign
Also:
Is ‘ay’ an archaic conjugation of avoir, with a y instead of an i?
It also looks like there are instance of ‘moy’ where ‘moi’ would make sense, as well as ‘foy’ (is that faith?) instead of ‘foi’. Was ‘i’ often replaced with ‘y’? Or am I reading these both wrong?
Some of the places where I’d expect a circumflex accent still have the original s, is that right? Like some forms of être? (a esté baptisé, for instance.)
A number of the baptisms appear to start with something that looks like “j’ai curé et j’ai baptisé….” Is that correct? If so, what is the meaning of curé in this context?
(Please excuse my mistakes –high school French was a long time ago, but I'd love to be able to read this stuff better :-) )
Cheers,
Jenni
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Hello again,
I’m having a go at slowly transcribing the records, purely for my own interest (and to practise my rusty French), and while it’s getting easier to read, some of the terms are still unfamiliar. Am I right in thinking:
Prestre-curé = parish priest
Inhumé = buried
Sous-signé = undersigned
Parroise = parish
Parain = godfather
Maraine = godmother
Lesquels ont declaré ne savoir signé = they’ve declared they don’t know how to sign
Also:
Is ‘ay’ an archaic conjugation of avoir, with a y instead of an i?
It also looks like there are instance of ‘moy’ where ‘moi’ would make sense, as well as ‘foy’ (is that faith?) instead of ‘foi’. Was ‘i’ often replaced with ‘y’? Or am I reading these both wrong?
Some of the places where I’d expect a circumflex accent still have the original s, is that right? Like some forms of être? (a esté baptisé, for instance.)
A number of the baptisms appear to start with something that looks like “j’ai curé et j’ai baptisé….” Is that correct? If so, what is the meaning of curé in this context?
(Please excuse my mistakes –high school French was a long time ago, but I'd love to be able to read this stuff better :-) )
Cheers,
Jenni
Many questions in your post.
Go there to see the difference between a prêtre and a curé. A prêtre is a priest , a curé is a curate
http://au-spiritain-riant.over-blog.fr/article-35557896.html
Your are correct in your translations. Remember that in those days the spelling of the words was not really settled , for example you will find marraine (right spelling for godmother) written maraine or mareine or mareyne etc...
The "circonflexe" accent in French means that in ancien French there was an S after the vowel. For example Hospital is the ancient form of hôpital ,estre is the ancient form of être etc...
The Y is for double i (pronounced double i) .
"J'ay" curé means : I, curate ( or I, being curate of ...) , it is the status that is emphasized. In contemporary french it would be : Moi, curé.
J'ay curé batisé = I curate have baptized
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Thank you, that's really helpful. Fascinating article, too.
Cheers,
Jenni
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I wonder how / if Pierre is connected, then? La Fere (excuse my lack of proper accents, I can't figure out how to type them) seems quite a distance from St Martin de Nigelles, from my as-the-crow-flies estimate on google maps (close to 200k in a straight line).
What are the names listed alongside in the book of temoinages? I noticed too that next to Claude and Anne's entry, there's a M. Tuvin listed.
Is is explained at the beginning of the Book of temoignages.
You had to give proof of your belonging to the protestant faith in order to be welcommed in the church , in their exile many huguenots could not show papers , act of protestant baptism ...So the church accepted testomonies (= témoignages).
Mr Tuvin is the witness,( warrantor, guarantor) that Claude Lhomme and Anne Juvin Lhomme are protestants
***
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I am trying to find if Pierre and Judith Lhomme are related to Claude, that's why I search in La Fère's archives but , the years around 1660 , when Pierre Lhomme should be born in La Fère (if La Fère is the Affaire they mention in the book of Temoignages) are missing.
I search between 1678 (he would have been 18 and 1696 when he is found in London.
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I found this on ancestry:
"Pierre L'Homme, natif de la Fer en Picardie, fils de feu Etienne L'Homme et d'Elizabet Becarre;
Judith Lorsigno, native de St. Goubin[?] en Picardie, fille de feu Jacques Lorsigno et de feue Judith d'Ardenne"
They married on May 19 1695 at the Chapel of the Hospital, Spitalfields, London.
**edited to add:
Pierre and Judith had:
A son, Pierre, in 1697, godfather Pierre de Monceau [?] godmother Marie L'Homme.
