RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: KatieJJones on Friday 05 May 17 10:54 BST (UK)
-
Hi RootsChat.
I'm pretty new to Scottish Ancestry and so far I've seen quite a fair few differences between searching Scotland Ancestry and England Ancestry so I'm hoping some people can help here.
I'm looking up a woman by the name of Isabella Heron born 1924 in New Cumnock. I don't know what her parents are called so I have no idea how to take a generation back from this and as I'm sure you all know the Birth Registrations on the Scottish gro don't list Mothers Maiden names which... actually surprised me.
I looked up a male Heron marrying before 1924 and 2 have caught my eye. One in Old Cumnock and one in New Cumnock. I don't know anything about Scottish Geography so I don't know where places in Scotland are without using a map.
I was wondering if people knew any pretty good websites to help me or at least their input on this matter.
Thanks a bunch!
-
Hi the indexes on SP don't note mothers maiden name but the certificates give you so much more information than English or Welsh certificates. If you get her actual birth certificate it will give her parent's names and date and place of marriage.
Old and New Cumnock are very close to each other, right next to each other in fact, 7 miles from the centre of one to the centre of the other.
-
Just to add to what PharmaT has posted.
The 100 year rule applies - so you will have to order her birth certificate.
The only other way to view without actually buying it would be to go in person to their centre in Edinburgh or the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. Probably not an option for you.
Once you have the information from her birth certificate it is fairly straight forward to register and use the Scotlands People site. You buy blocks of credits.
Hope this helps.
Dorrie
-
How much is a Certificate? and what do the Credits actually do? Do they just supply a preview?
-
I've never actually bought a certificate as I'm close enough to go to the Mitchell. The credits allow you to view scans of the original records for all events that are old enough.
-
Oh interesting. Thank you :)
-
I'm pretty new to Scottish Ancestry and so far I've seen quite a fair few differences between searching Scotland Ancestry and England Ancestry so I'm hoping some people can help here.
First of all, forget about Ancestry if you want to do basic research in Scotland.
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
I'm looking up a woman by the name of Isabella Heron born 1924 in New Cumnock. I don't know what her parents are called so I have no idea how to take a generation back from this and as I'm sure you all know the Birth Registrations on the Scottish gro don't list Mothers Maiden names which... actually surprised me.
Why does that surprise you? Mothers' maiden surnames have only just been made available in the official England and Wales birth indexes before 1911.
The reason for this is that until 1929 the original printed indexes of births in Scotland didn't have this information. Scotland's People are gradually adding this information to the indexes, but it means going back to the original registers, and progress is very slow.
I looked up a male Heron marrying before 1924 and 2 have caught my eye. One in Old Cumnock and one in New Cumnock. I don't know anything about Scottish Geography so I don't know where places in Scotland are without using a map.
Old Cumnock and New Cumnock are both in Ayrshire. See http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/AYR
I was wondering if people knew any pretty good websites to help me or at least their input on this matter.
Scotland's People is the only source of the information you want. It is an excellent web site, but as with all web sites, you need to be aware of its limitations. Once you have got used to it, you will find that the information available from statutory civil birth, marriage and death certificates is far better than what is available for England and Wales. As pharmaT has already said, Scottish certificates give you far more information than English ones.
You won't be able to look at that 1924 birth certificate online, because it is less than 100 years ago. (You can't view marriages less than 75 years ago, or deaths less that 50 years ago, online either).
You can either order a copy, or you can ask if someone who is planning a visit to a Scotland's People Centre would be willing to look it up and transcribe it for you. The former method is quicker and more reliable, but the latter method is cheaper.
You use credits to view the full certificate online, so to get all the information recorded on a certificate will cost you only £1.50. Much better value than buying an English one for £9.25, and you don't have to wait for it to be posted to you!
Did Isabella marry or die in Scotland? If so her marriage and death certificates will tell you the full names of both her parents, including her mother's maiden surname.
BTW the Scottish indexes usually include full middle names. I find it surprising (and very inconvenient) that after 1911 until about 1975 you only get initials in the English indexes.
I noticed that Isabella Heron had a middle name McAught... so I took a look for a marriage between a Heron and a McAught... Lo and behold, William Heron married Isabella McAughtrie in New Cumnock in 1911. There are five other Heron births in New Cumnock with middle name McAughtrie
Thomas, 1912 (died 1988, New Cumnock)
Robert 1914 (died 1982, New Cumnock)
Mary H 1918
Sarah 1920 (died 1920, new Cumnock)
Sarah C 1925
And three births of Herons without middle names
Margaret 1916
Janet 1919
Alexander 1927
I speculate that Isabella McAughtrie Heron was a sister of the other Herons who had the middle name McAughtrie, and therefore that her parents were William Heron and Sarah McAughtrie.
Did any of Isabella's children have the middle name McAughtrie?
Noting that William and Sarah's marriage reference number is 30, i.e. theirs was the 30th marriage registered in New Cumnock in 1911, and that there were 31 marriage registered in 1911 in New Cumnock, William and Sarah must have been married towards the end of the year, so there is no point in looking for them as a couple in the 1911 census.
