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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: Amy149 on Friday 14 April 17 17:25 BST (UK)
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I've been doing my family tree ans I've hit ab it of a road block....
my great grandmother Louisa Gwynne Williams born 1887 and her 2 sisters (Margaret and Mary Jane) where apparently orphaned at an early age, but we cannot seem to find out what happened to their parents (mother Louisa and father Henry).
We know they lived at Cwmllethryd Fawr Farm with his family for a while but then the whole family seems to disappear and i cant seem to make sense of it. if anyone could help it would be much appreciated.
Amy
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Hi Amy and Welcome to Rootschat :)
Is Cwmllethryd Fawr Farm the one in Carmarthenshire?
Gadget
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hi,
yeah that's the one, they all seem to be there until about 1871 then I can't seem to track them.
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is this the family in 1881?
Cwmllethryd Uchaf Farm, Westfa, Llanelly RG11/5375 folio 66 pg4
Henry Williams head mar 32 farmer of 61 acres
Louisa wife 27 b. Llanon
Mary J daughter 1
Margaret dau 7 months
Elizabeth Bowen servant 16 b. Llanon
all born Llanelly except where noted
possible marriage
Henry Williams & Louisa White both on march qtr 1878 Llanelly vol 11a pg 720
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat, to give us some guidance is this the family in 1881 census:-
Henry Williams 32 occ Farmer of 61 acres b Llanelly
Louisa 27 b Llanon
Mary J 1 b Llanelly
Margaret A 7 months b Llanelly
Residing at Cwmllethryd Uchal Farm, Llanelly
Census Ref RG11/5375/66/4
Henry Williams 27 occ Farmer Father William Williams
Louisa White 22 Father David White
22nd March 1878 Dafen
Henry was residing at Cwmllethryd Uchal Farm, and Louisa at Goitre Fawr in the parish of St Marys, Swansea.
So when was Louisa G born?
Keyboard86
OK if correct just given marriage as seen red writing!!
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notice of liquidation from 17 March 1880
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3509360/3509367/56/cwmllethryd
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Thats all really helpful, Thank you and that newspaper article is really interesting but I'm struggling to see what happened to them from then, because the family story is that the 3 girls where sent to live with an aunt who treated them like slaves but I cant seem to find deaths to match Henry and louisa to explain why this would have happened.
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Could this be the three girls in 1891:
Monmouth
RG12/4342/38/3
William Williams, widower, 37, Waggoner
Mary J, d, 11
Margret Anne, d, 10
Louisa, d. 3
All born Llanelly.
Not sure as the girls are down as William's daughters. Did Henry have a brothe called William?
Gadget
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The ages are a little bit different but I've found they can be with these records. yes Henry does have a brother William, so this could definitely be correct but what happened to their parents? why are they with their uncle?
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possible death for Louisa?
Louisa Williams 35 dec qtr 1890 Monmouth vol 11a pg 24
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Looks good, Osprey - fits with the 1891 info.
Amy - ages on the 1891 fit with those on the 1881 :)
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Hi do not know where the Gwynn/e middle name came from as the Louisa on the 1891 her birth was registered as Louisa Williams Dec qtr 1887 Llanelly v11a page 789 mmn White
Keyboard86
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there's a burial for Louisa in Llanvihangel Ystern Llewern on 17 Dec 1890, abode Red House, Talycoed. The Williams family are in Tycoch next to Talycoed Court.
;)
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this is all really helpful, thank you. Thats really confirming the family stories that the 3 girls where orphaned at an early age, so if the mother Louisa died 1890 the girls would have been between 15 and 3 years old but 1891 they are living with there uncle, so what happened to henry?
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it may be helpful to get a copy of Louisa's death reg to see how she is described - widow of Henry or wife of.
Have you found any of the girls in 1901? Do you know who & when they married? Just to see if we can see later traces.
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if the mother Louisa died 1890 the girls would have been between 15 and 3 years old but 1891 they are living with there uncle, so what happened to henry?
