RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: kall on Saturday 29 April 17 13:06 BST (UK)
-
Looking for help on finding the parents of Alexander...he was born on 28 Jun 1860 in Dumfries to Janet Gordon farm servant late of Troqueer...firstly what does that mean late of....He was illegitimate but later dropped the Gordon surname and just used McLellan. On his marriage certificate to Isabella Harkness 1822 Middlebie his reputed father is named as David McLellan Master Draper. Any help on info on Janet or David would be brilliant
Many thanks
Karen
-
late of Troqueer would mean that she lived in parish of Troqueer previously - it's the neighbouring parish to Dumfries.
Does the birth cert have a corrected entry notice on it?
-
Hi Gadget
Not that I can see
-
Can't find a Dsvid McLellan (variations) in the broad area and of age who was a Master Draper on the 1861 or 1871 censuses - nearest was a stocking maker , married to a Janet.
Will look some more.
-
Thanks Gadget
Not sure that Janet married David as on Alexanders wedding certificate she is still named Gordon
-
Do you have Alexander/Janet on the 1861 and 1871 censuses?
-
No. The earliest I have is 1881. He is boarding in Annan and under profession it says tailor...
-
Think he could be a boarder in 1861 - just a possible though
Johnstones Close, Dumfries
Agnes Gillan, wid, 33, shoemaker's widow, b. Ayrshire
2 sons and 3 male boarders
plus
Alexr McLellan, boarder , 1, b. Dumfries
-
Possible in 1871
Closeburn, Dumfriesshire
James Grierson, 35, lab, b. Dumfriesshire
Sarah Grierson, wife, b. -do-
Alexander McLellan, boarder, 10, scholar, b. Dumfries
Will check for Janet in that area
-
That sounds a real possibility.....just out of interest what website did you use to find the info....I sometimes feel like I go round in circles and still don't find anything. Am just off out to watch Tour de Yorkshire so Speak later
Thanks for all your help
-
I think I used both most commonly used sites but also on FamilySearch.
It looks possible that Janet had to leave Alexander so that she could work. Maybe David McLellan paid something towards the costs - hence Alexander's trade.
A bit cold up here for T de Yorkshire -' twas on both local channels last night ;D
-
Thanks Gadget
Will have a check on Ancestry so I can add it to my tree....you have been a great help
Not too cold here and great atmosphere
Thanks again
Karen
-
Gadget
Tried to find the 1871 on Ancestry and it has been transcribed as James and Sarah Greason with Margaret as the boarder. Find sometimes that Ancestry are not very good on the transcribing....have you had the same problem. Found what you said in find my past....strange
-
That's why I usually use as many sites as I can!
;D
Had a look around for Janet but without a definite age it's difficult. Maybe a death record might be possible. I thought I'd found a possible in Renfrewshire as a domesitic servant (from memory, possibly Cathcart) but can't remember which census - 71 or 81 :-\
I'll check back.
-
This was the one, but not sure at all.
1871
4 may Terrace, Cathcart, Renfrewshire
Household of Robert Dick, 35, wine, spirit, etc (?), b. Islay
Margaret, 33, b. Kincardine
3 children
Janet Murray Gordon, unm, 30, general servant, b. Dumfriesshire
plus 1 other servant
-
I found a Janet Gordon aged 17 living with an Alexander Gordon 55 and Sarah Gordon 58 on a farm in Whithorn....could be her parents. She is an Ag labourer. Maybe named her child after her father but why would they not have him live there....confusing
-
Was that the 1861?
-
PS - it looks promising but so far can't find a definitedeath or marriage for anyone that fits her details :-\
Worth following some of the family to see if there are any clues.
-
Yes it was the 61
-
The family are in Cabside, Whithorn in 1841
They have a Jean aged 8, Just wondering if it's your Jean/Janet, who was wrongly transcribed in 1861) or that this one died and they then had Janet.
Added - Alexander and Sarah are still at the 1861 address in 1871- no children with them.
-
Think that Jean and Janet are different people as the dates differ by about 11 years. Would you assume this is my Janet Gordon....or do you think I should still keep looking
-
Not sure if it's your Janet but worth following up.
If it is, this looks interesting:
1851
Main Street, Whithorn
David McLelland, 36, , Tailor
Marry,w , 28,
Mary, daughter, 6
Andrew, s, 4
David, s, 2
Elisabeth, d, under 1
all born Whithorn
Nothing in 1861 but
1871
Same address
David McLelland, 57,Tailor Master
Mary Ann, d, 26, dressmaker
Andrew, s, 23, Tailor Journeyman
Harriet, d, 19, housekeeper
James, s, 17, Tailor Apprentice
It could well be that he had a shop in Main Street and was a draper also - I've not come across a Master Draper but many Master Tailors!
