RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Heather58 on Tuesday 09 May 17 21:57 BST (UK)
-
Good evening, I have an ancestor Elizabeth Gwladys Jones (1894) in Llanddona married Oscar Morgan (1894) in 1918 Llanrug. They had a "daughter" Elizabeth Joan Morgan, born 30th April 1923 in England that's all the information on the short birth certificate. I also have a Certificate of Baptism in Penydarren, Llandaff dated 23rd October 1923, parents Oscar & Elizabeth Gwladys (Welsh spelling) of 15 Garden City, Oscar was a School Master & and the God Parents were David Edgar Morgan and Anne Elizabeth Jones (Elizabeth's mother). Oscar & family moved to Irby, Oscar died and Elizabeth G went to live in Lorne St, Chester and in 1944 at Chester Juvenile Court in Chester, Elizabeth Gwladys Morgan (widow) adopted Elizabeth Joan Morgan on the 8th May 1944. On the 1st July Elizabeth G marries Wilfred Thomas Jones and lived and died in Narborough, Leicestershire, but she is buried with her 1st husband. All these people are deceased. I can't find Elizabeth Joan Morgan's GRO index I found one for Elizabeth Jane Morgan but her parents were David Norman Morgan and Bronwen Morgan (Thomas). So if anyone can help me solve this problem I would be ever so grateful. Elizabeth G did have 4 sisters - could one of them be Elizabeth Joan's mother?
Kind regards
Heather :) :)
-
This seems a little strange if I've followed it correctly, as if Elizabeth Joan Morgan was born born 30th April 1923 and adopted 8th May 1944, she would have been over 21 so not a juvenile.
-
That's correct I have spoken to an Advisor at the Adoption Centre and they have assured me that a birth mother can not adopt her own child. I can't find Elizabeth Joan Morgan's GRO index - there must be one as I have the short birth cert - really strange.
regards
Heather
:)
-
If she was adopted, would her original birth registration be removed from the register? Did the people you spoke to explain how a 21 year old could be adopted?
-
no her original birth cert will still be there they told me that a natural birth mother cannot adopt her own child
Heather :)
-
no her original birth cert will still be there they told me that a natural birth mother cannot adopt her own child
Heather :)
I understand that, but it doesn't explain how a 21 year old adult was adopted.
-
Hi Heath
You mention you have the short form birth cert.
If this was an adoption cert there should be a reference number in the top right or bottom left in the format XXX/XXXXX
Does your certificate have that number?
What is the registration date on the short form, not the date of birth?
There is a GRO birth index and a completely separet GRO adopted childrens index. Unless you know both names before and after adoption, you cannot link the two together.
If the child was adopted into the family, her name at birth might not be that on the short form cert.
As to baptism, maybe they went through the ceremony as if she really was their birth child.
-
I'm probably reading this wrong but an adult can't be adopted. She could be taken in by a family so 'adopted' in that way.
Did Elizabeth Joan Morgan have a child of the same name in 1944 ?
-
" Elizabeth G did have 4 sisters - could one of them be Elizabeth Joan's mother?"
If it was one of her sisters child, she would be registered has Jones and not Morgan.
Margp
-
In 1939 Oscar and Eliz G appear to be living on the Wirral, using free search there appears to be an Eliz J Davidson born 1923 living with them.
Cathy
-
I think the answer may lie in the 1939 register, confusing surnames perhaps.
It is them as it tallies with the info in the death notice in June 1941 for Oscar Morgan, headmaster of West wood, Hill View Road, Irby. Wife Elizabeth Gwladys Morgan.
Cathy
-
Maybe Davidson is her later married surname, the 1939 register was updated by the NHS until 1991.
The clue most probably lies in the short form certificate, we need to wait for Heather to come back with its date of issue.
-
I'm probably reading this wrong but an adult can't be adopted. She could be taken in by a family so 'adopted' in that way.
