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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Wrexthedragon on Thursday 13 April 17 08:15 BST (UK)
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Hi, I have just been on a wild goose chase (not the first ???)! I have a marriage certificate dated 1873 with the father of the bride (including his “mark”) on it.
I have been searching for the father on the 1871 census (and earlier) only to find that he died sometime between 1855 and 1861!
Is this common? I guess I can understand the father being mentioned but I’m surprised his mark has been put there be someone.
I will not make the assumption in future that a parent mentioned on a marriage certificate was still alive at the time of the marriage. It’s sure to save me hours of unnecessary searching! Lesson learnt! Hope it helps others too :)
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???
The only signatures (or marks) on a marriage certificate are:
the bride and groom
the witnesses
the registrar/priest/vicar
Father of the bride doesn't sign, or mark?
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Hi
If it's a witness signature (X), could it be the brother of the bride who had the same first name as the father?
KR
Gaie
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Good theory but there wasn't a brother with the same name as the father in this case.
Edward Hayes (father of the bridegroom was also deceased and a witness signed in his absence.
See attached scan of certificate
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Robert Jones must have been a different person - you can't witness on behalf of someone else. So if it is him he hadn't already died, but it isn't uncommon for the word "deceased" not to be shown - so he may well have died before the wedding and this is another relative.
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If the bride's father had died before the marriage he (obviously) can't have been present to witness to it.
So the person who did witness must have been someone else who coincidentally had the same name. You can't be a witness on behalf of someone else.
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Hi
The witnesses who both signed with an X appear to be Robert Jones and Emma Paydd..ch.
KR
Gaie
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This is getting over-confusing. Putting it simply.....
Emma Prydderch was a witness for the bridegroom as his father (Edward Hayes) was deceased
Robert Jones was a witness for the bride as her father (also Robert Jones) was deceased.
It seems quite a coincidence that the bride's witness had the same name as the bride's deceased father and it wasn't her brother.
But I guess coincidences do happen!
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Witnesses to a marriage are just that, they are not allocated to either bride nor groom.
KR
Gaie
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It isn't necessary for the witnesses to be related to the bride & groom!
They can be anyone at all - in many cases they are church officials! ;D
For my 2nd marriage, the witnesses were two friends.
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Could Robert Jones be a cousin?
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Ok, the witness in this case was a red herring!
I won't assume in future that the father of the bride or groom are alive at the time of the marriage.
Thanks for the prompt replies/advice all :)
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I won't assume in future that the father of the bride or groom are alive at the time of the marriage.
There have been quite a few threads on Rootschat on this subject. The conclusion all of them have reached is that you shouldn't assume that the father was still alive. Sometimes the word 'deceased' was added after his name sometimes not. If depended a great deal on whether the question 'is your father still alive' was asked, or, if it wasn't, whether the information was offered by the couple.
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Yes, it depends on whether the prospective couple were asked or volunteered the information that their fathers were deceased, and whether the official chose to record it! Or even if they knew or answered honestly!!
KR
Gaie
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And "deceased" fathers may not really be dead or even ever have existed. I have several examples where an illegitimate bride or groom has made up a father's name and said they wee deceased. Or more likely, that is what their mother told them at an early age to explain the absence of a father and they believed it was the truth.
Also I have come across a case where the father deserted the family and he was recorded as deceased on his child's marriage record but was actually still alive, presumably he had severed all ties with the family and they thought he had died.
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I was a once witness to a marriage at Thetford Register Office.
I was walking past the office wearing my No 1 RAF uniform. They only had two pictures taken; one of the happy couple and one of the couple with both of us witnesses. The bride went to great lengths to get my full name so that she would know, in years to come, who was on the wedding photograph. I never saw the couple nor the other witness ever again.
Regards
Chas
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He could have been a cousin.
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deleted
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Was you John Hayes born c 1846, Hope, Flintshire?
