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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Colchester on Sunday 30 April 17 17:07 BST (UK)
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Veronica Jones
Any information or further research suggestions much appreciated on Veronica Jones. My base year is 1941. I don’t have birth date but probably early 1920s.
1941
In July of ’41 she gave her address as 22 Ferndale Road, Woking; that was then St. Margaret’s Childrens Home, occupation ‘General domestic servant’.
She gave her residence as ‘ 1 Bryn Llynfnwy Terrace, Nebo, Penygroes, North Wales’. I’ve looked at the 1939 register and I believe that it has been transcribed incorrectly but searching the village I found numbers 1,2, and 3 Brynllynwyy. I’ve looked at possible connections with the Jones at no.2 without success, and because of the ‘closed’ records I’m at a loss!
On 28 August her address was 2 The Close, West Byfleet, Surrey.
In September she was staying with Mrs Triggs, 78 Cline Road, Guildford, close to her new job at Burns Laundry.
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Is this 1941 information from a birth certificate, Was the Penygroes address taken from it. :-\
ADDED
Surrey history centre have some details
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F128344
1903-63: registers of admissions, account book and day book
Surrey History Centre
3664/4/2
NRA 42199 Guildford DCSR
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Yes...all I have is 1941. Birth certificate as mother of Molly. 'When and where born' is 10 Warren Road, Guildford. Column 5 shows.... General domestic servant of 22 Ferndale Road, Woking (St. Margaret's Children's home).
Other information is from letters at that time.
Thank you
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Thank you,
10 Warren Road is I believe St Lukes Hospital. ;D Have you been able to access any records from Surrey History centre
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Yes, it was. Unfortunately I'm in Devon so travelling to research isn't easy. I'm hoping somebody will give me the 'eureka moment' ;).
Thank you, so much.
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I would be tempted to email Surrey History centre to ask what sort of information is in the record I mentioned. It is worth mentioning you are in Devon and the person / date you are looking at just in case someone thinks it is an easy reply.
I presume she did not have a middle initial
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I wonder if the following are connected:-
There is a Veronica M(air) Jones born 1924 on www.northwalesbmd.org.uk
www.freebmd.org.uk gives the mother's maiden name as Goodall
There is a family named Goodall in the 1911 census in the (Penrhyn)Deudraeth area.
The 1939 register has someone with the same name and occupation as the head of that household(but 10 years different in age) in Woking.
All needs re-checking
Regards
Roger
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There is a 1924 marriage of Lydia Goodall to Edward Jones that would be a reasonable candidate for her parents.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks for the info and direction. I'll make a start! :)
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Just an update. I've gone down the Veronica M Jones route but have found a death record registered at Festiniog, September 1929, aged 4 years :-\ I'll email Surrey History Centre as suggested. Thanks for your responses.
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Just pondering with this one :-\
Marriage Dec qtr 1943
Veronica O Jones
Kenneth M Rice
Surrey N.W. reg district 2a 787
Canadian wives repatriation 1946
Veronica O Rice
Address in UK 2 Adelaide Villas, Copse Road, St Johns, Surrey
Address in Canada Mrs B M Rice M/L (Mother in law?) Archerwell, Sask
What has been omitted from the UK address is Copse Road, St Johns is in Woking ???
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Thanks Rosie...I'll work on it. I still think that the residence address in Wales must be important. It's such a small place; surely can't be random ??? .
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I agree the Wales address must figure somewhere.
I can't see a Veronica O Jones birth or anything on freebmd prior to the marriage I found, I did wonder if she could be registered as Olwyn/Olive Veronica Jones but known as Veronica :-\
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:) I suppose I was hoping that I'd missed something obvious! There's a family history society for Gwynedd so it will be 'cap in hand' to them! OR a long drive to go 'door knocking' ;-)
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Maybe the FH society is able to look at electoral registers for the address. I could not see anything obvious for the couple in number 2 just before WW2 or you could try here first with new post & heading electoral register look up Nebo/Penygroes
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I can't see a Veronica O Jones birth or anything on freebmd prior to the marriage I found, I did wonder if she could be registered as Olwyn/Olive Veronica Jones but known as Veronica :-\
Is there a newspaper story about her?
Surrey Advertiser, Saturday 25 October 1941
Age 25, laundry hand, of 78 Cline Road, Guildford
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Brilliant Jon ;D
Bless her, I was looking everywhere but the newspapers, she was obviously short of money and certainly not enough to buy make up.
That seems to make the Veronica O that went to Canada even more of a possible candidate ;D
Oliven Veronica ::) Not seeing one that matches that name on BMD for a year that would fit but could it have been Olwen Veronica
Shopping in Bentalls, Kingston - maybe she wasn't born in Wales but parents could have been -
Births Dec qtr1916
Jones Olwen V mmn Lamb Kingston RD 2a 714
Think that probably needs ignoring
Looks like that marriage cert could help
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Just in case we have the right person
Relating to the marriage of Veronica O (Rice) - Online tree has her as Veronica Olwyn, her husband Kenneth Melvin Rice dying in 6 September 1944 in France plus a daughter born in England who can be found on freebmd. There is a picture of Kenneth with his parents.