Did Elizabeth Joan Morgan have a child of the same name in 1944 ?
That's what I can't understand a-l, she would have been over 21 so why would she have been adopted and it dealt with in a juvenile court?
-
I'm probably reading this wrong but an adult can't be adopted. She could be taken in by a family so 'adopted' in that way.
Did Elizabeth Joan Morgan have a child of the same name in 1944 ?
That's what I can't understand a-l, she would have been over 21 so why would she have been adopted and it dealt with in a juvenile court?
It may be something to do inheritance, may be its not a birth cert, but the adoption certificate
-
It may be something to do inheritance
I know people changed their names to inherit, but it sounds as if we are talking about a legal adoption and as far as I understand, in this country an adult can't be adopted.
They had a "daughter" Elizabeth Joan Morgan, born 30th April 1923 in England
Elizabeth Gwladys Morgan (widow) adopted Elizabeth Joan Morgan on the 8th May 1944
-
To be adopted, a child must:
be under the age of 18 when the adoption application is made
not be (or have never been) married or in a civil partnership
-
It may be something to do inheritance
I know people changed their names to inherit, but it sounds as if we are talking about a legal adoption and as far as I understand, in this country an adult can't be adopted.
They had a "daughter" Elizabeth Joan Morgan, born 30th April 1923 in England
Elizabeth Gwladys Morgan (widow) adopted Elizabeth Joan Morgan on the 8th May 1944
A day out on the birth for Elizabeth Davidson
-
It does sound most odd , something is amiss ???
Hi Marg P ;D haven't seen you around for ages .
-
It does sound most odd , something is amiss ???
I agree
-
Could this be her burial record
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3PB-1Y6
-
And there is this marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVD2-RP5G
-
And there is this marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVD2-RP5G
I can't access FS at the moment Marg.
-
And there is this marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVD2-RP5G
I can't access FS at the moment Marg.
Why
-
It won't accept my server :D Will sort it tomorrow if I have time.
-
Good evening, on the Adoption certificate there is a number in the top right hand corner - Application Number 7668. In the bottom left hand corner it has AA 075382. In the first left hand column it says Entry Number 1848. When I was in Manchester last week I checked the Adoption Fiche and it said Elizabeth Joan Morgan adopted 8/5/1944 Entry Number 1848 Vol 204. Unfortunately for me the have got rid of off the BMD's and only have 2000 onwards. Elizabeth Joan married Arthur Davidson, the NHS went and put the ladies married names in the 1939 register. Elizabeth Joan then married George Hughes 25th May 1946, she died in 1957. George remarried to a lady called Irene and he died in 1981. I have sent the short birth Cert, the baptism certificate & the adoption certificate to Southport with a cheque last month but as yet not heard back from them. I would have thought with the reference numbers they could easily look it up. If anyone wants to look at these certificates please send me a private message. Thank you all for your help and look forward to more suggestions.
Kind regards
Heather
-
Did the adoption have the age of Elizabeth Joan Morgan on it?
-
Are sure its 1944 and not 1934, unless they put the application in before her 18th birthday and it took that long too go through
-
how do I attach a file?
-
I have saved the cert but can't post it here?
Heather
-
Are sure its 1944 and not 1934, unless they put the application in before her 18th birthday and it took that long too go through
At that time it would have been her 21st birthday, the age of majority was not lowered to 18 until the late 1960's.
-
Are sure its 1944 and not 1934, unless they put the application in before her 18th birthday and it took that long too go through
At that time it would have been her 21st birthday, the age of majority was not lowered to 18 until the late 1960's.
Even so, she would have been over 21.
-
Are sure its 1944 and not 1934, unless they put the application in before her 18th birthday and it took that long too go through
At that time it would have been her 21st birthday, the age of majority was not lowered to 18 until the late 1960's.
Even so, she would have been over 21.
