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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Herefordshire => England => Herefordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: janjim on Tuesday 09 May 17 01:01 BST (UK)
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I am looking for first marriage of Thomas Gwilliam who was born in 1811 at Goodrich.
1841 census shows him as living at Lillarsbrook House, Whitchurch, working as a Servant, he was a Widower aged 30 years. Also working at the same place, was a Susannah Haines. He eventually married Susannah at St. Thomas Church Monmouth Wales on the 31 January, 1843. Thomas Gwilliam then became a Servant for a Clergyman at Monmouth.
Wonder if anyone could assist me in checking parish records, to see what happened to Thomas Gwilliam in regard to his first marriage and most likely his wife's death.
Regards
Jan
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Possible marriage.
Thomas Gwilliam - Mary Bailey. 1834 Walford, Herefordshire.
Mary Gwilliam. death 1839 Ludlow.
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the Mary Gwilliam whose death was registered at Ludlow shows as 58 on the new GRO search. 1841 census doesn't show marital status so he may or may not be a widower by that stage.
Whitchurch, Walford & Goodrich are in the south of the county bordering Monmouthshire not that this is helping to find a burial for certain. There is a death registered in the Abergavenny district for a Mary Gwillim dec qtr 1839 aged 31, haven't found a matching burial as yet.
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1841 census
There is a Thomas Gwilliam, 30, with Susannah Gwilliam, 40 in Church Stretton, Shropshire.
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Hi everyone,
Don't think that one of Thomas & Susannah Gwilliam for 1841 census is ours as shown by you Solidrock. Thank you for that. As far as we can determine Thomas Gwilliam & Susannah Haines in 1841 census at Whitchurch, is definitely them, before they married in Monmouth in 1843.
This has been quite a journey finding this family, we have now come up with a John Gwilliam b.1800, which seems to be Thomas Gwilliam's older brother, through DNA match and subsequent family contact, we have ascertained that this John Gwilliam was sent to Australia as a convict, sentenced to death, but reduced to 14 years transportation.
It would be good to confirm whom Thomas Gwilliam married on his first marriage, as we have marriage certificate to Susannah Haines, in 1843 at Monmouth Wales, where he is shown as a Widower. So could easily be Mary Bailey, wondering if Parish records show the names of parents of Thomas Gwilliam to Mary Bailey.
Thomas Gwilliam was son of William Gwilliam b. 1776 Harewood and Margaret Matthews, married at Pencoyd 1st September, 1779. William & Margaret Gwilliam had John b. 1800 , Mary b. 1803, Thomas b. 13.11.1811, James b. 1814, William b. 1814, George b. 1817 all born at Goodrich then Ann b. 1820 at Hentland.
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parish marriages don't have the names & occupations of fathers as civil registration ones do. There should be 2 witnesses who may be related. Just checked the Forest of dean site for details, witnesses John Morgan & William Webb, both spouses made their mark. Thomas signed on his marriage to Susanna so may not be correct marriage.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/
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the Thomas & Mary in Walford are not the right couple as there's a baptism to them in 1850 & they're on 1851 census - ref HO107/1976 folio 372 pg 21.
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Thank you. Yes the marriage certificate shows Lucy Haines and George Tuder as witnesses to their marriage, father of Thomas Gwilliam is William Gwillim, Labourer and father of Susan Haines is William Haines. We have been able to connect up with these people.
Wonder if in the Parish Records, could be found any children to Thomas Gwillim and Mary Bailey.
Married in 1834 and she died in 1839, quite a possibility of children during that period.
jan
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as per my previous post, Thomas & Mary do have children, all bp Walford
James 14 Dec 1834
Hester 20 Dec 1840
Elizabeth 10 Dec 1843
Thomas 1 Sep 1850
also a son John born c.1848 and a son George born c.1854
Mary buried 4 march 1864 aged 55
Thomas bd 23 Dec 1877 aged 74
Definitely not your Thomas.
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Possible marriage.
Thomas Gwilliam - Mary Bailey. 1834 Walford, Herefordshire.
Mary Gwilliam. death 1839 Ludlow.