Added - correction there is a Drapers Company and Master Drapers.
Looked at one of the valuation rolls for Main street - it's mixed tradesmen, inns and ordinary dwellings - an ordinary 'main street'!
-
I thought his death cert might have more info but not really - Alexander died 21 Nov 1942 in Dumfries. No father's name given. It just says Alexander McLellan, formerly Alexander McLellan Gordon. Mother Janet Gordon (farm servant) deceased. His son, Alexander was the informant.
-
You are amazing Gadget....
Where did you find the info on Alexanders death? Have been trying to find that for ages
Thanks so much for all your help
-
Just a bit more and on the off chance as I'm not up with Scottish guilds/trade assocs. it might be worth trying to find the Drapers Guild/Trade Org to see if records exist for David McLellan. As a start there's this link:
http://www.tradeshouse.org.uk/
I think you can contact them for info.
Added - although Drapers is not listed as one of the incorporated trdes, the are mentioned on the websirte - e.g. the Drapers Fund.
-
Thank you
Have added all the details to my Ancestry tree.....too much of a coincidence to not be them....I hope.
The only thing is the fact that David is McLelland but that doesn't bother me too much as have seen all sorts of spelling and according to Alexanders birth certificate Janet couldn't write. Have found on Find my past the census that you mentioned but can't find the 1871 with David....it should be there shouldn't it
-
It should be there - maybe try one of the other names.
If you have more probs with it, let me know and I'll send you what I have.
-
Found it
-
A possible death for a Janet Gordon - but no real info apart from her being the same age as the girl in Whithorn.
Dumfries - 1st July 1914 at Dumfries Poor house
Janet Gordon, housewife, single, 70 years. Malignant disease of Intestines.
Informant was the nurse who attended her.
No other info.
So far, I've not found her by tracing back - maybe you could check the 1911 on SP.
-
Thanks for the certificate.....it would be a shame if that is her as her son was still alive then and lived not too far away. His wife died in 1900 and left him to bring up the family so it would have been nice to have his mum live with him.....
-
It might have been that she was there because of her illness rather than poverty ~
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Dumfries/
-
Didn't think about that. One thing that has me doubting my luck in you answering all my problems is why was Janet in Troqueer...do you think she was sent away when she bacame pregnant....did they do that sort of thing in those days and who were the couple that took Alexander in when he was born.....soooo many questions. Think my head is about to explode haha
-
That's what I've been wondering as well. It could be that she was working there (Maxwelltown, maybe - west side of the Nith to Dumfries) and she had the baby in Dumfries. Then went home to Wigtownshire.
It's a fair way though, which made me wonder. My 3xgrandmother moved from Creetown to New Galloway in the early 1800s but.... There were coaches, etc. and carts going between the main settlements - but Whithorn is maybe a bit off the main routes.
It's all possibles :-\
-
It's the fact that she called the baby Alexander.....which was the name of the father that you found and the fact that they all lived in the same place....said it before but just seems too much of a coincidence to not be them.
Are you like me and make up little stories in your head or do you just stick to the facts. Have only been doing this for a few months and I am driving everyone nuts
-
What we have is a birth of Alexander McLellan Gordon to Janet Gordon in Dumfries in 1860. A year later he is a boarder in Dumfries as Alexander McLellan . He is always known by that name and is a boarder until his marriage. He was apprenticed as a tailor and became a journeyman.
who paid for his board and later apprenticeship - i don't think Janet would have been able to afford the costs. Also, why was he called McLellan from such an early age? Could David McLellan have paid for him? Death cert has no mention of him.
You really need to find out about his apprenticeship - who paid,etc.
I haven't found a will for David, so far.
-
Thanks Gadget
-
I'll keep exploring the records and let you know if I find anything else. What we've found is the best so far, so don't discount them :)
Ps Wigtownshire Pages might hav something - http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ainsty/
-
You have been such a star in helping me.....again Thankyou
-
Have found a David McLelland 1871 census born 1844 in Whithorn who seems to be the son of the older David McLelland and under profession says Tailor Master...that seems to make more sense as he was the same age as Janet. What do you think?