(I found Marie's marriage, too...she appears to be a sister of Pierre snr, also from Picardie)
A son Jacques in 1698, godfather Jacques Lambert, godmother Jeanne DuPont
Intrestingly, I found a further marriage a month or so after the one I mentioned previously (which took place in the Chapel of the Hospital on 19 May 1695). The second one was on 30 July 1695 between Peter L'Homme, weaver, of Spitalfields and Judith Lorsigno, spinster, of same (This is in an Anglican church, St Dunstans in Stepney). I wonder why they would get married in both churches? The names seem enough of a coincidence to presume they are the same people.
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Let me reiterate my thanks for everyone who helped find all these records - my family tree is now much richer and it's been a real treat to see the scanned documents and learn a little more about our family's French origins. I had no idea such things were even available online.
Now that I've got a bit more of an understanding of the terminology I'm working my way through the registers that are online for Moncoutant to try to trace the Mandineau side - no luck so far but there are still lots of pages to go :-) Some interesting comments made by the priest on some of the other parish records, though - referring to "abominable huguenots" and "miserable huguenots".
Again, thanks so much to everyone who has been so generous with their time and expertise. I really appreciate it.
Jenni
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http://gw.geneanet.org/pineauk?n=mandineau&oc=&p=jeanne
http://gw.geneanet.org/clovis17?n=mandineau&oc=&p=jeanne
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Thank you :-) All I know about the Mandineau side so far is that Jean (who married Anne) was the son of Francois and Helene, from Moncoutant (or so it says on his marriage record) and that he had an older sister. Unfortunately I have no references or anything to back this up - the family tree was done back in the pre-internet days (some relative traveled to France and trawled through the records in person.)
I'm about 80 pages into one of the registers of around the time he would have been born - no Mandineau names at all though so perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place. I'll keep chipping away at it though - fortunately most of the handwriting is pretty clear and well preserved.
I'm looking here:
http://archives.deux-sevres.com/archives79/Archivesenligne/Registresparoissiauxetd%C3%A9tatcivil.aspx
...at the one for 1700-1711, for want of anywhere better to start. If he's a similar age to Anne, then I guess he was born somewhere in that range.
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http://www.bois-tiffrais.org/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=106
MANDINEAU famille de Bazoges en Pareds, Mouilleron en Pareds,
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http://www.bois-tiffrais.org/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=106
MANDINEAU famille de Bazoges en Pareds, Mouilleron en Pareds,
Thanks!
That's quite close to Moncoutant, isn't it? - though in Vendee rather than Deux-Sevres, is that right? (in terms of looking online at registers.)
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yes
http://www.archives.vendee.fr/Consulter/Archives-numerisees
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Found the marriage of Claude homme and Simone Drouin 20th of march 1678 in Authon du Perche (nowadays in the département of Eure et Loir)
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-552%2C-586&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=142&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Page 63/96
Claude Lhomme , "étaminnier"? ,son of Claude Lhomme , "cordonnier" "shoemaker" and Judith ? his father and mother, living in Authon and Simone drouin ... Authon, daughter of .... , merchant, and ....living in St martin de nigelles have attended claude lhomme , father of the groom, jaques and peter brothers of the groom, jacques menou the young , merchant living in Authon , his cousin.....
signatures
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-552%2C-586&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=142&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
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http://gw.geneanet.org/elianepignard?lang=en&pz=eliane+madeleine&nz=pignard&ocz=0&p=francoise&n=lhomme&oc=2
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Jacques MENOU le jeune demeurant à Authon son cousin
http://gw.geneanet.org/barthricher?lang=en&pz=catherine+fanny&nz=jeuvrey&ocz=0&p=jacques&n=menou
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birth of Claude Lhomme son of Claude Lhomme and Simone drouin 25th december 1678 in Authon
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-440%2C-398&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=102&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 65/96
godfather jacques lhomme , godmother esther ?
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Claude Lhomme , "étaminnier"?
Do you think this could be "tannier" ? The blob before the t could just be the start of the upsweep of the pen, perhaps?
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Claude Lhomme , "étaminnier"?
Do you think this could be "tannier" ? The blob before the t could just be the start of the upsweep of the pen, perhaps?
yes you're right , can you ty to decipher the 2 signatures ?
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but if you look page 65 , the occupation is hard too decipher but does not look like tannier, what do you think?
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Etaminier from the word étamine. It was a kind of fabric.
He is a fabric manufacturer.
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Before the big black crossed out blob, it looks like an f. What about fournier? Google tells me that's a baker, is that right?