Thank you Osprey, I am referring to this previous posting, Mary Gwilliam died 1839, did they have any children between 1834 and 1839. Sorry if I confused you.
jan
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don't think I'm confused. The Mary who died in 1839 is not Mary Bailey who married in 1834 in Walford as she is still alive and having children later and did not marry your Thomas anyway
birth regs as examples
Elizabeth Gwilliam dec qtr 1843 Ross vol 26 pg 215 mother's maiden name Bailey - bp 10 Dec Walford
Thomas Gwilliam sept qtr 1850 Ross vol 26 pg 250 mother's maiden name Bailey - bp 1 Sep Walford
The Mary Gwilliam death registered in Ludlow in 1839 is unrelated to this family, she was 58. There's a death registered at Abergavenny in 1839 which is possible but I haven't spotted a burial for any extra info, or a possible marriage to your Thomas. There is a possible marriage at Llanfoist 25 Dec 1838 of a John Gwilliam & Mary Cawthorn which could account for the Mary Gwilliam death registered at Abergavenny in 1839.
The 1834 marriage of a Thomas Gwilliam in Walford is not your Thomas. The previous marriage of your Thomas has not been found as yet. I'll have another look later. Forget the 1834 marriage and 1839 burial, they are unrelated.
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Thank you so much Osprey, I was getting confused !!
jan
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Purely from a geography point of view the marriage in Llangarren 11 Dec 1829 of Thomas Gwillym
And Rachel Williams might be a possibility, unless they are in the 1841 together
Mike
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working through Thomas Gwilliam marriages in Herefordshire to start with
sep qtr 1838 registered Weobley to Susan Morris - daughter registered 1845 mother's maiden name Morris
jun qtr 1840 reg Presteigne to Margaret Meek - daughter registered Sep qtr 1847 Presteigne with mother's maiden name Meek
18 Dec 1841 to Eliza Williams in Michaelchurch Eskely - couple on 1851 census
13 March 1836 to Mary Anne South at Kinnersley - son registered 1847 at Weobley mother's maiden name South, are on 1851 census
8 Jun 1835 at Ledbury to Hannah Beake - likely couple are on 1851 census in Ledbury
so, none of the above
11 Dec 1829 to Rachel Williams at Llangarren, children baptised to this marriage in same parish
Elizabeth 15 April 1830 - buried 3 Dec 1837 aged 7
Thomas 7 Oct 1834
Rachel buried 15 July 1836 aged 37
only possible so far and she was a bit older than your Thomas.
I was typing & researching so red post long time since.
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there's a possible for Thomas bp 7 Oct 1834 on the same census page in 1841 as your Thomas, with a family called Clayton in Oak Cottage HO107/431/16 folio 38 pg 4.
Haven't spotted him after this as yet.
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there's a possible for Thomas bp 7 Oct 1834 on the same census page in 1841 as your Thomas, with a family called Clayton in Oak Cottage HO107/431/16 folio 38 pg 4.
Haven't spotted him after this as yet.
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Our Thomas was born 1811, shown in 1841 census living at Lillarsbrook House, Whitchurch. Susannah Haines later to be his wife, was also living and working at the same address, they then married in 1843. So think we can wipe that suggestion out, thanking you. Will look into the other ones shortly.
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working through Thomas Gwilliam marriages in Herefordshire to start with
sep qtr 1838 registered Weobley to Susan Morris - daughter registered 1845 mother's maiden name Morris
jun qtr 1840 reg Presteigne to Margaret Meek - daughter registered Sep qtr 1847 Presteigne with mother's maiden name Meek
18 Dec 1841 to Eliza Williams in Michaelchurch Eskely - couple on 1851 census
13 March 1836 to Mary Anne South at Kinnersley - son registered 1847 at Weobley mother's maiden name South, are on 1851 census
8 Jun 1835 at Ledbury to Hannah Beake - likely couple are on 1851 census in Ledbury
so, none of the above
11 Dec 1829 to Rachel Williams at Llangarren, children baptised to this marriage in same parish
Elizabeth 15 April 1830 - buried 3 Dec 1837 aged 7
Thomas 7 Oct 1834
Rachel buried 15 July 1836 aged 37
only possible so far and she was a bit older than your Thomas.
I was typing & researching so red post long time since.
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Looking at last, one marriage to Rachel Williams, our Thomas would only have been 18 when he married Rachel in that case, making her 12 years older than him, think that one would be crossed out, probably.
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Thomas Gwillim and Susannah Haines were living and working at Lillarsbrook House, Whitchurch in 1841 census. Also living at the same property were Caroline Meek, Daniel Meek, Mary Meek and Eliza Jones. So you say there is a registration 1840 for a Margaret Meek, but she must still be alive when our Thomas & Susannah married, as she had a daughter Margaret in 1847. So we can cross that one out. Interesting to see the Meek connection. Wondering where is Presteigne in relation to Whitchurch or any villages nearby? Having copy of marriage certificate for Thomas & Susannah, showing Thomas as a Widower at that time, does confirm prior marriage.
