RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: popsit on Thursday 11 May 17 04:02 BST (UK)
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HELLO,
I am looking for someone who might do a lookup for me of two births in france from 1838. The names of the parents were:
Charles Barnet Burns (or just Barnet Burns)
Anne Melanie Boval
These two people were married I thought in the 7th arrondissement on the 22nd Sept. 1838. They lived at 16 Rue Pastourelle, 3rd Arrondissement. I am led to believe that these two people had two children who died young. I am looking for information on these two children re their births and anything else someone may find.
Any and all help very much appreciated. Thank you
Popsit
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I would suggest you amend the heading to make clear the place and country. At the moment we can only guess! :)
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The problem is that if the children were born in Paris most pre 1860 records were burnt and I can't see anything likely in the reconstituted civil registration which is incomplete anyway. Just in case you don't already have the information, the reconstituted registration of the BURNS/BOVAL marriage gives his parents as George, deceased, and Anne née COMMANS (I think) and her parents as Jean-Baptiste, deceased, and Jeanne Louise née TOUCHARD or BOUCHARD. There is also a birth of an Anne Mélaine (sic) BOVAL on 1st April 1820 in Paris 6ème with no further details (this is a transcription on a commercial site but with no source indicated).
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I would suggest you amend the heading to make clear the place and country. At the moment we can only guess! :)
???? Ihave in the heading, birth details France and in the message I have the arrondesments is this not place and country
Modertor comment: the topic title of the first post has been amended. It is this title that shows on the Rootschat forum.
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The problem is that if the children were born in Paris most pre 1860 records were burnt and I can't see anything likely in the reconstituted civil registration which is incomplete anyway. Just in case you don't already have the information, the reconstituted registration of the BURNS/BOVAL marriage gives his parents as George, deceased, and Anne née COMMANS (I think) and her parents as Jean-Baptiste, deceased, and Jeanne Louise née TOUCHARD or BOUCHARD. There is also a birth of an Anne Mélaine (sic) BOVAL on 1st April 1820 in Paris 6ème with no further details (this is a transcription on a commercial site but with no source indicated).
Thank you for taking the time to find the above info. I do have the certs for their marriage which says exactly what you say above. In other info from Wikipedia it states they had two children, both died young. When you put her birth and marriage dates together it seems she was only 18 years old when marrying George. (marriage date 1838).Apparently George was back in England by the 1841 census so because there is a history of twins (George had a set of twins with one of his five ladies in his life, he was married three times) also his father also had a set of twins that died really young I am going with the idea maybe he had twins with Anne Boval. He just up and left her high and dry.Again thank you, it is much appreciated.
Popsit
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Any increased incidence of fraternal twins comes down the mother's line, so George and his father having twin children is just a co-incidence. Identical twins are just random and not related to any family propensity.
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There was a Burns born in Paris in 1839, check the archives (they are partly online), you'll find the reconstituted civil registration record here:
http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDUtMTIiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NTtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTU1OTQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=40 (http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDUtMTIiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NTtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTU1OTQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=40)
Yours sincelery
Belgian Ancestry Help
You can visit our website at belgianancestry.weebly.com
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jayaygee
http://archives.paris.fr/s/5/etat-civil-reconstitue/?
"Naissance" in Type de Document and searching for "Burns" returns (amongst others) -
"Burnouf (1831) - Buron (1822) ....."
Image 6 looks like "Ken'th Burns" possibly? Any thoughts?
Just pipped by previous poster!!
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I can't make it out at all, but I see it has been indexed as Hen'tte presumably for Henriette though I agree it looks more like Ken'th.
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I would suggest you amend the heading to make clear the place and country. At the moment we can only guess! :)
???? Ihave in the heading, birth details France and in the message I have the arrondesments is this not place and country
Modertor comment: the topic title of the first post has been amended. It is this title that shows on the Rootschat forum.
Thank you.
