RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: roycymru on Wednesday 26 April 17 22:36 BST (UK)
-
Hello
I am hoping someone can help. I have recently found out that Margaret Evans (1829-1910) born Cilcarw is the grandmother of Silas Davies (1878 - ?) as he is mentioned as the informant (of the Coop Stores, Pontyberem) and grandson on her death certificate in 1910. In the 1911 census Silas is listed as Manager of the Coop Stores Pontyberem, living there with his wife Elizabeth and children Margaret Mary and Lizzie Ann Gaynor.
I have both Margaret Evans and Silas Davies in my family tree but can't see how they are connected. The Evans of Cilcarw are well documented and therefore I am hoping someone may have already worked out this link.
Margaret Evans was the daughter of Stephen Evans and Ann Thomas of Cilcarw (Uchaf). Margaret married John Rees (1827-1904) in 1857 and they lived at Waunfawr and later at Cilcarw. They had 2 daughters Margaret Evans (1854-1877) and Ann Rees (1859-?). Margaret Evans married Joseph Griffiths (1854-1903) in 1874 and they had 2 children Mary Ann Griffiths (1875-1897) and Elizabeth Griffiths (1876-?). I have little information on Ann apart from the fact she may have married a Mr. Bowen.
Silas Davies was the son of John Davies (1839-1894) and Mary Davies (1838-1913). John was the son of David (1810-1874) and Anne Davies (1808-1890) and Mary's father was a John Davies, Collier, mother unknown. Mary listed her address as Felin Cwmdwr on her marriage entry on 05Jul1861, Llanarthney. To date I have been unable to find Mary in the 1861 or earlier censuses.
Possible thoughts that Ann Rees subsequently married again to a Davies and Silas's mother is one of their children. Unless John Rees marriage to Margaret Evans was his second one and he had a daughter who married a Davies. But this is pure speculation and I could be well off the mark.
(Also if anyone is able to find Silas in the 1901 census this would be appreciated as I can't)
Kind regards
Roy
-
Some extra information just supplied:
Ann Rees--also known as Sarah Ann Rees married William Joshua Bowen--and lived in Charleston, Pennsylvania, USA.
So she can be discounted as subsequently marrying a Davies
-
......plus John Rees and Margaret Evans were batchelor and spinster when they got married, discounting the theory that John had been married before
-
Roy, is this him in 1901 ?
Tyrefail Cottages Pontyberem, 1, Glyn, Llannon, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary Davies Head Widow Female 62 (1839) Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Llewellyn Davies Son Single Male 25 1876 Coal Miner Hewer (B G) Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Silas Davies Son Single Male 23 1878 Grocer's Assistant Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales
RG13 5093/44/19
Mar
-
Margaret Evans had a sister Ann, who married a David H Rees of Closteg in 1845 before emigrating to the US in the 1850s. By the time she died in 1916, there was one surviving sister Martha Gealy. it could be that "grandmother" was a bit of a rough description of an extended family relationship?
-
Roy, is this him in 1901 ?
Tyrefail Cottages Pontyberem, 1, Glyn, Llannon, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary Davies Head Widow Female 62 (1839) Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Llewellyn Davies Son Single Male 25 1876 Coal Miner Hewer (B G) Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Silas Davies Son Single Male 23 1878 Grocer's Assistant Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales
RG13 5093/44/19
Mar
Excellent, thank you, yes that's him. Can't work out why my searches on ancestry did not come up with this match
-
Margaret Evans had a sister Ann, who married a David H Rees of Closteg in 1845 before emigrating to the US in the 1850s. By the time she died in 1916, there was one surviving sister Martha Gealy. it could be that "grandmother" was a bit of a rough description of an extended family relationship?
Hello
Thank you for the extra information. The death certificate clearly states "Silas Davies grandson present at death". Thinking about it overnight none of it makes sense! The first port of call maybe to check that the registry office have not made some transcription error when writing out a copy of the death certificate.
I think the below reasoning is right, if not, please correct me.
For Silas Davies to be Margaret Rees (nee Evans) grandson, Silas's mother would have had to have been a daughter of Margaret and married a Davies. There are only 2 known children of Margaret Evans (and John Rees), Margaret Evans (1854) and Ann (Sarah Ann) Rees (1859). Margaret and John are listed as spinster and batchelor when they married in 1857. John is attributed as father to the first daughter Margaret Evans when she subsequently marries Joseph Griffiths, though Margaret Evans retains the surname Evans and was born before Margaret Evans and John Rees got married. Margaret Evans (the daughter) was illegitimate and therefore there is the possibility of another illegitimate daughter before Margaret (the mother) married John Rees in 1857. It also seems strange that John and Margaret only had one "official" child, perhaps there are others daughters that are undocumented.