Now to update on other details, Thomas Gwillim was son of William Gwillim b. 1776 at Harewood and Margaret Matthews. In 1841 census, his father William Gwillim was living at Michaelchurch, aged 66 years, by 1851 census, he was living with his son Thomas Gwillim and Susan (Susannah) at Monmouth.
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I'm not following you.
the only vaguely possible marriage I gave you was the one to Rachel, all the others I have eliminated. As I said, none of the above.
If Thomas did have a son from his first marriage, why wouldn't be boarded out with a family just a few houses away in the village where he was living?
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Yes, thank you Osprey, I was still trying to work out if Thomas would have married when only 18 years of age to Rachel Williams, and it appears she would have been 12 years older than him, quite unusual, but possible. Sorry having misread your previous posting, yes, and with Rachel having died in 1836, when son Thomas was only 2 years of age, quite possible that he was living with another family.
Thomas Gwilliam's Grandmother was Elizabeth Williams, she died in 1820 at Pencoyd near Harewood. I have been to Harewood, a few years ago, see that Whitchurch is not that far away.
Looking more likely that he was married to Rachel, even though quite an age gap.
jan
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Okay, having re-read your posts, and checked copy of 1841 census for our Thomas Gwilliam and Susan Haines living at Whitchurch, I see now, yes Oak Cottage, and a Thomas Gwillim with the Clayton family. Looks like aged 6, from the writing, probably him, it seems obvious as you say, he was being cared for a few doors away. I do apologise for not picking up on that previously.
Wow this could be him, I don't have access to Ancestry at the moment, but have checked UK BDM and see there is a William Gwillim who died in 1844 at Monmouth, age, I do not know, but it is possible that maybe this Thomas was living with his Father and his new wife Susannah Haines, they married in 1843. I probably need to check Monmouth Parish Records to confirm.
Thank you so much for this Osprey.
jan
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Osprey,
At this stage, we have possibly found this young Thomas Gwilliam had died in February, 1844 aged 9 years, he was living in Monmouth, Wales. Further checking to do, but it seems quite logical that maybe the young Thomas living with the Claytons, then moved to Monmouth once his father decided to marry Susannah Haines in 1843. He would have been just over 9 years of age, and seems to fit in. So yes, looks like Rachel must have been the first wife of Thomas.
Jan
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if you use the GRO online index, you can check the age at death. You need to register, but it's free
William Gwillim aged 84 dec qtr 1841 Monmouth vol 26 pg 60 - burial in Monmouth has age of 83, abode over Monnow
The 1847 Monmouth death reg was age 2, and the one in 1851 0
Haven't as yet found a burial for poor young Thomas.
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Thanks Osprey, we have William Gwillim aged 75 years living with Thomas & Susan Gwillim in 1851 census, so must be another Gwillim's death in 1841.
Jan
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Hi again,
If you read the census for 1851, it actually says
William gwilliam FATHER IN LAW.
Looking at the marriage transcript for Thomas and Susannah, it says her father is William Gwilliam. I think Susannah was married previously to a Haines but her maiden name was Gwilliam. Perhaps she was a cousin of Thomas's.
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Hi Middlesbrough,
Yes you are right, I agree with you about "Father in Law", and I queried that, at the time of seeing the census information. You would expect the information was correct, and it would be Susan's father, but having done research on Susannah's father, William Haines, he was a Cooper bap Much Birch in 1782, his first wife Sarah Essex (Mother to Susannah) died in 1830. William and Sarah had daughters, Eleanor, Susannah, Ann and Lucy.
William then married Mary Watkyns in 1833, they were living at the Old Shop Much Birch in 1841 census, following the trade of Cooper. 1851 census shows them living in Hereford Road aged 70 years.
But interesting to note is that Mary Watkyns came from Wattstown, Monmouth, his daughter Lucy Haines and a George Tudor were witness to Susan's marriage in 1843, she was a Servant in Monmouth and Lucy & George later married and settled in Monmouth. Also other daughter Ann died in Monmouth. So it seems to be that much of the Haines family settled in Monmouth
The marriage certificate of Thomas & Susan in 1843 clearly states William Haines a Cooper, as Susan's Father and William Gwillim as Father of Thomas Gwillim, Labourer. So in that 1851 census in Monmouth, it does show William Gwillim - father-in-law as a Labourer.
So as a result of all of this information, I decided that William Gwillim in their census of 1851 must have been incorrect. Of course I stand to be corrected !! Talk about confusion.
William Haines is later shown in 1861 census was living with his son-in-law William Cooper at the School House, Much Birch, aged 81 years and apparently died in 1862.