***edited to add - cross posted with previous post. Etaminier fits better, I agree. I didn't know about that occupation :-)
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birth and death of marie , daughter od Claude and Simone 30 april 1680, 3 may 1680, in Authon, claude is said maître ... I read estaminier, Claude the grandfather is said maître cordonnier
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http://www.nogentrev.fr/archives/2015/12/14/33067091.html
"Le bourg d’Authon était lui aussi très impliqué dans cette industrie ( 66,29 % d’artisans/ouvriers dont 47,21% travaillaient pour l’industrie étaminière en l’An IV )."
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another handwriting , there were several "estaminier" in Authon, pewter worker, see page 82
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The parents of Claude LHOMME are Claude LHOMME and Judith DESRATS
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-574%2C-728&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=137&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Burial of Jean LHOMME in 1672, son of Claude LHOMME and Judith DESRATS
Frame 23
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-489%2C-181&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 54
The godmother is a Marie DESRATS, daughter of Pierre DESRATS, merchant.
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-440%2C-398&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=102&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
birth of a son of jacques lhomme (brother of Claude Lhomme )
page 86
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and a Marie DESRATS married a Jacques MENOU
http://gw.geneanet.org/mweisgerber?n=desrats&oc=&p=marie
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Etaminier from the word étamine. It was a kind of fabric.
He is a fabric manufacturer.
I don't think so ,pewter workeri s more likely to be the right occupation , see there:
http://www.discip.ac-caen.fr/aca/serviceseducatifs/pdf/coutances_corporations.pdf
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-440%2C-398&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=102&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
birth of a son of jacques lhomme (brother of Claude Lhomme )
page 86
Son of Jacques LHOMME and Madel(e)ine FOUBERT.
Godfather : Claude LHOMME, uncle, maître étaminier like the father
The godmother is Dina BIARD, daughter of Paul BIARD and Esther DESRATS
http://gw.geneanet.org/mweisgerber?n=desrats&oc=&p=esther
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http://www.nogentrev.fr/archives/2015/12/14/33067091.html
"Le bourg d’Authon était lui aussi très impliqué dans cette industrie ( 66,29 % d’artisans/ouvriers dont 47,21% travaillaient pour l’industrie étaminière en l’An IV )."
au temps pour moi, you are right.
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Etaminier from the word étamine. It was a kind of fabric.
He is a fabric manufacturer.
I don't think so ,pewter workeri s more likely to be the right occupation , see there:
http://www.discip.ac-caen.fr/aca/serviceseducatifs/pdf/coutances_corporations.pdf
Guerre et économie dans l'espace atlantique du XVIe au XXe siècle
https://books.google.fr/books?isbn=286781412X
Silvia Marzagalli, Bruno Marnot - 2006 - Atlantic Ocean
L'industrie étaminière est également ancienne 2. Mais contrairement à l'industrie toilière, cette industrie lainière de demi-luxe est essentiellement urbaine, ...
http://www.nogentrev.fr/archives/2015/12/14/33066904.html
http://www.persee.fr/doc/annor_0003-4134_1985_num_35_4_1691
http://www.persee.fr/doc/annor_0003-4134_1987_num_37_1_2017
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=100&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
death of Suzanne , dauther of Claude delhomme and simone drouin 1 year and a few months old
page 87
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=100&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
birth of Isaac of Claude and Simone
page 83
15th september 1683 authon
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VfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-185%2C-208&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=117&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 56
Jacque LHOMME, serger, witness at the wedding of his friend Louis FAUCHERON/GAUCHERON, marchand
Serger = fabricant de serges https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/serge#fr
So I would go for a fabric manufacturer
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http://www.roelly.org/~pro_picards/identifier.htm
and
http://www.roelly.org/~pro_picards/prenoms.htm
Interesting links about the protestants in Picardie
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-73%2C-102&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 82
Baptism record of Pierre MENOU, son of Jacques MENOU and Marie DES RATS.
Godfather : Isaac ROCHAY, great-uncle, maistre estaminier
Godmother Dina BIARD, his first cousin, daughter of Paul BIARD, marchand drappier, and Esther DESRATS, his cousin.