From CWGC website
Kenneth Melvin Rice
Rank Gunner
Service No L/10399
Date of Death 06/09/1944
Regiment/Service Royal Canadian Artillery 12 Field Regt.
Grave Reference: 6. D. 4.
Cemetery:CALAIS CANADIAN WAR CEMETERY, LEUBRINGHEN
I wonder what happened to that Veronica as she went to Canada in 1946 but Kenneth had died 1944 ???
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Free index to 1939 Register has
Olwen W Rice (Jones), born 1916, living Bristol C.B.
Could there be a transcription error with that middle initial?
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Could there be a transcription error with that middle initial?
Yes ;D
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Sorry for my absence but I've spent the day following up on all the info and advice. I really thought the 'Rice' marriage was the answer. I worked through his war records (something of a tragedy, well worth a read, only 18 when he left the farm and joined up, married without permission, daughter born two months before he was K.I.A). In his application to marry her details are entered as 'Miss Veronica Olwyn Jones, born 17 March 1922, Caernavon, North Wales. Name and address of nearest relative - Mrs R. Williams, sister, No11 Rhos ???lyn Terrace, Caernavon.
This doesn't fit in with age, location.
There has to be some clue with the 'Nebo' address...GGGRRR
Many thanks for all the pointers and support!
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The address you have for Wales could be relations of the sisters husband.
I also wonder whether the age given for her ie bn 1922 was because he was also born that year.
The Surrey Advertiser states that she was 25 in 1941
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Hi Rosie, I'm sure you're right but I'm satisfied that the Veronica I'm looking for is the Veronica that Jon highlighted in the Surrey Advertiser. I have a letter, addressed from 2, The Close, West Byfleet, probably written September 1941, in which she says that she will be starting work at Burn's laundry, Guildford. After next Monday my address will be c/o Mrs Triggs, 78 Cline Road, Guildford. Signed 'Veronica Jones'.
She is reported as aged 25 so would that be likely to be correct?
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I agree that she is definitely the Surrey Advertiser girl age 25.
The age of 25 also ties in with the 1939 register entry that jon found in Bristol for Rice (Jones)
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:) :-[ I must have lost it. If she was Veronica Jones in 1941, how was she Rice (Jones) in 1939 (in Bristol). I'm learning....honestly ;)
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the 1939 census can be a bit confusing, as surnames on the index were updated for many years, e.g. to reflect marriage, AFTER it was taken. My grandmother is similarly listed under her second married surname (post war), although she was still married to my grandfather in 1939. It shows the previous surnames in brackets - hence Rice (jones)
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The 1945/46 electoral registers for Olwen V Rice has her at Copse Road. Strangely for the same period there is an entry for Olwen V Rice at the Isolation Hospital, Murray Road, Ottershaw. I would imagine it is probably her at both addresses.
I had wondered from the 'Copse' address whether she had been working at nearby Ashley Cook laundry but having found the other entry she was probably employed working some nights at the isolation hospital hence the registration there.
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Searching the census for an Olwen Jones with a keyword of "llech" brings an interesting result.
Regards
Roger
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Searching the census for an Olwen Jones with a keyword of "llech" brings an interesting result.
Regards
Roger
Which census
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The last one.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger :)
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Another record to speculate on:
1921 marriage of Olwen Jones to Humphrey G Jones at St. Rhedyw Llanllyfni.
Obviously not appropriate if Veronica was born in 1916.
Regards
Roger
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Searching the census for an Olwen Jones with a keyword of "llech" brings an interesting result.
Regards
Roger
If you are searching on Ancestry it is Alun G Jones (yes their transcription is correct)
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Thanks to everyone for your help and support. It would be so satisfying if I could establish that the Veronica O who married Kenneth Rice is the target. His military records are extensive, particularly in relation to his widow. It seems that they met when he was in hospital. However if her birthdate, entered on the application to marry is correct she would be six years too young! I have ordered a copy of the marriage certificate!
Reference the 1939 entry for Olwen W Rice (Jones) in Bristol would that not mean that she was Rice in 1939 then became a Jones later? (I don't have access to the 1939).
As Rosie suggested I'll ask for a Nebo/Penygroes register look up and contact Gwynedd FH.
Thanks again.
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Reference the 1939 entry for Olwen W Rice (Jones) in Bristol would that not mean that she was Rice in 1939 then became a Jones later? (I don't have access to the 1939).
Hi
You'd think so, but in fact it will be the other way round. That's how findmypast have indexed them - by their later surname, with their old one in brackets.
It certainly caused a lot of confusion at first, but you get used it. But at least both surnames - or however many there were - are together in the index.
For anyone who doesn't know, and wants to see it, Kenneth's army record is free to view on ancestry's Canadian site, in Canada, WWII Service Files of War Dead, 1939-1947
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k1g/
John
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Thanks Jon...live and learn :) Does the age fit? ie born 1916 ish?
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I think it's fair to say that the birth date in the army record will not match with the 1939 record. This could, of course, be because it's not the same person! But it's hard to see who else it might be, and there's usually an indication in the 39 Register of when the change of name was reported
I'm sure the details in 1939 would fit with the age in the Surrey Advertiser.
She may have fibbed about her age perhaps, and we have seen that your Veronica could be a bit naughty!