I await your further thoughts now. Thanking you for your patience.
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Yes I see what you mean. There is a transcription on Find My Past for the 1843 marriage and it clearly states the father of Susannah is William Gwilliam (exactly the same as Thomas's father) so probably it has been transcribed in error. That's what threw me. So we are back to looking for the burial of William sometime between 1851 and 1861. Do you have the baptism record for this William?
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Just found something very interesting in the Monmouthshire Beacon dated 2nd September 1854.
SUICIDE: An old man nearly 80 years of age, of the William Gwilliam, , committed suicide by hanging himself on Thursday, the 24th August. He was discovered dead in a hedge (on the field side) adjoining the Ross and Hereford Road, not far distant from Peterstow church and about 2 1/2 miles from Ross. The bough to which one end of the cord was tied, was not more than 3 feet from the ground, consequently he effected his purpose by placing the cord around his neck and assumed a sitting or lying posture, thereby causing strangulation. An inquest was held on Saturday last, when a verdict on Temporary Insanity was recorded.
How sad!
Surely this has to be a possibility. So now I will look for a death record in 1854
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Wow, that is interesting, very sad. All I have for William is bap. 1776 Harewood, his parents William Gwillim and Elizabeth Williams. His Father died 12.4.1814 Harewood.
So his age in 1851 census is shown as 75 years (I think that is what it reads, looks like a 5!)
but he was living in Monmouth then, and you would think possibly he would be staying in the area.
Wondering anything in the Parish records for him then.
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GRO search shows up 3rd quarter 1854. Age given as 79. Ross is only 8 miles from Monmouth. I feel quite confident that this is him.
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nothing in the parish registers
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Yep, sounds like doesn't it, how sad. Isn't it a shame that certificates in the UK do not provide as much information as the ones in Australia. Thomas's death certificate in 1859 does not show too much, no wife information or family.
Was there something in the Parish Records for his son Thomas's death in 1859 about his parents?? The trouble is too, there are so many variations of the Gwilliam spelling.
But looks like it could be him, the age is approximately right.
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Nothing on the parish registers I'm afraid. You're right about the certificates. The Scottish ones are brilliant too. They names spouses and parents, so much more than the English and welsh ones. If there's anything else I can look up for you. let me know.
Julie
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Got to think about this, there could be other things I need to find out, but I think we have reached a conclusion on the family really. That was Thomas Gwillim's young son that died in Monnow Street, and now am pretty sure that must be our William Gwillim who hung himself.
As you say it's only about 8 miles away, not that far to walk really, when you think about it, we walked miles in our youth, and he could have been heading back to his other family back in Goodrich or anywhere around that area.
Whether it is worth getting death certificates for the two of them, I'm not really sure.
Thanks ever so much for all of your assistance.
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While we are still on the same track with the Gwillim family, wonder if you might be able to help me with this one. Our Thomas Gwillim b. 13.11.1811 Goodrich had siblings we believe, John b. 1800, Mary b. 1803, James b. 1814, William b. 1814, George b. ?? and Ann b. 1820 Hentland. I need to reconfirm all of these issue being from William Gwillim b. 1776 at Harewood. We believed that he was married to Margaret Matthews.
In the last few weeks, I have had this DNA match with a descendant of John b. 1800, (which would appear to be our Thomas Gwillim's elder brother) who was sent to Australia in 1832 as a convict, but in their family tree documentation, they say John's Mother was Mary. Now I am quite confused, as to whether our Thomas Gwilliam's Mother was definitely Margaret Matthews. It certainly looks like we've got the right William Gwilliam as his father, as we've found him in Monmouth, and took his life in 1854.
Maybe another thought tank, might help me with this question. But if we can find the full issue of William Gwilliam b. 1776, that would be absolutely great.
Jan
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I see what you mean because there were two baptisms for a William born in Goodrich.
William 21.8.1814 par. William and Margaret
William 27.7.1814 par. William and Mary who lived at Glewston
Very difficult to work out who is who.
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Our William & Margaret Gwilliam were living at Harewood, so looks like we can count out William b. 27.7.1814 to parents William & Mary. I think that maybe this lady who has connected to me via DNA matching, must have her Ancestry tree going off the wrong track.
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GRO search shows up 3rd quarter 1854. Age given as 79. Ross is only 8 miles from Monmouth. I feel quite confident that this is him.
I now have a copy of the death certificate of William Gwilliam and also of the young Thomas Gwilliam aged 9, confirms all of our family.
thank you everyone for your assistance.