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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: steveg6638 on Thursday 04 May 17 17:33 BST (UK)
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I'm hoping that I may be able to get some help or guidance regarding a particular brick wall concerning my great great grandmother.
She is shown in the 1881 and 1891 censuses as Elizabeth Walker, the wife of William Walker a fisherman, in Butts Street, Annan. In 1881 she is stated to be 24 and born in Ruthwell. In 1891 she is stated to be 35 and born in Annan.
In the 1901 census she is shown, along with her family, at Johnstone's Place, Scott Street, Annan, where she is said to be 44 and born in Ruthwell.
I have traced the birth records of the various children shown in the census records, and their mother's maiden surname is said to be Henderson.
Death records show that Elizabeth Walker died on 22nd January 1916, aged 61, at 12 Queensbury Street, Annan. Her parents were given as Andrew Davidson and Jeanie Davidson M.S. Henderson (both deceased). Presumably Andrew Davidson was a step father and Elizabeth was born illegitimately ?
The implied birth year from the census returns and death record is between 1855 and 1857.
However I'm unable to trace a birth in Ruthwell or Annan around this time for an Elizabeth Henderson.
Neither can I find a marriage record for William Walker and Elizabeth Henderson which matches to the known facts. The only one I can find is in 1879 in Kinning Park, Lanarkshire, where William Walker is 37, Elizabeth Henderson is 33, and their parent details don't match to what I know on either side.
The marriage of Andrew Davidson and Jeanie Henderson is also a mystery.
If anyone has any thoughts or guidance to help me with this branch of my family, I'd be very grateful.
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Hi Steve
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Have you seen the original birth certs for any of the children of Elizabeth and William Walker? Normally, parents' marriage details are included on the birth certs of their children as routine from the early 1860s (and 1855).
Monica
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Just beat me to it Monica.
Steve - a welcome to RootsChat from me too.
The parents named on Elizabeth's death certificate may not be accurate, it happens depending on who the informant was.
Monica has given excellent advice regarding information on birth certs of her children.
Dumfries-shire is not very far from the English Border could Elizabeth and William have married there?
Dorrie
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Hi Monica and Dorrie,
Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, I have looked at the birth records of the children and the mother's maiden surname is stated to be Henderson.
The current problem is finding the birth of Elizabeth Henderson or her marriage to William Walker.
On the children's birth records various dates are given for the marriage -
28th April 1876, Annan
May 1867, Annan
May 1876, Annan
August 1871, Annan
September 1879, Annan
Unfortunately none of these bear any fruit. The only marriage of a William Walker and an Elizabeth (or variant name) Henderson that I could find anywhere was the 1879 one I mentioned in my post which doesn't match to the other facts.
Their first child was born in 1877.
I did look across the border as well, as some of the Walker ancestors were from Cumberland - but no luck there either :(
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I forgot to add that the informant of the death of Elizabeth Walker M.S. Henderson was her son William John Walker who would have been about 26 at the time.
The maiden surname on the death record matches to that on the children's birth records, and I'm working on the assumption that Elizabeth's mother married at some point after she was born, with Andrew Davidson being her step father.
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Hi Steve
There is a marriage on Scotlandspeople for Elizabeth Henderson to William Walker in 1879 in Kinning Park....Glasgow. Don't know if you have Ancestry but there is some information about Joseph and Amos
Karen
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Hi Karen,
Thanks for the response.
I did trace the 1879 Kinning Park marriage, but unfortunately the ages and parents name didn't match.
In this marriage William was stated to be 37, whereas the William Walker from Annan would have been 22 (confirmed from birth record). Elizabeth was stated to be 33, whereas Elizabeth Henderson from Ruthwell or Annan would have been around 22-24 if the other documents are to be believed.
I am on Ancestry - same user name as here and have a public tree. Joseph and Amos Walker are two of William and Elizabeth's sons.
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Had a quick look at Joseph and Amos. This family tree business is interesting and also very frustrating....keep coming up against brick walls with my tree too.
Good luck. The people on here are very good and I am sure someone will knock down that wall for you
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Morning Steve,
Clutching at straws here but have you looked/ruled out the following births on Scotlandspeople Index? I did a search with just putting the surname of Henderson, female, births 1855 to 1858 in Dumfries-shire and these are what I came up with.
1. Elizabeth Henderson - born 1855 in the Parish of Kirkmahoe - its 3 miles from Dumfries.
2. Mary Elizabeth Henderson - born 1857 in the Parish of Tundergarth - its 3 miles from Lockerbie.
Perhaps known by her middle name.