I was aware of that, I was just pointing out that the age of majority was different at that time. :)
-
I think that may be the application went in before her 21st birthday and use to take a long time for adoption too go through then, I can't see any other other reason for this
-
It would be interesting to know why, if that was the case, that it was felt necessary to adopt her at that age and not earlier as she'd been living with the family since a child. I wonder what the benefits would be?
Just thinking aloud here. If her "father" had died and had left money to her naming her as his daughter, did her "mother" have to adopt her in order for her to get the money? Would it count anyway if he was dead?
-
I have saved the cert but can't post it here?
Heather
Hi Heather
You can't attach images on the look-up request boards.
And only snippets should be posted on other boards for deciphering purposes.
I sent you a pm, did you receive it?
-
It would be interesting to know why, if that was the case, that it was felt necessary to adopt her at that age and not earlier as she'd been living with the family since a child. I wonder what the benefits would be?
Just thinking aloud here. If her "father" had died and had left money to her naming her as his daughter, did her "mother" have to adopt her in order for her to get the money? Would it count anyway if he was dead?
Adoption did not become legal till 1927 and a lot of people did not bother, I think that when the 1939 register came in it was becoming more official and that may be when they started thinking about it, Oscar died in 1941, so I think the application went in before that, has he is named on the adoption, both her parents left money but it was Administration and no Wills.
-
Heather asked about posting images which can't be done on this bit of the forum but she sent them to me by email.
She sent a short form 'birth' cert with an 1923 date of birth but issued in 1954 and an adoption cert dated 1944 but issued in 1982.
The short form is an abbreviated copy of the adoption cert just like any short form birth cert being an abbreviated copy of the traditional birth cert we are used to seeing.
Elizabeth Joan was adopted 12 days before her 21st birthday. The date of registration was 8 May 1944. The court order was made 18th April 1944.
Only Elizabeth Gwladys is named as the adopter. Her husband Oscar could not be named as he had predeceased in 1941.
I've sent an email to Heather but she may not reply here until later today.
-
Still a strange one isn't it, with so late an adoption?
-
I wonder if the OP knows anything about the living arrangements of the family or whether she knew the adopted daughter.
thinking along the same lines as MargP, it crossed my mind that maybe EG was living in a Council house and EJ needed to be recognised officially as a daughter to continue living there after EG's death. Otherwise did EJ have some sort of disability or illness that meant EG may have needed to be involved beyond the point at which children normally become independent. Or alternately, perhaps EG was ill or becoming frail and needed EJ to be recognised as a daughter to act as a guardian/attourney for her. Perhaps something had happened when Oscar died that prompted the family to formalise the adoption.
-
As I mentioned to Heather there are a couple of scenarios:
As she suggested the child could have been born to an unmarried aunt (either sides of the family) and taken in by Oscar & Elizabeth.
The child could have been a result of Oscar having a relationship with someone else.
With Elizabeth approaching 21 and Oscar having died 3 years earlier they might have decided to rectify whatever situation had occurred.
Elizabeth Joan needed a 'proper' birth cert with Elizabeth Gwladys's name as a parent on it.
-
There are numerous possibilities, there may have been inheritance implications, possibly even relating to a previous generation.
-
It certainly is a strange one . My first thought was that Elizabeth Joan had had an illegitimate child named after herself, who was adopted by Elizabeth and the elder Elizabeth 'adopted ' herself into the family. ???
Trust me to read it wrong. :)
-
Good evening - sorry for being a bit thick but what does OP stand for? I am wondering why Elizabeth Joan's GRO index isn't there. My mum & and her 2 sisters original entries are there and they were adopted by different people, plus I sent for my mum's birth certificate and it had "adopted" in the right hand margin. Hope the GRO can help me.
Regards
Heather
-
OP = Original Poster (ie you in this case) just a shorthand way of writing it.
-
Thank you - I have been looking for Elizabeth Joan Morgan's GRO index - can't find it!