-
Can you give details as the David, son of David that I found was born circa 1849
1851
Main Street, Whithorn
David McLelland, 36, , Tailor
Marry,w , 28,
Mary, daughter, 6
Andrew, s, 4
David, s, 2
Elisabeth, d, under 1
all born Whithorn
Nothing in 1861 but
1871
Same address
David McLelland, 57,Tailor Master
Mary Ann, d, 26, dressmaker
Andrew, s, 23, Tailor Journeyman
Harriet, d, 19, housekeeper
James, s, 17, Tailor Apprentice
-
It says David McLelland
Age 27
Born about 1844 Whithorn
Head
Tailor Master
MainStreet
Other people
Mary Ann 25
Andrew 23
Harriet 19
James 17
Can't find him anywhere else though
His surname has lower case L don't know if that makes a difference on search
-
I think it's a transcription error - compare my find:
1851
Main Street, Whithorn
David McLelland, 36, , Tailor
Marry,w , 28,
Mary, daughter, 6
Andrew, s, 4
David, s, 2
Elisabeth, d, under 1
all born Whithorn
Nothing in 1861 but
1871
Same address
David McLelland, 57,Tailor Master
Mary Ann, d, 26, dressmaker
Andrew, s, 23, Tailor Journeyman
Harriet, d, 19, housekeeper
James, s, 17, Tailor Apprentice
-
See what you mean.....will change my Ancestry again. Good job that you are on the ball. Thanks
-
There is also another possible :
1861
Wigtown
David McLelland, 28, Grocer and sewing agent, b. Wigtown
Margt , w, 19, b. Wigtown.
I saw a marriage announcement for this couple in some newspapers that I was checking. They married in 1860.
Another thought is that David, the master draper, might have been a travelling draper, which means that he could be anywhere.
I think that it would be worth doing more trawls for Janet/Jessie Gordon - I'm not totally convinced that the Whithorn one is correct.
-
Back to the drawing board then....I also wondered if he might be a travelling draper
-
Hi
Been following the thread with interest and just throw this into the mix. There is a Robert McLellan(b 1831 Lochmaben - other censuses have birth about 1825 and with a variety of ocupations) showing as a tea dealer and draper in the 1881 census in Middlebie- some of his sons seem to have become travelling drapers in Cumbria. He would appear to have had a younger brother called David.
William
-
I think I have them in the 1841 in Lochmaben. Ages out from yours but -
Womanrigg, Lochmaben
Isabella McLellan, 40
Robert, 15
James, 14
David, 12
-
In 1851, he's still there as a stockingmaker journeyman.
-
That's interesting because Alexander later moved to Middlebie and that would put him in the right region....just need to find Janet in the same area
-
Don't think it's him
In 1861 is in Lochmaben with a wife, Janet, still a stockingmaker :-\
-
Also, in 1871 in Dalbeattie, still a stockingmaker with wife, Janet, no children.
Interesting but don't think this is him.
-
David McLellan married Janet Creighton, Lochmaben 1852
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTGS-2L9
-
Have found a David McLellan draper living in Wales born in Scotland?
-
Born in Thornhill Dumfries.....do we have my man?
-
Have found a David McLellan draper living in Wales born in Scotland?
Now that looks interesting - more details please. Age, census year and place, etc.
-
OK - just found them - from 1871 onwards - Neath/Brigend. Born circa 1840.
-
That's the one....sounds promising
-
You are amazing to stay with me on this one
-
He seems to have died in 1904 in Bridgend - probate entry (admin). along with wife Elizabeth's will in 1919.
Groindex would suggest that Elizabeth's maiden name was Gibson but cannot see a marriage for them in GB. (See 1911 census for number of years married).
There is a baptism for a David McLellan in Penpont in 1840 - parents Alexander McLellan and Jane Johnstone.
Note that the eldest child registered in Neath RD David McLellan and Elizabeth Gibson was called Alexander.
William
-
Where did you find that Millmoor?
-
Just going to say - Elizabeth's mn was Gibson.
A marriage in Taunton in 1871.
-
Where did you find about the child being registered.....don't know where to look
-
It's on the GRO index - you have to register:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
-
Penpont seems a bit far from Thornhill :-\ I think he was a ploughman in 1861 which is a big change to a draper.
Added - says born Ruthwell, which again is a fair way from Thornhill.
-
It's only about 2 miles Gadget. They are both in Dumfriesshire
-
This will not answer your conundrum but Welsh Newspapers Online (National Library of Wales) are very good - a search for David McLellan there produces a number of hits including his death notice. Worth a look.
William
-
Yep - I looked at an old map of parish boundaries! Drove through it last year so should have realised as we were staying close to Thornhill.
But it says he was born Ruthwell and in 1861 he was a ploughman so a bit doubtful that he became a draper :-\
Is there a will for him in S Wales?
-
This will not answer your conundrum but Welsh Newspapers Online (National Library of Wales) are very good - a search for David McLellan there produces a number of hits including his death notice. Worth a look.
