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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Jan48 on Wednesday 26 April 17 11:30 BST (UK)
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Born Catherine Murphy Bagenalstown Co Carlow 1833. Marr Thomas Nolan Bagenalstown 1853
4 children b Bagenalstown - Thomas 1856 Margaret 1864 Catherine 1866 & Ellen 1869 (my Gt Grandmother)
It seems 2 children b Lisblake Co Fermanagh - Owen 1876 & M
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You could try irishgenealogy for BDM's starting 1865
RC church registers if RC
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cont.... Margaret 1864 Catherine 1866 & Ellen 1869 ( my grandmother)
2 children b Lisblake Co Fermanagh - Owen 1876 & Mary Anne 1877
Possibly 1 child b Dublin - Anna 1879 - were they on their way to England then?
Family move to Lancashire after 1879 - with or without Catherine??
Their son Thomas is on 1881c married with 1 child in Burnley Lancashire
First evidence of Catherine's husband Thomas in Lancashire is daugh Catherine's death cert1885 in Barrowford.
Then daugh Margaret's marriage in 1889 to James Sullivan in Burnley.
1891 husband Thomas widowed living with daugh Ellen in Nelson area of Burnley.
So no trace of Catherine's death in Lancashire and nothing standing out from Irish records.
Any suggestions as to further research welcome as I want to fill in this gap - thanks
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Hi was Ellen's Birthday the 9th of September?
as you say the year was 1869.
Maggsie
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Your full message (from other thread you had started plus what you posted already on this thread)
Born Catherine Murphy Bagenalstown Co Carlow 1833. Marr Thomas Nolan Bagenalstown 1853
4 children b Bagenalstown - Thomas 1856 Margaret 1864 Catherine 1866 & Ellen 1869 (my Gt Grandmother)
It seems 2 children b Lisblake Co Fermanagh - Owen 1876 & Margaret 1864 Catherine 1866 & Ellen 1869 ( my grandmother)
2 children b Lisblake Co Fermanagh - Owen 1876 & Mary Anne 1877
Possibly 1 child b Dublin - Anna 1879 - were they on their way to England then?
Family move to Lancashire after 1879 - with or without Catherine??
Their son Thomas is on 1881c married with 1 child in Burnley Lancashire
First evidence of Catherine's husband Thomas in Lancashire is daugh Catherine's death cert1885 in Barrowford.
Then daugh Margaret's marriage in 1889 to James Sullivan in Burnley.
1891 husband Thomas widowed living with daugh Ellen in Nelson area of Burnley.
So no trace of Catherine's death in Lancashire and nothing standing out from Irish records.
Any suggestions as to further research welcome as I want to fill in this gap - thanks
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You could try irishgenealogy for BDM's starting 1865
RC church registers if RC
Births, deaths and Catholic marriages starting 1864 (from 1845 for non-Catholic marriages)
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I've asked if both threads could be merged to avoid confusion but in the meantime...
You seem a bit unsure about quite a few details-
Possibly 1 child b Dublin - Anna 1879 - were they on their way to England then?
Is this the record you mean (only birth for an Anna Nolan 1869 Dublin that I can see)? born in Workhouse, parents John Nolan (deceased) & Catherine Murphy-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069937.pdf
Have you found the family in 1881 English census to see if Catherine is there or Thomas?
Threads merged.
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On birth cert day unclear - it's either 9th or 10th but September correct
Hi was Ellen's Birthday the 9th of September?
as you say the year was 1869.
Maggsie
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Will check these two out - think I looked before but worth another try.Thanks.
You could try irishgenealogy for BDM's starting 1865
RC church registers if RC
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I'm new to the forum scene so thanks for that :)
I've asked if both threads could be merged to avoid confusion but in the meantime...
You seem a bit unsure about quite a few details-
Possibly 1 child b Dublin - Anna 1879 - were they on their way to England then?
Is this the record you mean (only birth for an Anna Nolan 1869 Dublin that I can see)? born in Workhouse, parents John Nolan (deceased) & Catherine Murphy-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069937.pdf
Have you found the family in 1881 English census to see if Catherine is there or Thomas?
Threads merged.
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I'm new to the forum scene so thanks for that :)I've asked if both threads could be merged to avoid confusion but in the meantime...
You seem a bit unsure about quite a few details-
Possibly 1 child b Dublin - Anna 1879 - were they on their way to England then?
Is this the record you mean (only birth for an Anna Nolan 1869 Dublin that I can see)? born in Workhouse, parents John Nolan (deceased) & Catherine Murphy-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069937.pdf
Have you found the family in 1881 English census to see if Catherine is there or Thomas?
Threads merged.
