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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Bryan60 on Saturday 22 April 17 15:08 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
New to the site and first post.
Looking to see if anyone is researching the Graham families of Shettleston around 18oos. I have traced back to 1841 to a James Graham born to William and Margaret Graham (Addie) (Millerston, Hogganfield, Lanarkshire) but cant find anything about them. Strange thing is, when James dies in 1909,(Glasgow) his father is listed as James Graham and mother as Christina Graham (Cummings). James married Mary Cuthbert in 1862 and this is confirmed on her death cert in 1905. How can the parents change from his marriage cert to his death cert?? Confused........ :-\ :-\
Thanks if anyone can help.
Bryan
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Hello & welcome.
First thing to say is how confident are you that the death cert. is the right James Graham ?
Have you tried to find a James & Christina Graham on the census ?
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for reply... very confident this is the same James as it states widower of Mary Cuthbert on his death cert and his marriage cert. Have tried to look for James and Christina but no success. Cant find a birth cert for James either b: 1841.
Thanks
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Civil Registration didn't start until 1855 in Scotland so you will need to look at the Parish Registers.
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Have tried parish registers Jim on scotlandspeople... drew a blank. I'm starting to think they might have been born in Ireland or somewhere else. ??? ???
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Hi Bryan
Welcome to rootschat
Did the marriage of James Graham & Mary Cuthbert give any information on James parents :-\
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Thanks Rosie,
James marriage cert lists his father as William Graham (farmer) and his mother as Margaret Graham (ms:Addie) but cant find any info on them at all. Really stumping me from getting further back!!
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Welcome from me too :)
What occupation was given for his father 'William' on his death reg?
When he married Mary in 1862, who were the witnesses?
What were Mary's parents' names? Christina and James do seem to have been early used names for Mary and James' children.
Monica
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When you say you had worked back to 1841, is this to a specific census entry? Can you post the details you have? Have you found any thing for him for 1851 & 1861?
Monica
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I have the marriage cert for James and Mary Cuthbert dated 1862 where father is William and mother ia Margaret (ms:Addie) both deceased. James was 21 which means b:1841. The witnesses are listed as David Dunlop for James and Marion Cuthbert for Mary. Mary's parents were david and Janet (ms:Hamilton) . Just to add, my grandads middle name was Cuthbert.
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That age for James fits well with the family's 1871 entry:
James Graham 39 Coal Miner b. Hoggansfield
Mary Graham 32
Christina Graham 9
James Graham 7
David Graham 1
John Steel 28 boarder
Address: Dunns Land, Shettleston
Further children:
Mary born 1866 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQD9-19N
William 1872 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYBN-F2B
Marion baptism 1877 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HR-B4XF
A daughter Margaret's baptism - not clear what year https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HR-B3V5
So we have every name mentioned, William & Margaret, James and Christina, David, except Janet for Mary's mother!
Monica
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Great stuff Monica... Dunns land, thats correct I have this from the census but had no other siblings apart from David, James and Christina. It was William who was listed present at James's death so all the names add up as most are used later in the family when they move to Glasgow. Alas, still no further forward with his mum and dad.. Wiliam & Margaret.
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Who was the informant on his death, is there a chance they would not know his parents names.
When he married he named his parents so they should be right unless he had reason to give false information, when he died someone had to name them.
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Rosie... when James married he named his father and mother as William and Margaret but when he died his son William named James and Christina as his father and mother. When James married, his father and mother were both deceased which made me think perhaps they died when he was really small and his uncle (James) who is listed on the death cert brought the family up.
??? ???
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Just been looking through at we have for James in respect of the 1871 - 1901 censuses. He is pretty consistent overall with his age (except for 1871).
1871 - b. 1832 in Hogganfield
1881 - b. 1841 in Barony Parish
1891 - b. 1842 in Glasgow
1901 - b. 1842 in 'Hoffonfield', Lanarkshire
I saw this entry in 1841 for example:
Widow Graham 45 b. England
James Graham 10 apprentice blacksmith
Address: 29 Brown St, Glasgow Brownfield
Hard to say whether this could be James at this stage isn't it.
Would be good to find some trace of him before his marriage on the the 1841-61 censuses :-\
Confused on a detail on the reporting of James' death. Was it William his son who reported the death or an Uncle James Graham? You have mentioned both. Or do you mean a possible Uncle James Graham could have brought up young James and could explain the confusion on names?
Monica
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Hi Monika,
william was present at his death and is listed as his son but I was thinking James brought the family up after th
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sorry........
of William (his brother) and Margaret (Addie) (his sis in law) Just a thought.
Thanks,
Bryan
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Monika,
Can I copy and paste certs to this page?
