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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: adicol on Tuesday 09 May 17 11:36 BST (UK)
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Hi all
Please feel free to move this to a more suitable forum. I was stuck where to post it!
I am trying to locate the muster rolls for three ships for a research project, however, National Archives have said they don't have them online and want a small fortune to send them to me.
Does anyone else know where I can locate the rolls for the following:
Namur 1757
Charming Sally, 1762-1763
HMS Racehorse 1773
Huge thanks for your help,
Colleen
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I would say the National Archives. Seaweed will know for sure
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Hi Nifty1
Thanks for your advice.
I have tried the National Archives, but they don't have a downloadable copy of them. They are asking for £27.00 just to search for them, and then I have to pay for them sending to me, which I really don't want to have to do if they are available online elsewhere.
Thanks again,
Colleen
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TNA normally advise if a copy is available elsewhere, presumably they are holding the original.
Have you got the details from their website as to which documents require searching
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Hi Rosie99,
The Namur's muster roll is located in ADM 52/662
The Racehorse is located in ADM 52/1416
So far they can't find Charming Sally's.
Thanks
Colleen
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Just posting the links from the catalogue in case someone can help
Namur 1757
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6276495
Racehorse 1773
1771 Nov 18 - 1773 Mar 31
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6278014
1773 Apr 19 - 1773 Oct 13
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6278015
Quite a bit to wade through :-\
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This is what they appear to have on Charming Sally
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=Charming+Sally
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Hi Rosie,
Thanks for that. The April - October roll is perfect, it is the Arctic expedition I am interested so that would cover that.
Huge thanks
Colleen
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Hello Colleen,
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, mortgage the house, and pay the fees - it all depends on just how badly you want the information. I know because I've had to do it. In the end it was worthwhile though because those Chancery records I got were full of illuminating details.
However, there is a second tack available. Be "Zen" about your search. Imagine that you are that information and think of places that it may also exist.
You mention an Arctic expedition for RACEHORSE. If there is a good reference library accessible to you, spend a day there looking through the indices, bibliographies and footnotes of every book you can find on historical Arctic expeditions. It may be that someone else, years ago, has consulted the very TNA files that you are interested in. Yes, it's a very long shot but sometimes they do pan out.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Not sure if this qualifies as the Zen approach but I made a search on google thus:
("Charming Sally" + arctic)
and there are several leads possibly worth following to gain information.
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Here's a possible book to look for. There is an illustration here and the author and title of the book are given.
http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/illustration/racehorse-and-carcass-ships-among-arctic-ice-stock-graphic/700721381 (http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/illustration/racehorse-and-carcass-ships-among-arctic-ice-stock-graphic/700721381)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hello again Colleen,
Have you also considered the Master's Log for that period? It will not give *all* the names that would appear on the muster roll, but it will include some crew names.
Rosie99 quoted files in "C", but the logs are ADM files.
Reference: ADM 52/1416
Description:
Racehorse
Date: 1773 Apr 19 - 1773 Oct 13
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
Access conditions: Normal Closure before FOI Act:
EDIT: Oooops! Rosie and I ARE quoting the same file.
Any roads, by posting a look-up request for that specific file, you *may* get some success from someone who is visiting TNA anyway. Logbooks do tend to be terse so it's not going to be the hours and hours of searching that I thought it would when I first read your initial post.
Cheers,
Westoe
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More:
Basic Google search for "RACEHORSE" + "arctic" + 1773 certainly starts your list of names.
- 92 officers and men aboard
- Master = Constantine John Phipps (the voyage frequently referred to as "the Phipps expedition")
- Surgeon = Irving
- one of the Lieut's = Cumming
and that's just from looking at one hit. You dig through them all and you'll get more.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Thank you all so much for your help and the links.
I will look through them all and hopefully will be able to gather the info I require, without the need for a huge search fee!
You are all wonderful x
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You are welcome, Colleen,
But ... erm ... if there is a specific name you are hunting, you should tell it us. Some of us have access to resources a beginner doesn't.
Also ... I should have mentioned earlier .... most names mentioned in the Master's Log will be those of officers, but even common seamen could be named there by reason of death, injury or disciplinary action.
And ... in trawling through the Google hits, you'll see a discrepancy in the numbers. Page 58 of this hit:
The Arctic Navy List 1773-1873 - Page 13 - Google Books Result
https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1781514275
Clements R. Markham - 2012 - History
In the company of the “Royal Arctic Theatre,” and acted Sir Lucius O'Trigger in “The Rivals. ... Cumming, Mr.—Lieutenant in the Racehorse, (Phipps,) 1773.
says 92 officers and men .....
... wheras ...
... Page 7 of 27 pages of this PDF says 90 total.
[PDF]“A very interesting point in geography”: The 1773 Phipps Expedition ...
pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic37-4-402.pdf
The 1773 Phipps Expedition towards the North Pole. ANN SAVOURS (MRS. ...... rison's principles) taken to the Arctic in the Racehorse on trial, 1773. Later in.
I believe the discrepancy comes from the addition of two Greenland pilots to the company. As these were not members of the Royal Navy they would not have been included in the British figures of:
The complement to consist of
1 Commander
3 Lieutenants
1 Master
1 Boatswain
1 Gunner
1 Carpenter
1 Purser
1 Surgeon
1 Surgeons Mate
1 Cook
3 Masters Mates
6 Midshipmen
1 Captains Clerk
2 Quarter Masters
1 Quarter Masters Mate
2 Boatswains Mates
1 coxwain
1 Master sail maker
1 Sailmakers crew
1 Gunners Mate
1 Yeoman of the Powder Room
1 Quarter Gunner
1 dourer
2 Carpenters Mates
2 Carpenters Crew
1 Steward
1 Corporal -
No. of officers: 40
No. of seamen: 50
Total complement: 90
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Westoe,
I am researching the slave Olaudah Equiano for my University dissertation. He was given the name Gustavus Vassa and he claimed, and it is believed, that he was on board the Racehorse during its Arctic expedition, serving as an associate of Dr Charles Irving.