No harm done, we all had to start somewhere!! ;D
Do you have records for those named on your post?
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Info sources
Thomas Nolan bab 1/12/1832 lived in Ballywilliamroe. Catherine Murphy bab 10/3/1833 lived in Newtown. Both from Dunleckny Par.Reg. Their marr 25/9/1853 from IGI.
Birth cert Ellen(my Gt Grandmother) 10/9/1869
Bab records of all others mentioned
Possibility bab 16/6/1879 Irish Cath Par Reg
1881c son Thomas Burnley Lancashire married with 1 child
1886 dau Catherine's Death Cert - father Thomas present at death. Barrowford, Burnley.
1891c Thomas (widowed) living with dau Ellen in Nelson,Burnley.
1891c Margaret married with 1 child in Colne, Burnley
1908 Death Cert Thomas. Barrowford,Burnley
:) Thank you all for your interest
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Their marr 25/9/1853.... http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634458#page/55/mode/1up last entry
Birth cert Ellen 10/9/1869 16 years later, have you checked registers for others before that?
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Your dates are correct anyway... http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634457#page/46/mode/1up
Is there nothing on 1908 Death Cert Thomas. Barrowford, Burnley ? Widower etc?
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.
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says Thomas widowed on 1891c Nelson,Burnley. Daughter Ellen living with him.
1908 his cousin present at death.
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Have checked for other siblings of Ellen several times-ones found:
Thomas 1856
Margaret 1864
Catherine 1866
All in Bagenalstown records
Owen 1876 & Mary Ann 1877 born Lisblake, Fermanagh but die same year of birth.
Unsure about Anna 16 June 1879 Dublin? Thanks
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Unsure about Anna 16 June 1879 Dublin? Thanks
Does her birth certificate not rule her out?
Is this the record you mean (only birth for an Anna Nolan 1869 Dublin that I can see)? born in Workhouse, parents John Nolan (deceased) & Catherine Murphy-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069937.pdf
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Sorry can't help with the whereabouts of Catherine's death
Info sources
Thomas Nolan bab 1/12/1832 lived in Ballywilliamroe.
Catherine Murphy bab 10/3/1833 lived in Newtown. Both from Dunleckny Par.Reg.
Their marr 25/9/1853 from IGI.
Birth cert Ellen(my Gt Grandmother) 10/9/1869
Bab records of all others mentioned
Possibility bab 16/6/1879 Irish Cath Par Reg
1881c son Thomas Burnley Lancashire married with 1 child
1886 dau Catherine's Death Cert - father Thomas present at death. Barrowford, Burnley.
1891c Thomas (widowed) living with dau Ellen in Nelson,Burnley.
1891c Margaret married with 1 child in Colne, Burnley
1908 Death Cert Thomas. Barrowford,Burnley
For info. Is this your Thomas?
Thomas surname transcribed as NELSON looks to read NOLAN
widow age 75 born Co. Carlo Ireland, parish relief living 227 Gisburn Road Barrowford Burnely Lancashire
1901 RG13; Piece: 3890; Folio: 35; Page: 33
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Have checked for other siblings of Ellen several times-ones found:
Thomas 1856
Margaret 1864
Catherine 1866
All in Bagenalstown records
Owen 1876 & Mary Ann 1877 born Lisblake, Fermanagh but die same year of birth.
Unsure about Anna 16 June 1879 Dublin? Thanks
Hi,
Know it's not what you are looking for but there is a baptism of an Anne Nolan,parents Thomas Nolan and ? Murphy of Bagenalstown with sponsors Richard ? and Mary Walsh on 23rd April 1854 in Bagenalstown/Dunleckney Parish Records.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/Baptism_Dunleckney_53.htm
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Thanks for looking :)
Sorry can't help with the whereabouts of Catherine's death
Info sources
Thomas Nolan bab 1/12/1832 lived in Ballywilliamroe.
Catherine Murphy bab 10/3/1833 lived in Newtown. Both from Dunleckny Par.Reg.
Their marr 25/9/1853 from IGI.
Birth cert Ellen(my Gt Grandmother) 10/9/1869
Bab records of all others mentioned
Possibility bab 16/6/1879 Irish Cath Par Reg
1881c son Thomas Burnley Lancashire married with 1 child
1886 dau Catherine's Death Cert - father Thomas present at death. Barrowford, Burnley.
1891c Thomas (widowed) living with dau Ellen in Nelson,Burnley.
1891c Margaret married with 1 child in Colne, Burnley
1908 Death Cert Thomas. Barrowford,Burnley
For info. Is this your Thomas?