So Marie and Esther DESRATS are sisters and daughters of Pierre DESRATS, marchand
Now we need to establish their exact relationship with Judith DESRATS
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Unfortunately for us, Isaac ROCHAY seems to be related to the MENOUS
http://gw.geneanet.org/mweisgerber?n=rochay&oc=&p=isaac
His marriage
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-298%2C-649&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=137&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 7
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-107%2C-119&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
View 77
Burial of Claude L'HOMME maître cordonnier, in 1680.
I can't read his age. 68 ?
Claude L'HOMME and Pierre L'HOMME, his two sons, were there. Only Claude L'HOMME signed his name.
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-170%2C-192&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=136&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 88
23/FEB 1683
Burial of Pierre DES RATS, maître étaminier, dead the day before. He was about 68 years old.
W : Paul BIARD, marchand drapier, son in law, and Isaac ROCHAY, marchant étaminier cousin
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-320%2C-207&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 90
Baptism record of Isaac L'HOMME, son of Claude L'HOMME and Simonne DROUIN or DROUËN
Godfather : Jacques BIENFAIT, maître étaminier, his cousin
Godmother : Marthe SIMON, his first cousin, wife of Isaac MENOU le jeune, marchand
http://gw.geneanet.org/mweisgerber?lang=en&iz=8727&p=jacques&n=bienfait
I found the marriage record of Jacques BIENFAICT in 1669
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-592%2C-172&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=137&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 11
son of Auguste BIENFAICT, marchand, and Anne MENOU
daughter of the late Jouachim RIDOU, vivant archer de la maréchaussée de Chateaudun, and Judith GUELOT
She died in 1676
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-308%2C-427&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 55
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-574%2C-728&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=137&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Burial of Jean LHOMME in 1672, son of Claude LHOMME and Judith DESRATS
Frame 23
He was 16.
W : Jacques BIENFAI(C)T, cousin of the deceased.
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=326.3999938964844%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=96&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 34
Burial of Anne DROUET, wife of Pierre DESRATS, marchand
Witnesses
Louys CHEDIEU and Paul BIARD, marchands, " les gendres" sons in law = married to the daughters of Pierre DESRATS and Anne DROUET
Claude LHOMME, cordonnier, " leur beau-frère" brother in law
Jacques LHOMME, ouvrier en laine, "leur neveu" nephew
It seems that Judith DESRATS is a sister of Pierre DESRATS, not his daughter.
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Same page, burial of Louise DESRATS,wife of Louis CHEDIEU. She was about 28 years old.
Witnesses :
Pierre DESRATS, her father
Paul BIARD, her brother in law
Jacques LHOMME, her first cousin
Jacques MENOU le jeune, also her cousin
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Found the marriage of Claude homme and Simone Drouin 20th of march 1678 in Authon du Perche (nowadays in the département of Eure et Loir)
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-552%2C-586&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=142&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Page 63/96
Claude Lhomme , "étaminnier"? ,son of Claude Lhomme , "cordonnier" "shoemaker" and Judith ? his father and mother, living in Authon and Simone drouin ... Authon, daughter of .... , merchant, and ....living in St martin de nigelles have attended claude lhomme , father of the groom, jaques and peter brothers of the groom, jacques ....the young merchant living in Authon , his cousin.....
signatures
For the father of Simonne DROUIN, may be the late Gedeon DROUIN, merchant, and the late Simonne H...
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-107%2C-119&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
View 77
Burial of Claude L'HOMME maître cordonnier, in 1680.
I can't read his age. 68 ?
Claude L'HOMME and Pierre L'HOMME, his two sons, were there. Only Claude L'HOMME signed his name.
I read:
"Le mesme jour 19 7bre 1680, j'ay inhumé le corps de Claude Lhomme maistre cordonnier demeurant à Authon auquel enterrement ont assisté Claude lhomme et pierre lhomme ses 2 fils tous deux maistres estaminiers demeurant audit authon lesquels dit que claude lhomme ..... le mesme jour au matin agé d'environ 68 ans ledit claude lhomme a signé pierre lhomme ayant déclaré ne le pouvoir...de ce interpellé suivant l'ordonnance"
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7 bre = septembre
8bre =octobre
9bre=novembre
10 bre or Xbre = decembre
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found mariage Claude delhomme and Judith Desrats 25th june 1648
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3MjY7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-3335%2C-1573&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=252&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 11
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can it be the baptism of judith desrats?