I can't find the address for her next of kin, the sister, Mrs R Williams (and does her sister being next of kin imply that her parents were dead?)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k1h/
Perhaps someone will have some ideas about that address.
I still have an intangible feeling that we might be missing something, somewhere!
John
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Request for electoral register lookup here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=770868.new#new
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:) John, I know what you mean. I've tried to find others who would fit the bill, but trying to eliminate them, without throwing lots of money at certificates, is rather subjective! I've been going through the military records again. Would it have been more difficult to get permission to marry an 'older woman' at that time? Records show 2 May 1944, that he was given permission to marry 'after 29 June 1944'. Interestingly he had been assigning 30 dollars of his pay to his mother but changed it to Veronica from Feb 1944. so it all fits in with the 1943 marriage!
Like you say..there is something out there that will make everything drop into place. Please God make it soon ;D
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Thank you John for the information regarding Kenneths records, they are certainly interesting.
I do hope that this marriage certificate gives more clues, please let us know when it arrives.
Rosie
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I've figured out the address for her sister - it is 11 Rhos Dulyn (Terrace) which is in Nebo,therefore Caernarfon being the county not the town.It is consistent with a record under Rhosdalyn for M A Williams,born 1904,wife of Robert(hence the "R").
Regards
Roger
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Great news! Thanks Roger. It's all coming together! I think :-)
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Perhaps the names Margaret or Mary,sometimes rendered Molly(?) is her sister("M A") and/or mother's name?
Regards
Roger
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A complete speculative leap in the dark,but the family of Margaret Jones at Hafod y Llyn,Llanllyfni (RG13/5266/163/14) are worth looking at later,perhaps even later as well with an eye to Mrs R Williams next door neighbour?
Regards
Roger
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Roger ;D
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/51956663/person/26877309614/facts
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Sorry,that link only leads to a subscription request!
Regards
Roger
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Sorry Roger...I'll try cut and paste, if not transcribe tomorrow. In essence, from a family tree...
Robert Williams b24/6/1904 d 18/4/1966 at 11 Rhos Dulyn
married
Mary Ann(e) Jones b 20/2/1903 @ 6 Tram Road, Penygroes d1996 (11b, 410)
I haven't found her family yet but it's one for tomorrow! ;)
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Thanks for that.
Regards
Roger
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Look separately in the next census for William and Richard Jones who are at Tyny Werglodd,16,Penygroes (RG13 5268/77/12),close to Bronllyfnwy, in 1901.
Regards
Roger
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I have continued looking at the same family because of the addresses at 6 and 7 (Old) Tram Road,and have now found the following:-
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3460623/3460628/32/
I don't speak Welsh but it looked reasonably certain that Richard was killed in France in 1916-interesting in light of the proposed 1916 birth of Veronica/Olwen.
I then found details of Richard as follows(part transcription):-
Jones Pte Richard William
Son of William and Laura,6 Dram(sic) Road,Penygroes
Husband of Susannah Mary......Blaenau Ffestiniog
(1901 census has her as Mary)
Then this:
Marriage Sep 1903 Festiniog
Richard William Jones to Susannah Mary Owen
And finally,the nearest I can find to a birth
June qtr 1916,Llandwrog,Olwen M Owen-Jones
Pity about the "M"(maybe it stands for Monica and Veronica was her monicker!!)
Not sure where to go next.
Regards
Roger
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Just to confirm the newspaper cutting
SAD NEWS: Penygroes received some sad news from the battlefield. Mr William Jones, a county council worker of Old Tram Road, received word that his son Richard had fallen in France on the 9th of this month. he was a married man aged about 33 who lived in Ffestiniog with his wife and 3 children. He was carrying comforts to injured soldiers when he fell to the ground. he joined the army about a year and a half ago and had been in France for some months
this was dated 18 July, so if he didn't leave for France until Spring 1916 there was every possibility of a posthumous birth for Olwen
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Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Rank:Private
Service No:20220
Date of Death:09/07/1916
Age:33
Regiment/Service: Royal Welsh Fusiliers 14th Bn.
Panel Reference: Pier and Face 4 A.
Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Additional Information:
Son of William and Laura Jones, of 6, Dram Rd., Penygroes, Carnarvon; husband of Susannah Mary Jones, of 6, Old Tanymanod Terrace, Bethania, Blaenau-Festiniog.
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And finally,the nearest I can find to a birth
June qtr 1916,Llandwrog,Olwen M Owen-Jones
You mean
June 1916 Carnarvon 11b 703
Jones, Olwen M.
mother Owen
Also indexed as Owen-Jones
She is Olwen Mai Jones and looks like she is in Gwyrfai R.D. in 1939
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Looks like that's not the birth then.
Regards
Roger
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Apologies but I have been trying to find the answer....without success! Thanks to you folks who have become interested, and spent time and effort. There are more red herrings in this than the best of the who dunnit brigade could possibly conceive...as Blackadder may have said! :D
I'll continue using the pointers that you've given me and if there is anything of substance I'll post!
I'll keep working on the 'sister' connection.
The marriage certificate should arrive mid week so fingers crossed!