I am aware that there was a Gustavus Weston on board, who, like Vassa, was purported to have been born in South Carolina, and many academics believe this is Vassa, however despite searching Captain Phipps, and a boatswain's log, I can find nothing to suggest that this is the same man, other than a 'soundex' name. Moreover, there is no mention of Gustavus Weston being an associate - he is a ship's mate, and Charles Irvings associate is listed in Phipps log as an Alexander Gain.
I have also compared the accounts of all three men and there are many inconsistencies in Vassa's account, while the similarities are so similar it is evident that he has quoted Phipps verbatim.
I was hoping to provide evidence of the muster roll, but also to ascertain more info on Gustavus Weston, and to check if Vassa provided any other inconsistent, or plagiarised information on the Narum and the Charming Sally, which he also sailed on.
Thank you very much for the information you have provided so far, it has been a huge help. This is the first time in 14 years of Genealogy I have ever had to search for muster rolls and I am lost! x
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ADICOL: The name Olaudah Equiano came up several times in the search I offered you previously...... if you have not already found those references it might be worth looking?
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Hi MowseHowse,
Thanks for the reply. I did check your links so thanks for you help with that.
His name crops up a lot on the search because he has been studied quite extensively, however he never used his traditional African name on his expeditions; he used it later on and only to prove his 'African identity' when he was campaigning for abolition and to promote his book.
As such, any records for the ships he sailed on would have been in his 'slave name' of Gustavus Vassa, which he was given by his second master, Pascal.
Many thanks again for your help,
Colleen
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Hello Colleen,
Hmmmm. Looks as if you are going to have to go for the muster roll, though I would be inclined to try the log first. Were there many Negroes among the crew, do you know? It's just possible that he was up for discipline a few times depending on the biases of the officers and how hard he was being ragged by the seamen.
Another possibility is to try another, more marine-focussed forum such as The Mariners List
http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/MarinersList.html (http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/MarinersList.html)
I do know that there are some dedicated Royal Navy researchers there who may be able to offer you better suggestions than I, my own line being merchant shipping.
And I apologize for using the "beginner" word yesterday. I hadn't taken in how high your post count is.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Hi Westoe,
Firstly please don't apologise - I wasn't offended at all. In fairness, I am a beginner when it comes to this area!
From what I have read, there was only three negroes on board, but, of course like anything, we have to be skeptical about this information, although I have it on good authority that the muster roll for the Racehorse was correct, a few men were counted but fled at one port, so the first muster has 93 men, the second, 90.
I will check the link for the logs and thank you for your help!
Also, does anyone have any information on Lieutenant Michael Henry Pascal, particularly his movement prior to 1757?
Thanks
Colleen
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deleted
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I just want to say that I have been following this thread and find it educational and fascinating. Although it is not necessarily related to this investigation I feel that anybody will find this
https://books.google.fr/books/about/The_Trial_of_the_Cannibal_Dog.html?id=j62v1iyuKqIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y
Very interesting. I read the hard copy a few months ago and have never been so impressed by the referencing in piece of research and feel that it may be useful to anyone interested in the subject.
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Hmmmm. Looks as if you are going to have to go for the muster roll, though I would be inclined to try the log first.
While my sample size is admittedly low, from looking through the ship's books for two voyages of East Indiamen to the Far East I would say that the Ship's Log should not be your first priority.
I found the Logs to contain mainly:
Ship's position
Weather
Other vessels encountered.
Mentions of the crew were extremely infrequent and then only in the most general terms such as set the crew to swabbing the decks. When the ship was anchored the Log is even more terse.
My ancestor left his first voyage at St Helena in unusual circumstances - according to him, at the particular request of the Governor of St Helena and his ship's Captain (as he possessed a trade in which the Island was then utterly deficient). Going in I was sure the Log would mention this, but not a word was found.
The key source for crew information (at least in the East India Company context) is the Pay Book or Ledger of Wages. This did mention his discharge at St Helena but no more than the fact and the date. It also mentions the date of entering the ship and has various calculations regarding pay and levies/duties (things like purserage and Greenwich and Poplar Hospital Duties). Also it states position in the ship - Sea(man), Sailmaker etc.
For these ships there weren't muster rolls such as might be found for an infantry unit. There was a list of ship's company (from memory, loose leaves tucked inside the cover of the Log) which noted the man's position and those who had run or died of sickness and accident. That list, the Pay Book and the Receipt Book for wages paid at discharge were all that reliably related to the crew.
The two voyages mentioned departed in 1803 and 1817.
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Is it possible to obtain the muster rolls, ships logs etc. for BISN Co. ships from 1947 to 1956 ?
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Colleen
You ask for details on Michael Henry Pascal. I was wondering if you know his birth and his parents.
Thanks
Marg16
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Hi Colleen,
Here is a link to the downloadable digital edition of the book Westoe mentioned. It is the journal of PHIPPS who commanded the expeditions of Racehorse and Carcass, titled "The Voyage towards the North Pole" by John PHIPPS .
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL21667389M/A_voyage_towards_the_North_Pole
Ros