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3MjY7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-1731%2C-1135&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=196&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Vue 13
Marriage of Paul BIARD and Esther DESRAT(S) in 1665 (07/APR/1665)
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3MjY7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-399%2C-682&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=177&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
View 8 - Marriage in 1613 Pierre DES RATS and Judit MENOU (14/APR/1613)
Same page Marriage of Daniel DESRATS and Anne HAQUIN in 1614
Nicolas DROUET and Judit DESRATS in 1617
View 10 marriage of Pierre DESRAT and Anne DROUET in 1639
View 11 marriage of Auguste BIENFAIT and Anne MENOU in 1648
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I think there's a couple of other Desrats marriages earlier, too - though I could perhaps have read things incorrectly:
1604: Gernais ?? Pezze married Anne Desrats, fille de Nicolas Desrats et de Catrin Fromond (p3)
1610: Martin VOISIN married Elizabet Desrats, fille de Nicolas Desrats et de Catrin Fromond (p8)
...could possibly be sisters (or maybe cousins) of Pierre and Daniel Desrats?
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Unfortunately for us, Isaac ROCHAY seems to be related to the MENOUS
http://gw.geneanet.org/mweisgerber?n=rochay&oc=&p=isaac
His marriage
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-298%2C-649&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=137&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 7
**and quoted from a different post:
"Baptism record of Pierre MENOU, son of Jacques MENOU and Marie DES RATS.
Godfather : Isaac ROCHAY, great-uncle, maistre estaminier
Godmother Dina BIARD, his first cousin, daughter of Paul BIARD, marchand drappier, and Esther DESRATS, his cousin."
...So....my brain's getting in a tangle but if Isaac Rochay is the great uncle of Pierre Menou, then I wonder if we can link the ancestry of Pierre and his father Jacques back to Marie Desrats mother Judit Menou? I had thought that Isaac Rochay's wife Marthe Menou could have been Judit's sister, but that would put him one generation too far back (great great uncle instead of great uncle) and a bit early for a 1669 marriage. Perhaps Judit had a brother, who then had a daughter Marthe ? I guess that would be around 1640 if so.
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found the birth of Claude Lhomme son of Claude and Judith Desrats in 1659
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDktMDEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3MjU7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=453.8999938964844%2C73&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=70&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
page 58
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Claude Lhomme (cordonnier, shoemaker) and Judith Desrats (born 1630 in Authon) married in 1648 in Authon , they had :
Judith, Jacques, Jean ,Pierre,Marie, Claude (born in 1659 in Authon)
Claude Lhomme ( born 1659, estaminier) married Simone Drouin in 1678 in Authon, they had :
Françoise Magdeleine,Joseph, Suzanne,Marie, Isaac,, Claude (born in 1678 in Authon)
Claude Lhomme (born 1678) marrried Anne Juvin , they had:
Jacques, Pierre, Claude, Louise ,Mare Anne, Christine, Denise, Anne
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDktMDEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3MjU7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-378%2C-330&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=127&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 52
Baptism record of Jaques LHOMME 26/APR/1654
Frame 54
Baptism record of Jan LHOMME 12/MAR/1656
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDktMDEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3MjU7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-1063%2C-1379&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=197&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 62
Baptism record of Pierre LHOMME 13/APR/1664
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I think there's a couple of other Desrats marriages earlier, too - though I could perhaps have read things incorrectly:
1604: Gernais ?? Pezze married Anne Desrats, fille de Nicolas Desrats et de Catrin Fromond (p3)
1610: Martin VOISIN married Elizabet Desrats, fille de Nicolas Desrats et de Catrin Fromond (p8)
...could possibly be sisters (or maybe cousins) of Pierre and Daniel Desrats?
Gervais PEZZE, son of the late Pierre PEZZE and Marguerite CHASSAING, and ANNE DES RATS, daughter of Nicolas DES RATS and Caterine FREMOND (not sure for the last letters but in 1610 it's FREMOND) 18/JUL/1604
Yes, I think they are relatives because Pierre DESRATS is a cousin once removed of François PEZZE, son of Paul PEZZE
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-824%2C-824&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=146&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 2
Baptism (26/FEB/1668) and burial (26/MAR/1668)
Pierre DES RATS cousin paternel issu de germain, marchand
Pierre DESRATS and Paul PEZZE are first cousins.