Thanks again,
Colin
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Hopefully the marriage will give the link we need. Too many Jones /Williams/ Owens etc in Nebo area to speculate as to who her parents are ;D
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The marriage certificate has arrived and it confirms our thoughts. The Kenneth Rice details we knew, but we have...
27 November 1943
Veronica Olwen Jones, aged 23 years, Spinster, Hospital assistant laundress, resident at Ottershaw Isolation Hospital, Ottershaw, Father RICHARD JONES (deceased), slate quarry man.
They had a child, Carol Rice, born 4 September 1944 ( Kenneth was K.I.A. 6 September 1944 and is well documented).
Veronica stayed in Surrey but was 'repatriated' as a 'war bride' in 1946. As yet I can't establish what happened thereafter albeit her repatriation address was to her mother-in-law, Betsy Rice, Archerwill, Saskatchewan.
I can't find any further reference to their child, Carol Rice. She certainly didn't travel to Canada with her mother.
My primary interest is now post 1946 though I don't want to create any distress or embarrassment. It would dot the Is and cross the Ts!
The quest continues! ;)
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Thanks for the update-it gives yet another variant on her age,though!.
Regards
Roger
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Thank you for letting us know.
If her father was Richard who died in 1916 she must have been older than 23 when she married ::)
Rosie
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In case the 1944 birth was adopted you may want to look at these options :-\
(Links taken from post on similar subject by dawnsh :) )
https://www.gov.uk/adoption-records/the-adoption-contact-register
http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/default.htm
http://www.missing-you.net/categories/adoptions.php
Perhaps it would also be worthwhile posting on the Canada boards in case Veronica stayed there and someone is able to find something on her. I gather their BMD's are not so easy to find as the UK
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Clutching at very long straws :-
Saskatchewan
www.christiesfuneralhome.com/home/obituaries/print/id/2038584/fh_id/14590
It was in Rokeby that John met the love of his life- Veronica (Nonnie) Rice, and the two were married on May 14, 1949.
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Clutching at very long straws :-
Saskatchewan
www.christiesfuneralhome.com/home/obituaries/print/id/2038584/fh_id/14590
It was in Rokeby that John met the love of his life- Veronica (Nonnie) Rice, and the two were married on May 14, 1949.
According to google maps, Rokeby is 136 miles from Archerwill
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Sadly, I don't think it can be the right Veronica
Going on a photo of the gravestone, under her name it says
CPL CWAC WWII
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cansacem/yorkton/g72.jpg
Which I think must be a reference to the Canadian Women's Army Corps
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Thanks Jon, At least that eliminates her :)
Rosie
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Apologies...Friday evening so now I can catch up. I find that I now have two projects; one backwards and the other forwards!
Backwards. Roger, you are spot on with the problem. I'm coming to the conclusion that ages and DOBs are highly suspect. The age relies on the accuracy of the newspaper report. We had to 'interpret' the real name. I still believe that your discovery of the sister's address holds the answer.
Robert Williams m. Mary Ann Jones. Birth records of offspring confirm mmn. Jones.
There was a Mary Ann Jones born Q4 1902 Carnarvon district (that would include LLanllyfni) 11b, 849.
Robert Williams m Mary A Jones Q2, 1927 Carnarvon district 11b, 849.
The Williams tree shows Mary Ann Jones born 20/2/1903, 6 Tram Road, Penygroes.
I've been in contact with the Williams tree owner who has given me a contact for more info...I'll email over the weekend.
The 1911 census at 7 Old Tram Road shows Richard Jones, b 1880, LLanllyfni. Daughter Mary, aged 8, b. 1903. Wife Mary, aged 29, b 1882 LLanwnda.
The problem is that the interesting birth records don't give a mmn! >:(
Forward...thanks Rosie and support! ;)
I have that item on file. It didn't fit.
I'll keep trying!
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For mothers maiden name on births before 1916 use G R O website,
It is the site that you order certificates from.
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The 1911 census at 7 Old Tram Road shows Richard Jones, b 1880, LLanllyfni. Daughter Mary, aged 8, b. 1903. Wife Mary, aged 29, b 1882 LLanwnda.
The problem is that the interesting birth records don't give a mmn!
Now that you have brought up the family in 1911, the puzzle is that the likely maiden name for the mother seems to be Hughes, not Owen
June 1911, Carnarvon, Katie Jones - mother Hughes
June 1905, Carnarvon, Matty Jones - mother Hughes
March 1903, Carnarvon, Mary Anne Jones - mother Hughes (plus two plain Mary's, mother Hughes, March + June 1903)
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Thanks Jon...I didn't find mmn. So close to pressing the self destruct button :'(
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Susannah Mary Owen's mother's maiden name was Jones - no sure if that's any help as Humphrey Owen and Dorothy Jones married in 1869, although she had at least 1 child prior to that (a son)
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Modified:-
There is a Jane Hughes at 6 Tram Road in 1901(RG13/5268/67/33),who is with a William Jones in a later census.Need to check whether there are two William/Richard,father/son combinations in danger of being mixed up(by me!)
Regards
Roger
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The Richard Jones KIA in 1916 is not the one identified at 7 Old Tram Road,as the KIA man can be identified in the last census as per the obituary.Perversely,it looks to me that it is his father,William, with Jane Hughes(who is given as 6 Old Tram Road in 1901),in the last census.