Bryan
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You can only post small relevant sections rather that the whole cert here on RC.
Monica
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Presumably a tenant farmer so Hogganfield was on the Frankfield Estate, with to the north, Garnkirk estate.
Skoosh.
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Thanks skoosh. How can I check these older farms for tenancy?
Bryan
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Bryan, I have been trying again to find James in the earlier censuses before his marriage in 1862. The 1841 census he may not show in if he was born after this was taken (6 June).
On the issue of his parents' names, you have William Graham and Margaret Addie (and variants of this) from his 1862 marrriage and then James Graham and Christina Cummings as reported by son William when he died.
Just as an idea. We know his parents show as deceased when he married in 1862. Cannot see any trace so far in 1851 and 1861 for a James Graham born in 1841 +/- 2yrs in Shettleston area or surrounds.
There is however a James Cummings, with father James and Christina. He appears with them in 1851 and 1861 and then no trace. He also shows as a miner by 1861 which fits with James Graham's occupation that you have. Wondering whether by the time James' son William was reporting death, things just got jumbled. Could also explain why the first two born girl and boy were called Christina and James?
I will add the census entries below...
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1851 -
James Cumming 35 b. Lesmahagow, Lanark
Christine Cumming 32 b. Kilninver, Argyllshire
James Cumming 10 b. Barony Parish, Lanark
Jean Cumming 8 b. Barony Parish, Lanark
Cathrine Cumming 6 b. Barony Parish, Lanark
Address: Hogganfield, Shettleston
1861
James Cumming 46 coal miner b. Shettleston
Christina Cumming 46 b. Kilninver, Argyl
James Cumming 19 coal miner b. Shettleston
Jane Cumming 17 b. Shettleston
Alexr Cumming 13 coal miner b. Shettleston
John Cumming 9 b. Shettleston
Marion Cumming 7 b. Shettleston
Anne Cumming 3 b. Shettleston
Address: Rams Horn, Shettleston
From the 1857 birth for Anne, mother is showing as a McCallum.
Monica
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Bryan, you mentioned Millerston for James Graham at the beginning of the posts, in addition to Hogganfield. What is the reason for that? It is just that by the time of the 1871, we have Millerston also coming up for the Cummings family above.
From 1871:
Christina Cumming 57 b. Argyll
Jane Cumming 26 b. Millerston, Shettleston
Alexander Cumming 23 coal miner b. Millerston, Shettleston
John Cumming 19 coal miner b. Millerston, Shettleston
Ann Cumming 13 b. Millerston, Shettleston
Address: Rams Horn, Shettleston
Monica
Added: See Hogganfield and Millerston are side by side, I think...!
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Monica - I wondered about that James Cummings as well as I found him in 1841, age 1 month with his parents James and Christina and they were living at Millerston. This was on Freecen and as I couldn't find the entry on Ancestry I did a search with first names and ages and they are transcribed as Cammings on there. Had picked up the 1857 birth of Anne but haven't had time to look further for possible census entries. I see you have found them. Looks a possible, but why the change of surname in 1862 and the wrong parents?
Isobel
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Bryan has asked me to add the two snippets with parents' details for James Graham.
Below is his parents' details that he gave at the time of his 1862 marriage:
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And parents' details given by son William when father James died in 1909:
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Hogganfield, Millerston is named in the marriage certificate for James and Mary.
I have the family on the 1871 (Dunns Land) census and 1881 census under Maryhill, Possilpark but at this point Christina has disappeared aged around 19yrs leaving James, Mary, James and David at this address.
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... Looks a possible, but why the change of surname in 1862 and the wrong parents?
Isobel
Hi Isobel
I am wondering if James' parents William and Margaret died soon after his birth and he was raised by James Cumming and Christina McCallum. If knowing his parentage, he went by his family name of Graham from his marriage? Can't see any further trace of a James Cumming, son, in later censuses (but we know that is not conclusive though...).
I see from your 1909 death cert, Bryan, that James Graham (possibly James Cumming) also shows as a coal miner as did James Cumming.
Monica
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I have the family on the 1871 (Dunns Land) census and 1881 census under Maryhill, Possilpark but at this point Christina has disappeared aged around 19yrs leaving James, Mary, James and David at this address.
Bryan, would you like details for 1891 and 1901?
Monica
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Bryan, found ref' to a Mr H.Graham who leased coal pits/colliers cottages @ Rock? Garthamlock 1858-61. Scotlandsplaces, OS Name Books. Shettleston parish, so near Hogganfield which adjoins Millerston.
There was also a William Graham farmed in Stepps, Garnkirk Estate which is just east of Millerston.
Skoosh.