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http://abpo.revues.org/827?file=1
ABSTRACT
The protestant community of Authon-du-Perche, near Chartres, appears in our
sources in 1598, with a minister’s arrival. The Church holds until the Revocation
of the Edict of Nantes – in 1685 – and we principally know its life by its register of
births, marriages and deaths and its deeds. We find a majority of rich and middle-
class population, who quickly acquired good religious knowledge and new habits,
that means a real adherence to the new religion. The Calvinists are a minority
within the village. Nevertheless, the catholic records emphasize the good rela-
tionships between members of the two communities, the bonds which unite them
and the efforts made to limit tensions. However, in the end of the century, relations
between the communities deteriorate because of Louis XIV’s political choices : he
wants to eradicate protestant people of his kingdom. So, the Calvinist community
withdraws into itself, without disappearing totally yet.
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I think there's a couple of other Desrats marriages earlier, too - though I could perhaps have read things incorrectly:
1604: Gernais ?? Pezze married Anne Desrats, fille de Nicolas Desrats et de Catrin Fromond (p3)
1610: Martin VOISIN married Elizabet Desrats, fille de Nicolas Desrats et de Catrin Fromond (p8)
...could possibly be sisters (or maybe cousins) of Pierre and Daniel Desrats?
Gervais PEZZE, son of the late Pierre PEZZE and Marguerite CHASSAING, and ANNE DES RATS, daughter of Nicolas DES RATS and Caterine FREMOND (not sure for the last letters but in 1610 it's FREMOND) 18/JUL/1604
Yes, I think they are relatives because Pierre DESRATS is a cousin once removed of François PEZZE, son of Paul PEZE
http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMzEiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTA3Mjg7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=-824%2C-824&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=146&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 2
Baptism (26/FEB/1668) and burial (26/MAR/1668)
Pierre DES RATS cousin paternel issu de germain, marchand
Pierre DESRATS and Paul PEZZE are first cousins.
I'm getting a bit confused with the generations here...Pierre des Rats, husband of Judith Menou and father of Pierre et Judith des Rats, had a sister who married a Pezze, and had a son, Paul, is that right? Pierre, father of Marie (marraine at the baptism of Francois) is therefore the cousin of Paul (and Paul, in turn, is the son of Germain). Can we presume that Germain / Gervais could be the same person? If I can find the baptism of Paul, and link him to Anne Des Rats and Gervais Pezze, we would know that Pierre (husband of Judith Menou) was brother to Anne, and would therefore be able to take our des Rats line back one more generation to Nicolas des Rats and Caterine Fremond.
In other words, is there yet enough evidence to suggest it could look like this:
Nicolas des Rats et Caterine Fremond have:
Anne
Elizabet
?? Pierre
?? Daniel
Anne marries Gervais Pezze in 1604 (and have a son, Paul)
Elizabet marries Martin Voisin in 1608
?? Pierre marries Judith menou in 1613 (and have a son Pierre, and daughter Judith)
?? Daniel marries Anne Haquin in 1614
Or have I got it all in a tangle?
I'll have a hunt for the baptism of Paul and see who his parents were.
Thanks again for your all your help on this :-)
Jenni
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No luck finding the baptism of Paul Pezze to see if there's a link as above, but I've found a few more children of Judit Menou and Pierre des Rats:
p 15: Pierre (who we knew already, can't remember if baptism already linked to?) b 1617 (I think) parrain Josue Menou, marraine Judit des Rats
p 16: Anne, b c. 1619 (very hard to read) parrain Jacques Brunet, marraine ?? (Jacques Brunet is married to Susanne Menou)
p 17: b. 1621 Ester (who we already knew about) Parrain is ?? Pezze, marraine Ester des Rats
p19: b. 1624 ?? Suzanne. parrain Paul Menou, marraine ???
p 21: b. 1626 Marie (who we already knew about) parrain Jacques Menou, marraine Marie ???
p 22: b. 1628 Josue parrain Jacques de galloy marrain Renee ???
Also... I'm on page 31 of 68 (around 1640) and there are no L'Homme family members mentioned. I wonder if they perhaps came from elsewhere, and Claude senior is the first one to come here?
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http://abpo.revues.org/827?file=1
En revanche, Ambroise Pezze et Madeleine
Germond alternent entre baptêmes selon l’ordonnance catholique et bap-
têmes protestants : Gervais, né en 1598, Madeleine, née en 1599, Marie,
née en 1606, Antoine, né en 1613 et Ambroise, né en 1617, sont baptisés
à l’église, alors que Paul, né en 1609, Jacques, né en 1611 et Jean, né en
1614, sont baptisés au temple. Aucun ordre ne semble pouvoir se déga-
ger de leurs choix. Toutefois, l’éducation maternelle prévalant et influen-
çant souvent les enfants, à l’âge adulte, Jacques Pezze, bien que baptisé
protestant, choisit la religion catholique.