Unlike in England, the deaths of married women are indexed by both their maiden and their married name. (The English records don't record mothers' names on either marriage or death certificates, and English death certificates don't even name the father of the deceased. I find this surprising).
Sarah McAughtrie or Heron, aged 72, died in Dumfries in 1965. As this is more than 50 years ago, you can view her death certificate online for 6 credits (£1.50)
So IF you think that your Isabella was the daughter of William Heron and Sarah McAughtrie, you can very easily work back a generation or two from her parents without needing Isabella's birth certificate. On the other hand, you might prefer to get Isabella's birth certificate, just to be sure that she was their daughter.
-
One more question.
Does ScottishPeople website have a complete list of all Births and Marriages?
-
Does ScottishPeople website have a complete list of all Births and Marriages?
Scotland's People is part of the General Register Office for Scotland, the government agency that records (among other things) all births, deaths and marriages in Scotland. Registration was mandatory from 1855 onwards, so in theory every birth, marriage and death in Scotland since 1855 is there.
There might be the odd one that, in definace of the law, was not registered - I have one marriage I cannot find, even though I know the date and place of it as stated on the couple's daughter's birth certificate - but one thing is certain: if it isn't on Scotland's People there is no other place where you will find it. (It's much simpler than in England, where registration wasn't mandatory until 1872, and you needed to know which church a marriage was in in order to find a record.)
Also, almost all of the pre-1855 registers of the Church of Scotland are held by Scotland's People, and they also have access to all the Roman Catholic and many of the Free Kirk registers, so again you don't generally need to traipse round individual churches looking for registers unless your relatives were members of the Episcopal Church or one of the dissident sects whose registers are not available on Scotland's People.
-
The short answer to your question is YES.
They hold all Scottish records from 1855 when it became mandatory to register all births, deaths and marriages. Prior to that date they hold the surviving Old Parish Registers.
Just go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and it will explain it all to you.
Dorrie
-
Thanks very much to all of you. Was just checking as I can't find one person but I'm going to keep looking. Thanks again!
-
Who is the person you can't find, and when?
-
Who is the person you can't find, and when?
I am looking for Thomas Mcaughtrie. He was born in 1827 and I'm unable to find his death registration.
-
There is a death in 1892 for a Thomas McAughtrie age 65 in Irvine, Ayrshire.
This is from the Scotlands People index.
Could this be who you are looking for ?
Dorrie
-
There is a death in 1892 for a Thomas McAughtrie age 65 in Irvine, Ayrshire.
This is from the Scotlands People index.
Could this be who you are looking for ?
Dorrie
Looks about right thank you :)
-
Forfarian, and Katie - I have been just reading this thread with great interest, as I have a Heron/Connection - my grandfather was a McAughtrie, from New Cumnock, and one of his sisters, Isabella, married a Heron. I think I have her in a family photo as well, and I'm more than happy to share what I have, possibly a marriage cert as well.
I'll have to go to my private tree on Ancestry in the morning to check on the details for you, but I'll be in touch again as soon as I can, I have a crowd coming for lunch tomorrow, so will probably be later on in the day, so watch this space! I'm up late tonight, so the brain's a bit fuzzy right now.
I'll also look through the many other Thomas McAughtries in my tree in that timeframe, make sure I give you the right one!
If you could PM Me your email address, I will be able to send you an invitation to view the tree if I can find the right entry and certs.
Cheers
Jeanne
Modified to add, sorry, I got the dates wrong, it must be another one of my Thomas McAughtries. I'll have a more thorough check through my certs in the morning. All the McAughtries pretty well stuck to the Scottish naming patterns of naming the first born son after the father, and there are loads of cousins to each other with the names Thomas McAughtrie.
-
Forfarian, and Katie - I have been just reading this thread with great interest, as I have a Heron/Connection - my grandfather was a McAughtrie, from New Cumnock, and one of his sisters, Isabella, married a Heron. I think I have her in a family photo as well, and I'm more than happy to share what I have, possibly a marriage cert as well.
I'll have to go to my private tree on Ancestry in the morning to check on the details for you, but I'll be in touch again as soon as I can, I have a crowd coming for lunch tomorrow, so will probably be later on in the day, so watch this space! I'm up late tonight, so the brain's a bit fuzzy right now.
I'll also look through the many other Thomas McAughtries in my tree in that timeframe, make sure I give you the right one!
If you could PM Me your email address, I will be able to send you an invitation to view the tree if I can find the right entry and certs.
Cheers
Jeanne
Modified to add, sorry, I got the dates wrong, it must be another one of my Thomas McAughtries. I'll have a more thorough check through my certs in the morning. All the McAughtries pretty well stuck to the Scottish naming patterns of naming the first born son after the father, and there are loads of cousins to each other with the names Thomas McAughtrie.
Sounds absolutely intriguing! I cna't wait!