Thomas surname transcribed as NELSON looks to read NOLAN
widow age 75 born Co. Carlo Ireland, parish relief living 227 Gisburn Road Barrowford Burnely Lancashire
1901 RG13; Piece: 3890; Folio: 35; Page: 33
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looks like this could be another child of theirs - will check later. Thanks for that ;)
Have checked for other siblings of Ellen several times-ones found:
Thomas 1856
Margaret 1864
Catherine 1866
All in Bagenalstown records
Owen 1876 & Mary Ann 1877 born Lisblake, Fermanagh but die same year of birth.
Unsure about Anna 16 June 1879 Dublin? Thanks
Hi,
Know it's not what you are looking for but there is a baptism of an Anne Nolan,parents Thomas Nolan and ? Murphy of Bagenalstown with sponsors Richard ? and Mary Walsh on 23rd April 1854 in Bagenalstown/Dunleckney Parish Records.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/Baptism_Dunleckney_53.htm
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Will have to send for this birth cert I think
Anna's bab at St Pauls Dublin City 16/ 6/1879Unsure about Anna 16 June 1879 Dublin? Thanks
Does her birth certificate not rule her out?
Is this the record you mean (only birth for an Anna Nolan 1869 Dublin that I can see)? born in Workhouse, parents John Nolan (deceased) & Catherine Murphy-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1879/02920/2069937.pdf
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You don't have to send for the birth certificate - you can see it for free by clicking on the link given, and following the link from there. The entry is one up from the bottom of the page.
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Baptism register lists father as Thomas Nolan :-\
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633665#page/115/mode/1up
Birth certificate clearly says father John Nolan dead ???
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Didn't know I could view for free!! Thanks so much :) :-*
You don't have to send for the birth certificate - you can see it for free by clicking on the link given, and following the link from there. The entry is one up from the bottom of the page.
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Yes I had the bab reg with Thomas as father but now have looked at birth cert (didn't know I could actually view like this!!!) and know I had incorrect details
Thank you again - valuable help for me :-*Baptism register lists father as Thomas Nolan :-\
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633665#page/115/mode/1up
Birth certificate clearly says father John Nolan dead ???
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To be honest I'm not sure what was going on there. The birth certificate says John Nolan dead and took place in Workhouse. So IF it is same child then did she say husband dead but correct details on baptism OR did priest put wrong details in register (and not mark father deceased?)
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The birth was registered by a woman from the workhouse who couldn't write (presumably, as she made her mark when registering the birth) so she may have made a mistake and not been able to read it to correct it. The baptism details were probably given by one of the parents, so if I had to put money on which one's more likely to be correct, I'd go for the baptismal record.....I think!
Have you found any evidence of baby Anna dying in either Ireland or England, or alive in England?
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Thank you both for your considerations - I had also begun to wonder if there could still be a connection as it seems as though there has been a recording error anyway.
My original thought was the family were travelling from Lisblake after having 2 more children there going to the Dublin area to make their way to England to join their son Thomas (on 1881c married with 1 child) in Burnley area.
The 2nd child Mary Anne born in Lisblake died in infancy like the 1st but her death is registered in Celbridge which is only 14miles from Dublin - this was only 2years before the Anna Dublin birth querie you have been discussing.
From both of your research experiences does this seem a reasonable assumption to work on ?? :-\
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Wonder if any helpful clues in Workhouse records? (although mother might just be there to have baby)
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If the family had sailed from Dublin, they would probably have arrived in Liverpool area. There are deaths of a Catherine Nolan registered Toxteth and West Derby aged in her 40s in 1879 (age depends on what index you look on) and baby Annie Nolan died in Manchester area in 1880.
A possible scenario is that they arrived Liverpool shortly after the birth and Catherine died soon after. The baby may have then been fostered out or died within a year or so of her birth.
Do you know where son Thomas married and who witnessed it? That may give a clue to when the entire family arrived in England, and thus help clear up the 1879 birth.
Added: Also, where was Thomas senior buried? Remotely possible that he was buried with his wife?
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Thomas buried with daughter Ellen -attached
On daughter Catherine's death cert he is a labourer -attached
Have checked over the years for burials in Burnley areas for Catherine with no luck but yes the Liverpool theory is good so will check out
1901 Thomas on parish relief yet in 1902 he bought a double grave for his daughter Ellen and to be honest it's the smartest one in the Catholic graveyard in Barrowford. Cannot imagine where the money came from!!!
Thomas's daughter's marriage to James Sullivan in Burnley 1889 I only have the index as it's Catholic and are more difficult to access online.
1889 & 1886 son Thomas has 2 of his children buried in Burnley Cem. so have checked for Catherine here.