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Hi,
Endless possibilities on this one. Real detective work for us all. i would like info from 1891 and 1901 Monica and can you send me details on William Graham skoosh?
Thanks
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1891:
James Graham 49 Ironstone Miner b. Glasgow
Mary Graham 51 b. Carnwarth, Lanarkshire
David Graham 21 blacksmith b. Glasgow
William Graham 18 butcher b. Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Maggie Graham 16 b. Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Marrion Graham 14 b. Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Charles Waugh 33 boarder
Address: Hillhead, Barony/Maryhill
1901:
James Graham 59 coal miner
Mary Graham 61
Thomas Straiton 23 son in law shoemaker b. Campsie Stirlingshire
Maggie Straiton 26 wife
James Straiton 2 months
Rose A Straiton 14 sister
John Mcdougall 73 boarder
Address: Hillend House, Barony/Maryhill
Monica
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Isobel, is this the 1841 entry you mentioned?:
James Cummings 25 coal miner
Christina Cummings 20
N K Cummings 1 Month
Address: Millerston, Barony
Monica
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No wiser as to who William Graham and Margaret Addie were, but James Cumming and Christina McCallum show as his adopted parents. James Graham signed his adopted father, James Cumming's death cert in 1868:
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Yes, that's the one Monica. I realise now that the child is not named, so not conclusively James. But given that we now have a definite link to the Cummings and they have no older children listed in later census ( though of course that 1841 child could have subsequently died) I would think he is a good contender for James Graham which would mean he was with them almost from birth.
Isobel
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Bryan, that's all I have on William Graham. Stepps farm was roughly where the present Coop on Cumbernauld Road is, Garnkirk. Might be a burial in Chryston kirkyard?
Skoosh.
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There seems to be really poor OPRs for Shettleston. Hard to see much there pre 1855.
James Graham's 1862 marriage was Church of Scotland.
Stuck now trying to think how to move on parents William and Margaret... :-\
Monica
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Bryan, check Chryston Kirkyard, Shettleston Old Parish & even Riddrie Cemetery,
http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/
Another excellent site is,
http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/
Skoosh.
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No wiser as to who William Graham and Margaret Addie were, but James Cumming and Christina McCallum show as his adopted parents. James Graham signed his adopted father, James Cumming's death cert in 1868:
Could you send me the full cert for this Monica to my e-mail address?
Thanks
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Bryan, check Chryston Kirkyard, Shettleston Old Parish & even Riddrie Cemetery,
Two Willliams in Riddrie Park but too young to be him Skoosh. None in any of the rest.
http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/
Another excellent site is,
http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/
Skoosh.
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Could you send me the full cert for this Monica to my e-mail address?
Thanks
I did earlier ;)
Monica
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cant seem to find it Monica. Could you send again if you dont mind please?
Thanks
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Sure. Will resend now :)
Monica
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Just a thought about all this..........
James Graham is born 1841 and his parents William and Margaret (Addie) both die. He is adopted by his uncle James and Christina Graham (Cummings). As he is adopted he signs James Graham's death cert in 1868 as his adopted son, and by this time has his own son named William (called after his natural father) who then signs James's death cert in 1909 unaware of his fathers natural parents William & Margaret.
Seems possible but hey that's geneology for you.
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Just like to say thanks for all the help I received over the weekend with my search. Lots of helpful infomation for me to consider. Alas still at a loss with William & Margaret.
Thanks,
Bryan
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As he is adopted he signs James Graham's death cert in 1868 as his adopted son, and by this time has his own son named William (called after his natural father) who then signs James's death cert in 1909 unaware of his fathers natural parents William & Margaret.
Remember that James shows in a Cummings family (James Cumming and Christina McCallum) household from 1841-61. However, he married in 1862 knowing who his parents were, and naming them as William Graham and Margaret Addie as you have on the cert. When his adopted dad James Cumming died in 1868, you can see from the cert that James first showed as Cummings and then that was scored through and Graham added, including the relationship of adopted son.
There may have been no family connection between the Cummings/McCallums and the natural parents. Impossible to say at this time....but let's stay hopeful ;)
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Looking on ancestry just now for Margaret Addie... there are quite a few born around 1810 in Lanarkshire but I dont subscribe so limited information.Just looking for possibles.
Bryan
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Ancestry won't really help with this type of search, unfortunately. Best sources would be the official site Scotlands People. You can do lots of searches without have to pay to view the actual images. Also, Family Search https://familysearch.org/search and FreeCen can help https://www.freecen.org.uk/
I had a general look too like you in the last few days but hard to pin anything down so far. Also, have to think that there is the possibility maybe that Margaret Addie and William Graham may not have married which could make things a little harder to follow through...more than now that is!