I've managed to get back too 1670-ish right now but now records are running incredibly low now
-
Hi Katie! Does the following search result make sense to you??
ISABELLA MCAUGH
ALLAN
WILLIAM MORGAN
1958
608/ 1
1
New Cumnock
*****
On checking my records and a family photo and searching at Scotland's People, I have confirmed that Sarah Cowan McAughtrie was my McAughtrie Grandad's sister, (the daughter of Thomas Cowan McAughtrie and Mary Houston), born in Kilmours Ayrshire, who was married to a Heron, ( I have Sarah's birth certificate) and the family photo also shows that their sister Isabella (known as Bella) was married to a McEwan)
I have also found what appears to be the Heron McAughtrie Marriage search result on SP, and have ordered it, as I'm thinking this will be helpful for me anyway. I haven't been able to view the full record on SP.
Certificate: Statutory Marriages (551961, HERON, ISABELLA MCAUGH,1958, Female, 608/ 1)
ISABELLA MCAUGH
ALLAN
WILLIAM MORGAN
1958
608/ 1
1
New Cumnock
As soon as I receive the full cert, I will send you a copy, of the photos and what certs I have in this regard, so if you could PM me your email address that would be great. I can send you the family photo as soon as I have your email address.
I hope this makes sense - my brain is totally fried yet again, and I need to sleep! 🤔🤔😄😄
Finger crossed I'm on the right track for you!
Jeanne 🌺
-
Hi Katie! Does the following search result make sense to you??
ISABELLA MCAUGH
ALLAN
WILLIAM MORGAN
1958
608/ 1
1
New Cumnock
*****
On checking my records and a family photo and searching at Scotland's People, I have confirmed that Sarah Cowan McAughtrie was my McAughtrie Grandad's sister, (the daughter of Thomas Cowan McAughtrie and Mary Houston), born in Kilmours Ayrshire, who was married to a Heron, ( I have Sarah's birth certificate) and the family photo also shows that their sister Isabella (known as Bella) was married to a McEwan)
I have also found what appears to be the Heron McAughtrie Marriage search result on SP, and have ordered it, as I'm thinking this will be helpful for me anyway. I haven't been able to view the full record on SP.
Certificate: Statutory Marriages (551961, HERON, ISABELLA MCAUGH,1958, Female, 608/ 1)
ISABELLA MCAUGH
ALLAN
WILLIAM MORGAN
1958
608/ 1
1
New Cumnock
As soon as I receive the full cert, I will send you a copy, of the photos and what certs I have in this regard, so if you could PM me your email address that would be great. I can send you the family photo as soon as I have your email address.
I hope this makes sense - my brain is totally fried yet again, and I need to sleep! 🤔🤔😄😄
Finger crossed I'm on the right track for you!
Jeanne 🌺
Hello yes thats the right woman I'm looking for :)
-
That's great! It might take about a week or so for the Scotland's People marriage cert, to get to me, as it seems that it will be posted. I'm in NZ, so if you can send me a PM with your email address, I can get the family photo and other certs off to you in the meantime.
Now, I still haven't got to bed yet, so I'd better get some shuteye!
-
Heron/ McAughtrie Marriage Cert. located. It states that Sarah Cowan McAughtrie, the daughter of Thomas McAughtrie and Mary Houston - married Alexander Heron son of Maggie Heron (no father named) at the New Cumnock United Free Church 22nd December, 1911.
I have emailed a copy to Katie, and now just looking for Isabella birth cert.
-
Heron/ McAughtrie Marriage Cert. located. It states that Sarah Cowan McAughtrie, the daughter of Thomas McAughtrie and Mary Houston - married Alexander Heron son of Maggie Heron (no father named) at the New Cumnock United Free Church 22nd December, 1911.
I have emailed a copy to Katie, and now just looking for Isabella birth cert.
Alexander Heron is the illegitimate child of Margaret Heron and Alexander Campbell
-
Thank You Katie! 😄
-
Thank You Katie! 😄
You are welcome :)
-
Right - from the Marriage Cert., which arrived yesterday. Sorry Katie, won't be able to send you a copy of this one, as my scanner is kaput!
Marriage Date 10 January 1958 - at The Martyrs Church, New Cumnock -After Banns
The marriage of William Morgan Allan - Coal Miner- Pithead worker aged 24 - Bachelor
Usual Place of Residence 16 Farden Avenue, New Cumnock
Father - James Allan - Coal Miner - Beltman
Mother - Agnes Allen MS Campbell
and Isabella McAughtrie Heron - Cotton Mill Worker (Spinster) aged 33
Father - Alexander Heron - Coal Miner - (Packer)
Mother - Sarah Heron MS McAughtrie
Witnesses Wm. Milligan, Auchinleck and Esther Dodds, New Cumnock.
Officiating Minister - ?C. Macpherson - Minister of New Cumnock Martyrs Church,
Registered at New Cumnock January 13th, 1938
(The Martyrs Church was built in 1833, and is a " B"listed building).