Daughter Catherine buried in St John the Evangelist churchyard,Great Marsden,Burnley - also checked here.
:)Can't believe you're both trying to help me like this.Many thanks :-*
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Haven't got son Thomas's marr.date but will check later- would be around 1879 -1880 :)
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1901 Thomas on parish relief yet in 1902 he bought a double grave for his daughter Ellen and to be honest it's the smartest one in the Catholic graveyard in Barrowford. Cannot imagine where the money came from!!!
The headstone may have been erected later, some time after Thomas's death and paid for by the rest of the family. Likewise, the extended family may have chipped in to buy the plot - to give you a price indication, a 4 person plot in Warrington Cemy in 1873 cost 15/- (heavens above; that's 75pence in today's money!)
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I saw the original grave records at the presbytery - the parish priest even copied them for me which was a lucky break at the time. It was Thomas who purchased the double plot for Ellen and himself also with a note attached that absolutely no other person to be buried in the grave.He did not like Ellen's husband because as stories were passed down the family especially from my father that "Ellen's husband was cruel to her." I later found this to be correct as I found a newspaper article from the Burnley Express in 1900 when Ellen's husband was charged with assaulting her.
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Haven't got son Thomas's marr.date but will check later- would be around 1879 -1880 :)
Not sure if I missed this on your thread but what was Thomas Nolan Jnr' wife & daughter's name?
Were they both named Bridget?
If so,
1881 census Thomas NOLAN married to Bridget and a dau Bridget age 1
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q275-6Q5F
I've not come across a NOLAN/FEENEY marriage on FreeBMD or Lancashire BMD, so perhaps they married in Ireland
Lancashire BMD has following birth entry
1880 Bridget NOLAN mmn FEENEY Burnley Preston
Looks as if Bridget Nolan is now known by the christian name Mary :-\
1891 c Thomas & Mary Nolan plus children Bridget, John, Eliza & Ann
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QRHQ-PMM
from Lancashire BMD birth entries Burnley Preston mmn FEENEY
1882 John, 1884 Eliza, 1889 Margaret, 1891 Ann, 1893 Thomas, 1896 James,
1901 Thomas & Mary Nolan plus children Bridget, John, Eliza, Ann, James & Willie
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9G6-QR9
from Lancashire BMD birth entry Burnley
1900 Willie NOLAN mmn FEENEY
These appear to be their death entries
Mary Nolan Age at Death: 67
Mar 1926 Burnley Lancashire Volume: 8e Page: 265
Thomas Nolan Age at Death: 78
Jun 1936 Burnley Lancashire Volume: 8e Page: 228
and their burial details from Lancashire OPC
Grave: A18370 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancs.
Interments:
Name Age Abode Source Register Date buried
1 Mary Nolan 67yrs 42 Harling Street Book 12 #95579 20 Feb 1926
2 Thomas Nolan 78yrs Municipal Hospital Book 14 #108083 20 Jun 1936
3 John Nolan 76yrs Bath St Book 16 #130592 13 Aug 1958
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Just found this on Lancashire BMD
1877 Burnley Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston
Thomas NOLAN to Mary FENEY
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Haven't got son Thomas's marr.date but will check later- would be around 1879 -1880 :)
1881 census Thomas NOLAN married to Bridget and a dau Bridget age 1
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q275-6Q5F
1880 Bridget NOLAN mmn FEENEY Burnley Preston
Looked at the original 1881 entry Thomas' wife is named Bridget & dau named Mary 2 mths ???
No birth entry on Lancashire BMD or FreeBDM for a Mary Nolan 1880 but there is this one for a
Bridget NOLAN Dec 1880 Prescot 8b 714
Perhaps they got the names mixed up and wife should be Mary and dau Bridget in 1881 census ???
Added
Thomas's daughter's marriage to James Sullivan in Burnley 1889 I only have the index as it's Catholic and are more difficult to access online.
Their marriage entry is on Lancashire BMD
1889 Burnley Register Office or Registrar Attended
James SULLIVAN to Margaret NOLAN
unfortunately the above has not been transcribed on Lancashire OPC :(
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Yes all these facts are correct and Mary is known as Bridget too. ::)
Have looked for death for Ann b 1854 also death Anna b 1879 - no results
I think the 1879 death you found for Catherine in West Derby Liverpool could be incorrect as I think this is a widow on 1871c then gone on 1881c
I realise now how common the Nolan name is in Lancs at this time!
Thomas junior traced to Burnley but nothing for sibling Margaret until marr 1889/sibling Catherine until death 1886/sibling Ellen until 1991c - so no help here to find their mother Catherine's death ???
:)Thanks a million for both your continued interest