3. Elisabeth Henderson - born 1858 in the Parish of Hoddom - its 4 miles from Annan. Notice the
spelling of her name an S instead of a Z.
I would look at number 3 first.
Let us know how you get on.
Dorrie
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Dorrie, these entries for births show on Family Search:
1855 - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYT9-H8F
1857 - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYPN-Q8M
1857 - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYR3-DBB
It is a puzzle for sure what happened to Elizabeth's early years and her origins :-\
Monica
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Thanks Monica and Dorrie, for your assistance.
It is indeed a mystery, and the fact that she gave 5 different marriage dates when registering her children's births makes me wonder what was going on.
Would it have been possible or not unusual at this time in Scotland, for couples to be unmarried ?
I even checked a birth of an Elisabeth Brown Henderson in Ruthwell in 1963, but again her mother's name didn't match - aside from the fact that if it was the right person, she'd have only been 14 when her first child was born!
It's very difficult when the only known details are a mother's name of Jeannie Henderson (I assume this could also be Jean or Jane) and the implied birth dates from the census returns and death certificate.
If Elizabeth was born illegitimately, could there have been any paternity cases brought ? If so, do you know how I would be able to track down these records ?
My only other angle is the names of Simon Davidson and Jeannie Davidson m.s. Henderson that are given as parents on Elizabeth's death record. But I have no idea of when or where they might have married.
Steve
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Steve, have a read through on this www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=578172.0 A great summary on social history and broken down by different events of BMDs. It looks like they probably didn't marry doesn't it, at least not in a way that was recorded on the statutory registers...maybe an irregular marriage which whilst not that common did happen in Scotland at that time.
Was the name of Elizabeth's father given on her death reg Andrew or Simon Davidson (you have mentioned both)? Was there a specific occupation given for him?
Maxwell Ancestry has been busy adding to their database of paternity cases in Scottish Sheriff Courts. See http://maxwellancestry.co.uk/courtsearch.aspx
What I think is particulary a problem for you now here is finding a young Elizabeth in both 1861 & 1871. She seems consistent in her birth place being Annan/Ruthwell with a birth year c. 1855-57 doesn't she. Family search is pretty good at picking up on their indexes on most post 1855 Scottish births up to around 1875 or so. Nothing really showing there or SP so far from what we have is there :-\
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for the links, and apologies for the mistake in my last post. It should have been Andrew Davidson, who was recorded as a general labourer.
Steve
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Just checking the Valuation Rolls index on SP for 1855:
Andrew DAVIDSON
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE PORT STREET
ANNAN
1855
VR000200001
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Just come across this on the Maxwell site. I wonder whether it would be worth pursuing ?
Do you know what sort of detail is usually provided in this type of record ? Would the child's name be mentioned ?
Pursuer Jean Henderson, Lockerbie
Defender Francis McGlasson, son of and residing with John McGlasson, Innkeeper, Lockerbie
Year of Child's Birth 1856
Year Extract Isssued 1857
Sheriff Court Dumfries
County Dumfriesshire
NRS Reference SC15/7/31 p. 274
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Some notes here that explain further www.scottishindexes.com/learningcourt.aspx
Scottish Indexes is part of Maxwell Ancestry. Emma, co owner often posts here on RC, such as www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=748727.msg5963989#msg5963989
Monica
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Thanks.
It's a shame that the notes say that the child is not normally named.
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I might be way off track here, but isn't Annan near to Gretna Green? Could they have skipped over and got married there maybe!
Gretna Green, Scotland, Marriage Registers, 1794-1895 - Ancestry.com
search.ancestry.com search db dbid...
Ancestry.com. Gretna Green, Scotland, Marriage Registers, 1794-1895 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2009. ... Original data: The Lang Collection of Gretna Green ...
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Thanks for the input jaybeinz.
However whilst my Walker ancestors were in Cumberland, England, until around 1841, William Walker was definitely born in Annan, Dumfries-shire, Scotland (1856) and the later census records for Elizabeth Henderson indicate she was born in Dumfries-shire as well (around 1855-1857).
Regards
Steve
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I wonder whether I'm making some headway with trying to trace the birth of Elizabeth Walker M.S. Henderson. However if I'm on the right line, it's throwing up more queries!
I've found an Elspeth Henderson born in 1856 in Ruthwell, showing on SP - so right place and right time frame
Her birth record shows an illegitimate birth on 2 Feb 1856 with the parents being named as Jessie Henderson and James Campbell (Ag Lab) - looks like in Clarencefield.