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Cousin paternel issu de germain means : boy or man son of the father's cousin.
For you a " cousin germain" is a nephew of your father or your mother, a " cousine germaine" is a niece of your father or mother.
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I found no L'homme or Delhomme from 1598 to Claude L'homme and Judith Desrats, I also think that they came from elsewhere
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Cousin paternel issu de germain means : boy or man son of the father's cousin.
For you a " cousin germain" is a nephew of your father or your mother, a " cousine germaine" is a niece of your father or mother.
Ha! oops....I shouldn't have trusted Google translate ;-) Thanks!
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Cousin paternel issu de germain means : boy or man son of the father's cousin.
For you a " cousin germain" is a nephew of your father or your mother, a " cousine germaine" is a niece of your father or mother.
Ha! oops....I shouldn't have trusted Google translate ;-) Thanks!
First cousin = cousin germain
Cousin once removed = cousin issu de germain ou cousin au deuxième degré
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Cousin paternel issu de germain means : boy or man son of the father's cousin.
For you a " cousin germain" is a nephew of your father or your mother, a " cousine germaine" is a niece of your father or mother.
Ha! oops....I shouldn't have trusted Google translate ;-) Thanks!
First cousin = cousin germain
Cousin once removed = cousin issu de germain ou cousin au deuxième degré
I'm confused. What do you say in French for just a normal cousin? As in, the child of one of your parents' siblings? (i.e. they share the same grandparents.)
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cousin or cousin germain
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We say cousin , but cousin germain means the same
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cousin or cousin germain
Ah, ok. I get it now. I didn't realise it was either /or. Thank you :-)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_(famille)
http://www.guide-genealogie.com/guide/parente.html
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...and I'd been imagining there was a chap called Germain who was a merchant, lol. Oops. I'm unlikely to forget it now, though, and am feeling rather inspired to improve my very out of practice and minimal French. Thanks :-)
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_(famille)
http://www.guide-genealogie.com/guide/parente.html
Ah..thank you. That will help a lot :-)
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...and I'd been imagining there was a chap called Germain who was a merchant, lol. Oops. I'm unlikely to forget it now, though, and am feeling rather inspired to improve my very out of practice and minimal French. Thanks :-)
I understood that that's why I intervened to make things clear.
The status of "Cousin" was important in those days .
A "cousin germain" is the closest cousin you can have. And of course you can have a "cousin germain"named Germain (name or surname). ??? :'(
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Claude Lhomme (cordonnier, shoemaker) and Judith Desrats (born 1630 in Authon) married in 1648 in Authon , they had :
Judith, Jacques, Jean ,Pierre,Marie, Claude (born in 1659 in Authon)
Claude Lhomme ( born 1659 in Authon, estaminier) married Simone Drouin in 1678 in Authon, they had :
Françoise Magdeleine,Joseph, Suzanne,Marie, Isaac (all born in St Martin De Nigelles), Jacques? born in 1693 in St martin de Nigelles ,Claude (born in 1678 in Authon)
Claude Lhomme born 1678 in Authon)[/b] marrried Anne Juvin ( where? and When exactly ?, around 1701), they had:
Jacques, Pierre, Claude, Louise ,Marie Anne, Christine, Denise, (all born in St Martin de Nigelles after 1702) Anne, born in Ecluzelles 1702
Claude Lhomme , once came to Authon , married Judith born in Authon, they stayed in Authon till they died.
Claude Lhomme was born in Authon, he married Simone of St martin de Nigelles ( as said in the marriage record 1678 Authon she and / or her parents lived in St Martin ), their first child was born in Authon in 1678 then they moved to St martin de Nigelles where all their other children were born (and died Joseph 1693)
Claude Lhomme , born in Authon , 20 in 1698 renounced the protestant faith and came back to the catholic faith ( possibly a forced renouncement, anyway an untrue one ) married Anne (where and when? around 1701 , probably in Ecluzelles ), their first child Anne was born in Ecluzelles in 1702. The others were born in St martin de Nigelles till 1719.
In 1723 Claude and his family are found in London.