Even given the above, it still does make sense. Silas's mother is Mary Davies and there is currently no evidence of her being a daughter of Margaret Evans. Her father is John Davies with mother currently unknown. If anyone can trace Mary in the 1861 censuses or earlier (see initial post for more details) this could help as it would provide mothers name and other details.
I suppose Silas could be a great grandson rather than a grandson, but I need to think this through further.
Any further thought or insights would be of great help!
-
Roy, is this him in 1901 ?
Tyrefail Cottages Pontyberem, 1, Glyn, Llannon, Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Mary Davies Head Widow Female 62 (1839) Llanelly, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Llewellyn Davies Son Single Male 25 1876 Coal Miner Hewer (B G) Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales
Silas Davies Son Single Male 23 1878 Grocer's Assistant Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales
RG13 5093/44/19
Mar
Excellent, thank you, yes that's him. Can't work out why my searches on ancestry did not come up with this match
Because they are helpfully transcribed as Daries!
-
Still totally confused by all of this. Was wondering whether further exploration of Silas's mother might shed any light. I have been unable to find her in 1861 census or earlier but am hoping those with better expertise than mine can:
"Silas Davies was the son of John Davies (1839-1894) and Mary Davies (1838-1913). John was the son of David (1810-1874) and Anne Davies (1808-1890) and Mary's father was a John Davies, Collier, mother unknown. Mary listed her address as Felin Cwmdwr (think this is actually Felin Cwmmawr) on her marriage entry on 05Jul1861, Llanarthney. To date I have been unable to find Mary in the 1861 or earlier censuses." (In 1871 her birthplace is listed as Llannon but in all later ones it is listed as Llanelly)
Regards
Roy
-
this is my best suggestion for 1861 - but don;t think it gets us any further
Cwmmawr fach, Llanarthney
William E Morgans 30
Isabela Morgans 18
William Williams 50
Mary Davies 21 - servant, b Llanelly
RG9, 4134, 74, 4
Who are listed as witnesses to the marriage?
-
this is my best suggestion for 1861 - but don;t think it gets us any further
Cwmmawr fach, Llanarthney
William E Morgans 30
Isabela Morgans 18
William Williams 50
Mary Davies 21 - servant, b Llanelly
RG9, 4134, 74, 4
Who are listed as witnesses to the marriage?
Thanks for looking and it does seem like a good match. Witnesses to the marriage were William Griffiths, Gwendraeth Cottage (John's brother in law) and Thomas Evans, Tantypridd (or could possibly be Pantypridd), relationship unknown.
-
this is my best suggestion for 1861 - but don;t think it gets us any further
Cwmmawr fach, Llanarthney
William E Morgans 30
Isabela Morgans 18
William Williams 50
Mary Davies 21 - servant, b Llanelly
RG9, 4134, 74, 4
Who are listed as witnesses to the marriage?
Thanks for looking and it does seem like a good match. Witnesses to the marriage were William Griffiths, Gwendraeth Cottage (John's brother in law) and Thomas Evans, Tantypridd (or could possibly be Pantypridd), relationship unknown.
Just spotted John Davies with his parents David and Anne Davies on the same census page at Tynywain, so I think this is very likely match. Good spot!
-
Also just spotted that Cwmmawr is the first farm on the next census page, so it all fits nicely. The only thing that is slightly off is that "family history" has her born 1838, whereas this census entry has her born 1840. The marriage entry does not help as it just says full age. However, on balance I think this is her in 1861.
-
Think I have solved it!
Should have thought of this before! When considering Silas's grandparents I never gave any consideration to his wife's ancestry. I knew Silas married an Elizabeth Griffiths and from census records that she was born about 1876, but had no details on her ancestry. Looked through my records for any Elizabeth Griffiths born 1876 and Voila!
Margaret Evans's (died 1910 as Margaret Rees) daughter Margaret Evans married Joseph Griffiths and they had a daughter Elizabeth Griffiths born 1876! Therefore, this must be the same Elizabeth Griffiths that married Silas. Therefore, Silas wasn't her grandson but his wife was her granddaughter and Silas her "grandson in law" but could easily have been affectionately considered as Margaret's grandson.
If anyone disagrees with this reasoning please let me know