Further,I think that William Jones at 7 Tram Road in 1901 is not the father of the Richard who appears there later.
If I am correct the only conclusion to be drawn,I think,is that Veronica Olwen's birth is not confined to 1916 or previous,in the same vein as Rosie's earlier point.
Regards
Roger
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I've followed through on the trees on Ancestry and have mailed the owner of a very relevant Williams tree. I've fingers crossed on a helpful response but the account has been inactive for 10 years!
It indicates that prior to Mary Ann Jones' marriage to Robert Williams she gave birth (no father) to Richard Owen Jones, 11 April 1924 (Caernarvon, 11b, 658 fits) at Pembroke House, Penygroes. It also states that he had one brother! No more information.
Thanks all.
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At least I think that confiirms to me that Penygroes births come under Llandwrog sub-district on NorthWalesBMD!
Regards
Roger
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That leads me back to wonder about the Vera Jones 1916 birth on NorthWalesBMD.
There are two 1916 births on FreeBMD,one in March quarter(mmn Owen),(as per the date in the 1939 register) snd a Vera W in September quarter.
Regards
Roger
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FindMyPast have been excellent they have changed the transcript for that 1939 entry to initial V (from W) in less than 14 days ;D
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Roger, Probably irrelevant but something rang a bell! After Kenneth Rice was K.I.A., and Veronica still in Surrey, there is a form P.64 in his records detailing all relatives who may have call on his estate. It looks like it was completed, hand written, by a J.P. in the presence of, and answered by his mother Betsy Rice. The widow of the deceased has been entered as Vera (Rice). Presumably that is the name that the family in Canada knew her by. It is dated 7 November 1944 and, unfortunately gives her age as 23.
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Not sure what to make of this one, but worth adding in the mix
Familysearch has the death of a Veronica Olwen Aman in 1971, Prince George British Columbia, born 17 March 1916 Canarvon Wales, divorced wife of Walter Aman
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLTW-VJ1
The date in March is the same as in Kenneths Rice's application to marry her (year not)
I cant find a marriage to discount it
Mar
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Yes 17th March 1922 in Kenneth Rice's military record.
Regards
Roger
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I made an early start! I've found two distinct Walter Amans, both born 1916 and died 1990! Number 1 can be tracked birth, parents, census, newspaper and death to Medicine Hat, Alberta. Number 2 is interesting in that I can't find any record until voters' list 49,53, and 58 in Nanaimo, Vancouver Island British Columbia, and death 6/12/1990, Nanaimo.
Probably coincidence but interesting that he appears in 49 shortly after she arrived.
I can't view the documents but would they provide more information? As this Veronica is dead is it now acceptable to post on the Canada board?
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Hi Colchester, would be great to know if the 1971 death is her.
I checked about posting and found this old advice post
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734212.msg5795441#msg5795441
also here is a link to the Prince George Genealogical Society
http://cangenealogy.com/pg/who_we_are.html
Mar :)
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In double checking I find that I had reversed the Vera Jones records in 1916.It is the Vera W Jones in the March quarter(FreeBMD),consistent with the 1939 Bristol record(birth 11th Jan 1916).Furthermore,the new GRO index information has her as Vera Wynne Jones,obviously close to Veronica Olwyn,the variant spelling of Olwen frequently used in Kenneth Rice's records.
Regards
Roger
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Freesearch of 1939 has a possible match for a Vera W Jones in Liverpool born Jan 1916 - I did not play with search to find the day :)
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I have found a copy of Veronica Olwen Aman's registration of death, a very sad end to her life I'm afraid.
Here is the link
http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/abf577ef-0b92-46e1-aef9-cea3db1fb86d
Margaret
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Great detective work!
The "25 years in Canada" perfectly fits the emigration record.
Pity it says father and mother unknown.
As you say,a very sad end.
Regards
Roger
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The rotated writing down the left hand side of the document says vital statistics obtained from ?? Chapel in Nanaimo, so does that link her to the Walter Aman who died 6/12/1990
Mar
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I would say Westwood Chapel.The location does seem to fit.
Regards
Roger
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I have found a copy of Veronica Olwen Aman's registration of death
Brilliant finds, Margaret. And yes, a very sad end.
There's a funeral notice in the Prince George Citizen, 3 November 1971 (page 12). Has her surname slightly wrong!
OMAN - Mrs. Veronica Olwen Oman of 855 Burden St. passed away suddenly at her home on Friday Oct. 29th at the age of 55 years. Born in Carnarvon, Wales. Resided in Prince George for the past four years and worked in the Simon Fraser Hospital and Prince George as a Practical Nurse. Had resided in Nanaimo, B.C. for twenty-one years where she was a member of the women's auxiliary of the F.O.E. No. 15. Is survived by a son, a daughter, a grand-daughter. Memorial Service will be held on Wednesday Nov. 3rd in Westwood Chapel of Flowers at Nanaimo at 7 p.m.
I've removed the names of the younger generations.
Will this link work?
http://pgnewspapers.pgpl.ca/fedora/repository/pgc:1971-11-03-12
John
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Thanks John, the link works :)
Mar
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I emailed Prince George Genealogy as you suggested Margaret...but you folks have overtaken me. It's all coming together and I can't thank you enough. I wouldn't be here now if it weren't for your interest, support and expertise!