I understand that Jessie can be a pet name for Jane, Janet and Jean - so a possible connection to Jeanie (Jeanie Davidson m.s. Henderson, given as parent's name on Elizabeth Walker's death certificate)
Elspeth is shown on the 1861 census (age 5) in Cummertrees with her mother Jessy and presumed half sister Janet Little (age 3). There is an entry on Family search for the birth of Janet Christina Henderson with mother Jessie Henderson in Cummertrees on 15 Oct 1857 - so presumably this is Janet Little.
On the 1871 census there is an Elizabeth Campbell (age 15) as a servant in the Johnston household at a farm house in Brydekirk.
I can't find Elspeth/Elizabeth Henderson/Campbell after 1871, and this would fit with her now being Elizabeth Walker on the 1881 census.
The mother of Elspeth/Elizabeth, Jessie Henderson appears on the 1881 census in Murray Street, Annan with her daughter Janet Henderson, son John Henderson, and grandchildren from Janet of Jessie and John J.
There is a similar entry in 1891 (Rose Street, Annan) with the addition of James and William (presumed further grandchildren)
In 1901 (Rose Street again) the daughter Janet is recorded as being the head of the household (although she is entered as Jane on the transcription). There is the addition of an Agnes aged 5 - unknown as to whether a daughter of Janet or the younger Jessie.
I understand Murray Street and Rose Street are both adjacent to Butts Street where Elizabeth Walker and her family resided.
There is a record on SP for the death of an illegitimate Jessie Henderson in 1907 (age 72). Strangely it appears to show her father as a James Davidson! Ironic as Elizabeth Walker's death record shows her parents as Andrew Davidson and Jeanie Davidson m.s. Henderson (working assumption Jessie Henderson)
My difficulty currently is trying to link Jessie/Jeanie Henderson to Andrew Davidson, to validate all of the above.
I've found an Andrew Davidson in Annan born about 1822, but he was married to a Mary Davidson going back to at least 1861, and he pre-deceased his wife. Their son also Andrew was born about 1859 in Annan and was married in 1883 to a Margaret Rule.
So neither of these Andrew Davidson's help the mystery of the parents names given by Elizabeth Walker's son on her death record.
I was wondering whether anyone had any further thoughts on other sources I could investigate, or whether I should ignore the Davidson name and accept the other evidence as validating my great great grandmother as being Elspeth/Elizabeth Henderson/Campbell ?
Regards
Steve
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Well done Steve :) I can see the logic and steps to what you have found. From what you saw on the birth cert from 1856, if this the correct one, her father showed as James Campbell on the cert?
The flicking back and forth with surnames for illegitimate children you often see at this time.
Now the question of the Andrew Davidson showing on Elizabeth's death reg, with her son as informant, you would think is just confusion by her son when reporting. 100% proof likely hard to find.
For this period, finding christening entries is impossible normally online. Pre 1855, when you do find them, sponsors' names can help if family members were acting as sponsors.
Monica
PS: If you haven't come across this site before, it is great for picking up on first name variants such as www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Jean.html
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Hi Monica,
Yes James Campbell was showing on the birth record on SP for Elspeth Henderson, with mother as Jessie Henderson.
I did find the link between Jeanie and Jessie from the whatsinaname site. As you said, a very useful site. I don't think I could have ever guessed at a link between the two names.
The death entry for Jessie Henderson looks like it says that she died at 22 Butts Street in Annan (SP are trying to get a clearer scan for me). However Jessie doesn't show among the names on the Valuation Rolls for this year, at this address.
I don't know whether it is just another co-incidence but William Walker (Elspeth/Elizabeth Henderson's presumed husband) was showing as a tenant at 22 Butts Street in 1902.
The Andrew Davidson link, as a presumed stepfather, is the thorn in all of this. Have I just picked the wrong Elizabeth Henderson, or has her son some how got it wrong when reporting her death ? With this uncertainty it makes me question whether I'm on the right path or not.
As Elspeth's birth was in 1856, would there be baptismal records held somewhere ? Could local churches in Ruthwell hold them, or the county records office ?
Steve
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You have a lot of circumstantial material there to be feeling more confident. Pain that Elizabeth does not seem to have a statutory registration of a marriage to William :-\ By the sounds of it, likely that 'mother and sister' you have also got by without a marriage either....
In respect of local church records, I don't know but hopefully someone can advice. Maybe also contact the Dumfries and Galloway Family History Society for advice on this?
Monica