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No luck finding the baptism of Paul Pezze to see if there's a link as above, but I've found a few more children of Judit Menou and Pierre des Rats:
p 15: Pierre (who we knew already, can't remember if baptism already linked to?) b 1617 (I think) parrain Josue Menou, marraine Judit des Rats
p 16: Anne, b c. 1619 (very hard to read) parrain Jacques Brunet, marraine ?? (Jacques Brunet is married to Susanne Menou)
p 17: b. 1621 Ester (who we already knew about) Parrain is ?? Pezze, marraine Ester des Rats
p19: b. 1624 ?? Suzanne. parrain Paul Menou, marraine ???
p 21: b. 1626 Marie (who we already knew about) parrain Jacques Menou, marraine Marie ???
p 22: b. 1628 Josue parrain Jacques de galloy marrain Renee ???
Also... I'm on page 31 of 68 (around 1640) and there are no L'Homme family members mentioned. I wonder if they perhaps came from elsewhere, and Claude senior is the first one to come here?
16: Anne, b c. 1619 (very hard to read) parrain Jacques Brunet, marraine ?? (Jacques Brunet is married to Susanne Menou)
Godmother : may be Anne RENAUT
p 17: b. 1621 Ester (who we already knew about) Parrain is ?? Pezze, marraine Ester des Rats
Godfather Pierre PEZZE
p19: b. 1624 ?? Suzanne. parrain Paul Menou, marraine ???
Godmother : Suzanne BRUNET
p 21: b. 1626 Marie (who we already knew about) parrain Jacques Menou, marraine Marie ???
Godmother Marie FOUEST or a name alike
p 22: b. 1628 Josue parrain Jacques de galloy marrain Renee ???
Godmother damoiselle Renée DU, DE or DES SOUCHAIS ?
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Marie RENAULT wife of Jacques MENOU
http://gw.geneanet.org/ecouvret?lang=fr&pz=ellen&nz=couvret&ocz=0&p=marie&n=regnault&oc=10
http://gw.geneanet.org/janoumenot?lang=fr&iz=83623&p=marie+2&n=regnault
http://gw.geneanet.org/mweisgerber?lang=fr&iz=8727&p=marie&n=renault&oc=3
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http://www.archives28.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDgtMjciO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6MjtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6NjE0ODtzOjE2OiJ2aXNpb25uZXVzZV9odG1sIjtiOjE7czoyMToidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbF9tb2RlIjtzOjQ6InByb2QiO30#uielem_move=-368%2C-274&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=123&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
Frame 36
Christening of Madalene DELOUME, daughter of Claude LHOUME and Simonne DROIN
I read :The year being 1695 ( as written on the first record page 28)
le ving cinq ième jour de novembre ....magdeleine de lhomme issue du mariage de claude delhomme et simonne drouin a été baptisée le même jour par moi sous signé curé de cette paroisse le parrain a été messire gaston de tranchillion seigneur de la tourneuve(see here page 10 :http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Tranchelion.pdf).... et la marraine madeleine agard femme de messire achile de Long... ... de la paroisse d'Arigny?) .... qui on signé
marriage record of gaston de tranchillion 1695 november 24th page 36
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Is it wishful thinking on my part that I read "francoise" just before the "madeleine" ? Definitely looks like there's an f in there (immediately below the c of cinq), though I have no idea what the first few letters of that second line say - perhaps the f belongs to those words instead.
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Is it wishful thinking on my part that I read "francoise" just before the "madeleine" ? Definitely looks like there's an f in there (immediately below the c of cinq), though I have no idea what the first few letters of that second line say - perhaps the f belongs to those words instead.
You're right it could be françoise, but I am puzzled about what comes before this word , this handwriting is terrible
It is fransoize , I compared with another more easily readible fransoize.
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I have no idea if this would even make grammatical sense, but there's no chance it could be "a este nee" ? As in, it's recording both her birth and baptism? I only wonder this because of the bit that says "la meme jour" later on - the same day as what?
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I have no idea if this would even make grammatical sense, but there's no chance it could be "a este nee" ? As in, it's recording both her birth and baptism? I only wonder this because of the bit that says "la meme jour" later on - the same day as what?
yes it must be "été née..." on the same day than the baptism
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Looking more closely to the name of Anne (wife of the third Claude Lhomme) , I think that her surname was Tuvin
In 1717 the curate name Reverend writes her name like this :J'ay curé d'ici baptisé...,
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And look how he writes Thomas and Jacques
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The curate named Fontenoy writes her name like this :
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And he writes the J and T like that :