Of course answers create questions so I'd like to continue and 'fill in the blanks' forwards and backwards! e.g. 25 years in Canada, 21 years in Nanaimo, 4 years in Prince George...so little time in Archerwill.
I'll be following up on the offspring but obviously don't want to 'post' anything...so all PMs welcomed :)
Colin
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Good luck Colin
I hope you get the answers you need about more recent history
Will PM if I find anything
Margaret
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Looking backwards,if the KIA 1916 Richard Jones is not the father of Veronica,then the one at 7 Tram Road in the last census remains the best candidate.It seems to me likely that the occupant of No.9 in 1939 is him(including the occupation of the "deceased" Richard as per Veronica's marriage certificate),despite some other minor differences.This implies he died between 1939 and 1943.There appears at least one decent candidate on FreeBMD aged 61 in 1940,possibly matching one on NorthWalesBMD under Llandwrog.
Regards
Roger
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I had a sudden realisation that if Carol Rice was adopted it would be entered in the birth register so was in the process of ordering from GRO and decided to do a death search. I've no idea why nothing has shown up previously elsewhere but I had a result.....
Carol Rice, QD 1944 (age 3 years but probably a transcription error, likely 3 months), Caernarvon, Vol 11B, p403.
I've ordered the death certificate so hopefully it will help with the Jones family search.
The story becomes yet more tragic!
Regards,
Colin
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I have just checked the typed copy of the index page that can be viewed on freebmd and it does not show on there ::)
Thank goodness we have the new GRO index to fall back on. Interesting that the death is Caernarvon reg district ;D That index does not differentiate between weeks/months or years so as you say 3 months.
She certainly had more than her fair share of tragedy :'(
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Carol Rick on the original GRO index.
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...and it's on the North Wales BMD!
sub district Llandwrog, ref: CAED3/43/99
::)
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I now have the death certificate for Carol. Tragic; but it confirms our thoughts and provides more clues. May I scan and attach?
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Hi Colin, I have seen parts of certificates posted - often to help read reason for death, an address or name.
Margaret
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I have seen full certificates posted,but to be sure there is a "Contact Support" red button at the bottom right of the home page.
Regards
Roger
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Best to be safe! Transcribes..
Died 23 December 1944 AT 11 Rhosdulyn, Nebo, LLanllyfni, Gwyrfrai R.D.
Carol Rice, F, 3 months
of 11 Copes Road, St. John's, Woking, Surrey. Daughter of Kenneth Melvin Rice, L/sergeant L10399 Canadian Artillery (farmer) (deceased).
C.o.d. Convulsions due to Gastro Intestinal disturbance.
NOW THE GOOD BIT! Informant: John R. Jones, uncle, 4 Llenar (or Llevar) Terrace, Pontllyfni, Clynnog.
I can't search 1939 for the facts (too expensive for me) but we're on the right track!
It proves that the address of the sister holds the answer (GO ROGER)
I haven't had any response from the holder of the 'Williams' tree so I can't substantiate contact.
As it stands I have...
Richard Jones...Father
Offspring...Mary Ann Jones b. 1902, Olwen Veronica/ Veronica Olwen or ? Jones born 1916 (or 22, or 23 depending on the document), John R.
That 1939 search on address would be so useful!
Thanks team! ;D
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A search of similar named streets brings up Lleuar Terrace Pontllyfni
:)
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I've found the address,and the head of household appears to correspond with the son of Richard Jones of 7 Old Tram Road as found in the census data,and therefore brother to Mary Ann of 11 Rhosdulyn,and presumably to Veronica Olwen,though it is not possible at this stage to rule out the possibility of a "half brother/ sister" relationship,if Richard remarried between 1911 and Veronica's birth.THe initial data suggested a mmn of Hughes for children pre 1911,but we have not found a reasonable similar option for Veronica(I think).
Regards
Roger
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To my mind it still points to the family in 1911
Free index to 1939 has a John Richard Jones born 1900 living with Laura E. Jones in Gwyrfai R.D.
Admittedly there are a lot of John R Jones of various ages listed there.
Playing with the birth month, a la Rosie, suggests it might have been October
So,
Dec 1900 Carnarvon 11b 380
Jones, John Richard
mother Hughes
Which still leaves the problem of Olwen Veronica. If she was one year older than she later admitted to being, maybe
March 1915 Carnarvon 11b 712
Jones, Olwen
mother Hughes
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I was saying the same about the family as jonw65,but in a more roundabout way,but hadn't considered the 1915 birth.There are two entries in NorthWalesBMD,both Llandwrog sub district.
Regards
Roger
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I don't want to create problems...but...was Veronica a name that she came up with because Olwen didn't sound good in the Southern workplace? The birth certificate that I have as a child says Veronica...there is no reference to Olwen. It's only in the newspaper article that we see a reference to Orwen Veronica Jones. Of course that has taken us back to her roots. Was she simply Olwen? I wonder what proof of identity would be required in the 1940s?
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Have I missed something?Which certificate "as a child" do you have?
Regards
Roger
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Apologies....I mean the birth certificate for Molly Jones.