Monica
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Thanks again Monica
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Looking on ancestry just now for Margaret Addie...
You are unlikely to get reliable enlightenment there.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
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Looking on ancestry just now for Margaret Addie...
You are unlikely to get reliable enlightenment there.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
Thanks for your advice Forfarian. I've had a read at your topic.
I currently use Scotlandspeople and have exhausted all my options (and credits) looking for Margaret Addie and thought I may as well look a bit further afield for her. I also use familysearch for cross referencing. Most of my certs and censuses have come from the Scotlandspeople site but sometimes you need to look and think outside the box.
Thanks,
Bryan
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The drawback of looking further afield is that the Scottish birth/baptism, banns/marriages and death information on Ancestry and FamilySearch, and on FindMyPast and MyHeritage among others, is almost all either indexing and transcriptions of the originals which are only available on SP, or trees submitted by other people, many of which are complete fantasy.
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Thanks again.
Any ides on how I can find this woman?
Bryan
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Well, it may be that no record of her birth or baptism has survived, and if she wasn't married to William there obviously wouldn't be a marriage record.
If James was illegitimate, there is a possibility that his arrival in the world might have attracted the usual disapproval of the kirk session, and if their record have survived there might be some information there about his parents. Unfortunately the KS records are not (yet) available online, although they have been digitised. Also they are not indexed, so you just have to plough through them looking for the people of interest.
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Thanks Forfarian,
What about William then? We know from James's marriage cert he was a farmer but died (also Margaret, his mother) sometime between 1841 and James marriage in 1862. Dont know what area though but James was living at Millerston, Hogganfield, Lanarkshire.. Shettleston parish. William may even have come from Ireland / England for all we know.
Hes really making my brick wall even higher. >:( >:(
Bryan
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What about William then? We know from James's marriage cert he was a farmer
There is just one farmer named William Graham in the parish of Barony in 1841: at Lambhill, Maryhill.
William Graham, 30; John Graham, 20; Elizabeth Graham, 25; Margeret Grahm, 20; Helen Graham, 20, plus two servants.
Lambhill is about 4 or 5 miles from Millerston as the crow flies, so it's not impossible. But you would need some other evidence to be sure that this is the right William Graham.
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James's son (my g granda) ended up at Lochside Cottage Lambhill as a pig breeder after being a stone miner for years with his family. I have the census for 1891,1901 & 1911 showing their progress. I dont think this william is mine s there were a lot ofGrahams up there at tht time. I had already saw that family and dismissed them.
Thanks again.
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There was a William Graham living in Millerston in 1841 but he was a Limestone Miner. He was 22.
Isobel
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Any other details of family Isobel. May have been a miner prior to farmer. Farmer listed on James's marriage cert in 1862. Mining seems to run through the family right up to 1900s.
Thanks,
Bryan
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He was with an Elizabeth Graham age 55 and a James Graham age 9 and a Robt Ferguson age 40. Address Millerston.
Isobel
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Thanks Isobel,
Elizabeth Graham could have been his mother but i dont know where this James would fit. He's 9 yrs old which means he was born around 1832 where my James was born 1841.
Bryan
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There are no relationships shown on the 1841 census so James could be a brother/ nephew of William. William is only 22 so 9 year old James can't be his son, but it is not to say William couldn't be the father of the 1841 James.
Isobel
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Interesting find just there Isobel.
I looked at William in the 1841 census and then looked at the 1851 census where he is listed as an agricultural labourer age 33. (he was 32 in the 1841). Farm owners are David & Janet Graham but the interesting point is, the grandsons are Thomas & David Dunlop (ages 11 & 9). David Dunlop was witness at the marriage of James Graham & Mary Cuthbert in 1862.By this time he would be around 20 yrs old.
Mind boggles... ??? ??? What do u think?
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David Dunlop was still working at Auchencree Farm in 1861. Interesting coincidence that the possible William Graham was working on the same farm in 1851. Trying to work out what the relationship was, if any, between David Graham Snr and Janet ( who also seems to have been born Graham) and this William who was working for them in 1851. The Dunlop children are the sons of a Thomas Dunlop and Elizabeth Graham. She appears to have been born in 1816 to David and Janet.
Isobel
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Possible that David snr and Janet were Williams aunt & uncle?? William was dead by 1862 by the time James was marrying Mary Cuthbert.
I think then that William, who was born around 1818, may have been Elizabeths brother.
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Isobel, is this Auchengree? still exists, Garnkirk estate. The lairds were coincidentally Dunlop's.
https://www.geni.com/people/James-Dunlop-of-Garnkirk/6000000024247171840
Skoosh.
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Yes Skoosh, its Auchengree that has come up in the census search.
Thanks,
Bryan