If so the Marriage Witness may have been a step brother;
1861 Census
Hope, Flintshire
Edward Jones, 45
Frances Jones, 40
John HEYES, 15, Stepson******
Elizabeth Heyes, Stepdaug, 12
Robert JONES, 11, Son, Son of Head****
John Jones, 9
Frances Jones, 3
George Jones, 1
Death Reg Gro Index;
HAYES, EDWARD age 31*******
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 27 Page 202
Marriage Reg FreeBMD
Dec 1842 Wrexham, 27 426
Edward HAYES and Frances GRIFFITHS on same page
Birth Regs Gro Index;
HAYES, JOHN, Mothers maiden name GRIFFITHS ****
GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 27 Page 248
HAYES, ELIZABETH, Mothers maiden name GRIFFITHS ****
GRO Reference: 1849 M Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 27 Page 272
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1851 in Hope;
Frances Hayes, 33, Head, Widow, Pauper, born Hope
Mary Hayes, 7
JOHN Hayes, 4
Elizabeth Hayes, 2
Marriage Reg;
Dec 1856, Gt. Boughton, 8a 498
Frances HAYES and Edward JONES on same page
Trish :)
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Familysearch.Org;
Name Edward Hayes
Event Type Marriage Banns
Event Date 10 Mar 1844
Event Place Hope, Flintshire, Wales
Spouse's Name Frances Griffiths
Marriage took place 18 April
F/S has a EDWARD Hayes baptism: 4 April 1819. Hope, Flintshire
Possible 1841 Census in Northop, Flintshire;
Eward Hayes, 20, Painter
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I'm surprised that anybody is surprised that there might be two unrelated Robert Joneses on a document from Wales, especially in the C19th.
People seem to think the name is about as frequent as Smith is in England. It is much, much commoner than that and was more so back then before immigration from England and elsewhere. I'll try to find some stats.
I was at school with hordes of Jones (and Williams and Davies) and in one primary class there were two boys both called John Edward Jones who each had to be assigned a number!
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Was what I posted what you have Wrexthedragon.?
A couple of Trees I looked at havent made the connection that Frances was mn Grifffiths, then Hayes and lastly Jones.
Trish :)
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Hi Trish you've been busy! Yes I have what you've posted all with the exception of the last mention of Eward Hayes in the 1841 census. I think the entry I want is In Leeswood and the entries have been lost!
Regarding Robert Jones being the step-brother it's a very good possibility and I was so focused on the brides father I hadn't considered it! Thank you very much for your replies 😀
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Your welcome :)
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And "deceased" fathers may not really be dead or even ever have existed. I have several examples where an illegitimate bride or groom has made up a father's name and said they wee deceased. Or more likely, that is what their mother told them at an early age to explain the absence of a father and they believed it was the truth.
Also I have come across a case where the father deserted the family and he was recorded as deceased on his child's marriage record but was actually still alive, presumably he had severed all ties with the family and they thought he had died.
In one of my cases I'd not sure if my great. great grandfather lied or the person recording his father misunderstood (and wasn't corrected) - he was illegimate - his father being named on his baptism as Thomas Williams - he's on his son's marriage certificate - with the correct occupation as Thomas HisSurname (ie mothers maiden name) - I'm envisaging him being asked what his father's name was, him saying (correctly) Thomas - and the person recording assuming the surnames were the same
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[/quote]In one of my cases I'd not sure if my great. great grandfather lied or the person recording his father misunderstood (and wasn't corrected) - he was illegimate - his father being named on his baptism as Thomas Williams - he's on his son's marriage certificate - with the correct occupation as Thomas HisSurname (ie mothers maiden name) - I'm envisaging him being asked what his father's name was, him saying (correctly) Thomas - and the person recording assuming the surnames were the same
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I had very similar which took me down a dead end route for years. On Marriage Certificate, father was named as George Burns, when in actual fact, the groom was illegitimate, his mother's husband (married when he was around 4 years old) was named George Bott. I assume that he was asked his father's name and said George, and the registrar (or vicar) assumed it was George Burns. I don't believe, or will never really know, there was any intention to mislead, because all through life, and on censuses etc, he was referred to as Step Son.