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The 1939 register index living Bristol was for Olwen V Jones
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OK Rosie. That's settled then! ;)
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Also the electoral registers for both the Woking & Ottershaw address had her as Olwen V Rice ;D
I am really pleased that it is all coming together ;D
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I've had no reply from the originator of the 'Williams' tree that contains Mary Ann Jones. There's been no activity for over a year and as it is there to view I feel I can link to it. Although it doesn't provide any information on her parents it does give details for Robert Williams, her husband, his parents, siblings etc. It also indicates that she had a son prior to the marriage, and states that he had one brother. There seems to be quite a bit of half siblings going on!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/53300333/family?cfpid=13488375316
If there is no access I can put a zip file together.
Also I made a couple of calls to Canada (from phone listings) and waiting for a response!
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Hi Roger, no access I'm afraid without subscription
Mar
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OK. I'm away for a couple of days but will put a file together as soon as I return.
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An update! I'm still working on the 'forwards' in Canada (she seems to be something of an enigma)...but...the 'backwards' was irritating! So I started working on a zip file and then names, places started to drop into place... so I wanted to tell you that your input has been paramount . I'll transcribe and scan what I'm working on but just wanted to let you know that....
We know that Veronica's sister, Mary Ann, married Robert Williams. We know that Veronica also had a brother John R. Jones.
I reckon that her brother married Robert Williams' sister.....
John Richard Jones (1900-1983) married Laura Ellen Williams (1908-1985)
John Richard Jones: born 18 October 1900, Bell Vliew, Penygroes, died 13 June 1983, 4 Lleuar Terrace, Pontllyfni.
Laura Ellen Williams (1908-1985) born 3 August 1908, PontyCryddwr, Llanllyfni. died 4 August 1985, 29.Ty.n Caeau, Llantairpwll, Ynys, Mon.
It's great to look over the past pages of the post (particularly the later ones :) )
So where do WE go from here? ;)
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Even though we have not positively identified a birth/baptism record for Veronica/Olwen,are you confident her parents/family are the ones at 7 Old Tram Road and,if so,do you want to trace her parents "backwards".The only other option I can see at the moment is a speculative purchase of a birth certificate based on best information to date,though I suspect there wouldn't be unanimity on which one!
Regards
Roger
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Roger, you are spot on. It's reached impasse. So much time spent trawling; theories but nothing that ties up! It's frustrating that I've had no response from the 'Ancestry Williams' tree that is so specific. I'll continue transcribing and pm to all...if only for curiosity.
As you say Roger, it's a case now of certificates. I'm waiting for a call from my 'Molly' so that I can give her the financial reality of continuing the search. Personally I don't like loose ends but it's a question of limits.
Whatever the outcome...thanks for everything.
Regards,
Colin
Cheers,
Colin
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Has anybody found them in 1901? There should be Richard, Mary, and John Richard, presumably in Penygroes. But I can't see them.
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There is a possibility they are in Llandwrog at RG13/5269/60/25 with Richard's father John.
Regards
Roger
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Looks very promising, Roger!
Hopefully it's another piece of the jigsaw filled in.
John
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1939 entry for John R & Laura E Jones matches their info in reply 112
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Roger; you've nailed it! So it's Richard J. (John?) Jones! Not that it's important but can you identify where father, John Jones was born?
I've had a talk with 'Molly' and she agrees that there is no point going further 'backwards'. It's now back as far as Veronica's Grandparents! She admitted that she had thought that there may still be half siblings, here in the UK, but we've established that it is highly unlikely! Indicators are that there is at least one half brother and one half sister in Canada (though odds are they don't know it) so that avenue is worth pursuing, and I'll update on any progress. Not that it's easy!
That leaves the enigma that is 'Veronica'. I'd like to put some meat on the bones because I feel there must be an interesting story there. If certificates are needed along the way then so be it. Obviously there is no urgency (thanks for all your time and effort) but it would be great if you would stay with me.
Oh; I had a look on GRO for Katie Jones, age 0 on the 1911, and her mmn was Hughes, 11b, 375.
Thanks all,
Colin
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;) Richard John Jones m. Mary Ann Hughes Q4 1899, Carnarvon, 11b,798 ?
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In the 1901 original John Jones(1848) is given born Llangybi.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangybi
I'll try to see if other data backs this up.
Regards
Roger
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This could be the family in 1881in Rhiw Las,Llanllyfni
RG11/5562/137/66
John again given as Llangybi.I haven't strictly traced back from there,but the nearest 1851 entry is H107/2513/163/1which would give you a couple more generations,but this would need a lot more work to verify.
Regards
Roger
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Strangely, I can't see any Richard John Jones registered in Carnarvon, if that is going to be the right district again, at the appropriate time. Quite a few John Richard Jones registrations.
Throw this school record in, just in case, as again it seems to be the right area (wiki -Talysarn, village in the slate quarrying Nantlle Valley, part of the community of Llanllyfni, includes some of Llandwrog)
Talysarn Boys School
Richd J Jones
born 8.9.79
admitted 19.10.85
father John Jones
doesn't give a date when he left, but says Left for Quarry (like most of them)
I put that d-o-b into the 1939 free index search, and it did not bring up a match.
I believe we think Veronica's father was unlikely to be alive then.