What birthdate do you have for Mary J as both the 1881 and the 1891 have her born circa 1880?
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GRO index has their births as:
WILLIAMS, MARY JANE Mmn WHITE
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 726
WILLIAMS, MARGARET ANN Mmn WHITE
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 669
Cas
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That's what I would think, Cas. It's just that Amy mentioned a 15 year old - I wondered if there was an earlier Mary J who might have died. Also, there is a big gap between Margaret and Louisa - possibly some births/pregnancies that didn't survive.
I've been trying to find any of them in 1901 but not seeing anything definite. Two Louisa G Williams marriages in 1913 and 1915 that might fit but need that info from Amy.
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RC member roycymru has given some info about the family on this 2010 thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=382093.msg3232485#msg3232485
I'll PM him to draw his attention to this thread,
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GRO index has their births as:
WILLIAMS, MARY JANE Mmn WHITE
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 726
WILLIAMS, MARGARET ANN Mmn WHITE
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in LLANELLY Volume 11A Page 669
Cas
Hi on the Anc**** tree for Amy ( I presume), Mary Jane Williams is shown as b 1875 Llanelly which is the one with mmn Badger, the reason for the adjustment from c 1879 to 1875 is that when Mary Jane dies as Mary Jane Frampton 18th December 1957 Christchurch, Hants she is recorded as aged 82.
Louisa is on 1901 aged 14 b Corseinon living with her Aunt in Gowerton, 1911 in Birmingham.
Keyboard86
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I passed over the 1901 Louisa because it didn't quite match - born Glamorganshire, etc. So wnet off looking for Uncle William.
Did you pick it up from Amy's tree?
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I passed over the 1901 Louisa because it didn't quite match - born Glamorganshire, etc. So wnet off looking for Uncle William.
Did you pick it up from Amy's tree?
Hi if you look at the address for the 1901 it is in Glamorgan but also in the registration district for Llanelly, Gowerton is listed as Llanelly.
Keyboard
PS Yes the marriages etc of the girls are on Amy's tree!
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I see from the tree that, apart from Henry's death, Amy now has all the info she asked for.
Added - she was b. Llanelly, Carmarthenshire on the 1881 and 1891. It was only when she moved to live with her aunt that her place of birth changed to Glamorgan.
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I'd ignored that Louisa as well because of the place of birth. Both Gowerton & Gorseinon are the other side of the river Loughor from Llanelli & in Glamorgan although they were in the Llanelly registration district until 1935.
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RC member roycymru has given some info about the family on this 2010 thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=382093.msg3232485#msg3232485
I'll PM him to draw his attention to this thread,
Hi Amy
Sorry to come late to this. Gadget alerted me to this thread. I have some information on Henry's father William and his grandfather also called Henry (from whom my line comes). If interested please p.m. Me with your email address and I will sent you an ancestor report. From my records Henry "junior" had siblings, William, Mary Ann, John, David, Letitia/Lettuce and Jane.
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hi everyone,
sorry for the late reply. All this information has been amazing and very interesting.
So from what I can gather Louisa and Henry are living on the farm in 1881 but then in 1891 their 3 daughters are living with William Williams their uncle.
I have bought Louisa's death certificate and it says she dies 12 Dec 1890 the wife of William Williams, But on her daughter Louisa's birth certificate (21st Oct 1887) the fathers name is still Henry Williams (now a hay merchant) so I am assuming Henry dies some time between 1887 and 1891 but I am yet to find a marriage to William or a death for Henry.
Unless Louisa and William didn't actually marry and he just said that she was his wife when she died (is that possible?)
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perfectly possible he just said they were married. It was illegal at that time for a man to marry his dead brother's wife and was until act of 1921
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceased_Wife%27s_Sister%27s_Marriage_Act_1907
which could explain their move to Monmouthshire away from where they were known.
With regard to the birth cert, the father of a child of a married woman was always presumed to be her husband whether or not he was, or unless the actual father was there to register the child.
So if William was Louisa's father, at least you're researching the same family line for her.
::)