Regards
Heather
-
Not sure if this has been mentioned, could it be that if they adopted her they may have changed her name, therefore her original GRO registration wouldn't be under the name of Elizabeth Joan Morgan?
-
I agree with Groom, they could have change her name, it looks like they had her from a very young age and gave her there name, instead of her birth name
-
Another thing intriguing me is that a woman alone was allowed to adopt.
-
Transcript of the Adoption of Children Act 1926 here
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/adopt1926.htm
makes interesting reading
-
I may be wrong, but is it not the case that if she was not officially adopted she would not be in line to succeed to Elizabeth's estate? Perhaps they suddenly realised that the situation had to be legalised before she was 21.
Isobel
-
that would be the case if Elizabeth G had not left a will. The estate would have gone to her brothers and sisters.
If she had left a will she could have left her estate to Elizabeth J.
-
that would be the case if Elizabeth G had not left a will. The estate would have gone to her brothers and sisters.
If she had left a will she could have left her estate to Elizabeth J.
So it probably would have been easier if Elizabeth G just left a will rather than go through adopting someone she'd mothered since she was a baby. Perhaps there was no real reason apart from the fact they suddenly decided that they wanted to make her officially part of the family.
-
Was Elizabeth not about to remarry, she would have to make a new will after marriage, maybe she was advised to adopt eliz. in case her will "got lost".
Mike
Added, given that this was wartime, Merseyside was being bombed, anything could happen I think a prudent solicitor handling her husbands estate would have advised her to legalise eliz. Joan's status,
-
even if the will "got lost" and the estate was treated as an intestacy, the daughter would not have benefited if her mothers husband was still alive.
In the rules of intestacy, spouse comes before child.
-
Hello everyone, just throwing another posssibility into this situation. Could it be that she was getting married and didn't want to admit that Oscar was not her natural father on the marriage certificate. Given how some people react to illegitimacy is this a possibility for the formal adoption?!!! Even though Oscar was already dead, she might have felt better about naming him and it showing as deceased.
Regards
Kathb
-
A good suggestion but to all intents and purposes Oscar had been her father since just after birth and even now you don't have to 'prove' who your father is on an English marriage cert.
There are many stories here of made up names on marriage certs.
-
I was thinking it was eliz. senior, oscars widow, who was about to remarry
Mike
-
Hi, I don't think adopted children had rights of inheritance unless named in a will pre 1949.
ref: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06379/SN06379.pdf.
Extract: The Adoption of Children Act 1949 (England and Wales), which began as a Private
Member’s Bill, provided that the placement of children for adoption would thenceforth be
supervised by local authorities. It also that provided parental consent to the making of an
adoption order, in pursuant to an application, could be given without knowledge of the
applicant’s identity. Cretney states that in practice “consent could now be given to an
adoption by a person about whom the mother knew nothing; and the emphasis originally
placed on the need for her to take a personal decision about the adopters’ suitability had
disappeared.”7 The names of adopters were not disclosed on application forms but serial
numbers were used instead. Access to the identity of the parent could only be given if an
application was made to the Register General.
In addition, the 1949 Act gave adopted children the same status as birth children giving them
the rights to inherit. It made provision for the treatment of adopted people as children of
adopters for the purposes of intestacies, wills and settlement.
Ray
-
Good evening everyone just a update on the mystery adoption - unfortunately I still don't know the answer. I spoke to the Superintendent Registrar in Chester and he straight away told me to ignore the short birth certificate and the reason being that on the original birth certificate her name could have been different. We - that's Elizabeth Joan Morgan's daughter are going to write to the Court in Chester - thank you all for your help and will certainly let you know the outcome.
Kind regards
Heather
-
Hi, I don't think adopted children had rights of inheritance unless named in a will pre 1949.
ref: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06379/SN06379.pdf.
You can leave your money to whoever you like, so if her mother had named her as a beneficiary it wouldn't matter if she was adopted or not. It would only be if there was no will that she wouldn't inherit.
-
Thank you for the update
Margp