And it does seem probable that her mother's maiden name was Hughes, as discussed before.
John
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I have lost track of what has been found in Wales but this looks like the death of Mary Ann Jones son (born before her marriage to Robert Williams according to the tree)
Birth 11 Apr 1924
Death Registration May 1999
Age at Death 75
Reg district Caernarfon
Gwynedd
Reg Number 49
District/Subdistrict 8421
Entry Number 127
Do we know who it was that he was living with in 1939 :-\
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Only one Richard O Jones 11-4-1924 in 1939 with Evan & Kate Jones 1877/8
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;D I know what you mean Rosie...I reckon we're all suffering from 'Jones overload syndrome'.
I've been testing the idea that 'Veronica' was from a second marriage but have found nothing tangible. I'm with Jon on the Olwen Jones, Q1, 1915 birth, mother Hughes. 'Veronica' has proven to be very creative with names and birth dates so I've ordered the birth certificate.
We've found nothing that substantiates 'Veronica' as a birth name; or have we?
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No, we have not found anything that substantiates Veronica as a birth name ;D
Rosie
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Still waiting for the certificate and, hopefully, some response from Canada! I know it's not important but I thought I'd work on the information that you've thrown into the pot.
I think I'm attaching a basic 'backwards' synopsis (never tried to do this) :-[
Colin
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Thanks for PDF.I would say the information is a "working hypothesis",particularly the leap for John Jones between 1851 and 1881(proposed by me as a possibility only)On what basis did you choose the 1841 data for Owen Jones?I am not saying you are wrong,I would just like to check it out.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger,
I'm happy with a 'working hypothesis', that's all it was meant to be. I worked through original scans, linking actual dates and places of birth, family members, etc, and rejected unlikely places, occupations, eg farmer, shopkeeper. It was simply a 'best shot' but I'll go through my notes tomorrow and try to substantiate the theory.
Regards,
Colin
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Roger,
I've gone back over my notes and still think I'm on the right track :)
1861...working on the farm
1871 RG09/4328/74/4: married to Mary, from Abererch. With his mother....or the wife's?
Dates, places, relatives circumstantial...but compelling! ;)
I'm attaching a hand written tree that may help with my theory.......but I expect to be beaten around the head! ::)
Regards,
Colin
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Veronica's birth certificate has arrived, and guess what!
Born:17 March2015
At: 7 Tram Road, Penygroes, LLanllyfni R. D.
Name: OLWEN
Father: Richard John Jones
Mother: Mary Ann Jones (formerly Hughes)
Occupation of father: Private, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 6th Battalion, (Quarry labourer).
Signature, description, and residence of informant: Elizabeth Jones, present at the birth, 13 Water Street, Penygroes, Llanllyfni.
HOORAH! Well done folks.
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That is brilliant, I am so pleased for you (and Molly) ;D
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Excellent news,but there may be more tragedy.It is possible Richard was KIA in May 1915.I need to recheck the data to make sure I have the right Richard.
Regards
Roger
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He was discharged 29 Oct 1918 being no longer physically fit for war service - Address 7 Tram Road
He got 100% disability pension (General paralysis) -Weekly pension 27s 6d plus 20 shillings for 4 children. Regimental no 193982 in Labour Corps. -
Married Mary Hughes 6 Oct 1901
Children John 1900, Mary 1903, Mattie? 1906, Catherine 1911 & Olwen (I can't read the date ::) )
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Thanks,Rosie.The Richard I found had the wrong next of kin.
Regards
Roger
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Lots of pages of records on F.M.P - British Army Service Records His first no 1931
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I notice(I think!),that as is often the case,when the birth year is "modified",the day/month are kept the same - 17th March.(Kenneth Rice's military record).
Regards
Roger
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I wonder if the sellotape in 1939 helped make the day wrong - though the rest is also slightly out
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OK. I give up! I can't find the FindMyPast records (even though I pay for it)...I know I'm a fool ::)
Presumably 'young' John Richard had left home at the time of the pension...hence four children.
But...the only marriage that I can find, that fits, is Q4, 1899...Richard John Jones and Mary Ann Hughes.
Tormented.
Colin ;)
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Try this:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7271891%2f24%2f233
Regards
Roger
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Thanks....yet again :-[
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An update for those who have supported my quest. After months of little progress I've finally had the breakthrough. I was aware that 'Molly' may have a half sister and half brother in Canada. A few cold 'phone calls' last week and I hit gold. Regrettably the brother has passed away but the two half sisters are in contact. Quite a shock as she no idea of a half sister in England.
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Thank you for updating us ;D I am really pleased that you have managed to make contact with them and that our searches found the right family. I hope 'Molly' will be able to enjoy her 'lost family'
Rosie
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I echo that sentiment.The "chase" is also so much more satisfying with a clearly positive end!
Regards
Roger
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Very new to this. Just been doing some late night research into my late (last week) Grandmother's family. Parents were Robert and Mary Williams and she grew up in 11 Rhos Dulyn, Nebo. Very certain Mary was Veronica's (Olwen) sister. If anyone picks this up by Tuesday would be good to add a bit of colour to the family history.
Noticed there was talk of a williams family tree on ancestry also so I could look into who was looking at it.