William
Young William seems a handful ;D
-
My gg grandfather's brother Alexander Kennedy went from being a dyker to a travelling photographer in the 1860's - so unexpected changes of occupation can happen! (His obituary states it was the result of being out in all weathers and getting severe sciatica that prompted the change).
The Taunton marriage would give his father's name. Cannot see a Somerset parish record for the marriage. There are baptism records on FindMyPast for their children.
William
-
had a good look around for any baptisms
Elizabeth Gibson, bpt Tinwald 1844
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYMD-XHZ
Thornhill is parish of Morton, I think
The newspaper report does describe him as a 'travelling draper' so Taunton is quite possible.
-
Just wondering about how Alexander (1860) would have known his reputed father (as described on marriage cert of 1882) was a Master Draper. Either via letters, etc. or from some other means - maybe financial support during his apprenticeship as a tailor.
-
It might be worth having a look for Thomas Milligan, witness on the 1882 marriage.
-
He did not leave a will - it was an administration. There are two entries in the probate calendar for him (1904 he has mistakenly been indexed as McLeish) . The 1919 entry has the administration to Jane McLellan spinster. This was a few months after the death of Elizabeth, who did leave a will ( Probate 23 April 1919 to Jane McLellan, spinster).
There is also an administration for his son, David who was killed in the First World War in 1915( The newspaper report has a photograph of him).
William
-
That's amazing Millmoor. Had a read of the newspapers...if it's my David then he not only lost a son in the war but also a grandson as my great grandfather James died in 1917....sad
-
Playing devil's advocate - we still have no proof that it's him. I think you need to get the Taunton marriage cert, Karen.
-
How do I do that Gadget....only ever ordered Scottish records
-
You can order on line at
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
You need to register with them.
The nyou have to fill in the details - I'll go look them up and give you the full details :
Having trouble finding the details again - I'll get back to you on that.
An aside ~
Interesting occupation for Elizabeth Gibson in 1861 (Morton) a muslin sewer- badly transcribed as Muzlers and a Muzlen!
If David was a travelling draper, they could have easily met buy Elizabeth wanting to buy some ribbons, muslin, thread, etc. from him.
-
Have just seen on ancestry a David McLellan marrying in Cardiff in 1868...that could be him rather than Taunton
-
Did he marry an Elizabeth Gibson?
-
The Cardiff one married an Alice Rimmer
Here are the Taunton details ~
David McLellan Elizabeth Gibson
Quarter 1, 1871, Taunton
Vol 5C Page 556
You don't have to put in both names.
-
Glamorgan marriages have the one who married Alice Rimmer as, 35, a widower and a mariner with father as Alexander McLellan (add - also a mariner) .
-
Cannot quote it but if you find Elizabeth McLellan in the 1911 census it gives the number of years they were married. As said earlier her maiden name is clearly Gibson from the Groindexes.
William
-
Yes can see that....don't understand why they would have got married in Taunton
-
I am going to hold off ordering the certificate until I hear back from a few people that I have sent messages to on Ancestry.
-
He was reportedly a travelling draper and Taunton is not all that far from Glamorgan.
The children's mother's maiden name is given as Gibson. I checked for marriages by consulting the latest census and found that the only match was the one that I've given.
-
Thanks Gadget
-
Just to say that there is a James McLellan in the 1871 census also living in Neath age 19 and born Dumfriesshire and a drapers assistant.
He may be living in Wrexham in the 1881 census, married to Elizabeth and a draper (age given as 26).
This is perhaps his marriage (Wrexham)
21 Oct. 1879 James McLellan 25 Bachelor Draper Father Alexander McLellan Brewer
to Elizabeth Jane Johnson 25 Spinster Father William Johnson Inn Keeper.
There is a baptism in Penpont 1853 for a James McLellan - parents the aforementioned Alexander McLellan and Jane Johnstone. It is worth noting that in 1871 this Alexander's occupation is given as a brewer's drayman and in 1881 brewer.
Cannot see James in 1891 and 1901 although his wife appears to be recorded as visiting family in those years but is said to be married. Probable death for her in 1907. James possibly reappears to marry again to Lydia Thomas in Swansea in 1910 and can be sited in the 1911 census ( his signature there could be compared with that on the 1879 marriage to see if it is the same person - I am not a good enough judge!).
I simply run this up the flagpole as he could be a potential younger brother of David McLellan born 1840.
William
Ps I hope you have more luck than I have had with Acy. messages of late (having received precious few replies).
-
My James wasn't born till 1884 and lived in Dumfriesshire until he died in the war. Have had one reply from someone who may be related to Davids son John....watch this space haha