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Any increased incidence of fraternal twins comes down the mother's line, so George and his father having twin children is just a co-incidence. Identical twins are just random and not related to any family propensity.
Thank you for that
Popsit
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jayaygee
http://archives.paris.fr/s/5/etat-civil-reconstitue/?
"Naissance" in Type de Document and searching for "Burns" returns (amongst others) -
"Burnouf (1831) - Buron (1822) ....."
Image 6 looks like "Ken'th Burns" possibly? Any thoughts?
Just pipped by previous poster!!
Thank you for the above. I did read the reply that you say "you were pipped at the post" and have been through the lot. Yours above also interested me and I do think it is Kenneth and not Henrietta. If I could clarify things a little.
The couple I am looking for is..... George Barnet Burns and Anne Melanie Boval, married 22nd Sept. 1838 in Paris, however they lived at 16 Rue Pastourelle which is the 3rd arrondisment. On the copy of the marriage I have he says his first name is Charles. This is a big lie as he was never called Charles or even baptized as Charles. Throughout his life he lied all the time and was a person who lived on his wits so to speak. He had liasons with five women three of whom he married. This Kenneth one interests me as it occurred in 1839 and the other that is more interesting is number 41 because the child is called Jeane marie anne. Jeane was the name of Anne Boval's mother and Anne of course was her own name, I am thinking marie may have been the grandmother maybe. Thee only thing that is frustrating is I cannot read the year. It looks like it may end in a 9, so any children they had must be born after or in the year 1838 and possibly 1839 as by 1841 Barnet is back in England. He just up and left Anne according to the write up in Wikipedia.
Popsit
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There was a Burns born in Paris in 1839, check the archives (they are partly online), you'll find the reconstituted civil registration record here:
http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDUtMTIiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NTtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTU1OTQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=40 (http://archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMTctMDUtMTIiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6NTtzOjQ6InJlZjIiO2k6MTU1OTQ7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=0%2C0&uielem_rotate=F&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=40)
Yours sincelery
Belgian Ancestry Help
You can visit our website at belgianancestry.weebly.com
Although I have already replied to you do you think it possible to have any deaths looked for in the years 1839-1840. Just a thought
Popsit
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If you click on the link in my previous post and select "Deces (Deaths)" instead of "Naissances (Births)" you can search for yourself
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that is more interesting is number 41 because the child is called Jeane marie anne. Jeane was the name of Anne Boval's mother and Anne of course was her own name, I am thinking marie may have been the grandmother maybe. Thee only thing that is frustrating is I cannot read the year. It looks like it may end in a 9, so any children they had must be born after or in the year 1838 and possibly 1839 as by 1841 Barnet is back in England. He just up and left Anne according to the write up in Wikipedia.
Popsit
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The surname on image 41 is definitely BURON
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As I've said before elsewhere, one of my better tricks is sending posts before they are finished though I don't know which key is responsible! My dreadful typing certainly is. Anyway, as I was about to say, the year of birth of Jeanne Marie Anne is year 9 of the French Republic. It's the Republican calendar which began on 22 September 1792 and was abolished by Napoleon on 1 January 1806. Year 9 corresponds to 23 September 1800 to 22 September 1801.
Judith
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They lived at 16 Rue Pastourelle, 3rd Arrondissement.
Popsit
Just a bit of information that might be useful you and other researchers if you are not aware of it is that the numbers of the districts in Paris changed in 1860 after the incorporation of some surrounding villages into the city.
Rue Pastourelle is in the 3ème now but before 1860, don't think it was - it looks more like 8ème. That said, I can't for the moment find whether the old or new numbers were used for the reconstitution of the Paris civil registration for events prior to 1860. For what it's worth.
Judith
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As I've said before elsewhere, one of my better tricks is sending posts before they are finished though I don't know which key is responsible! My dreadful typing certainly is. Anyway, as I was about to say, the year of birth of Jeanne Marie Anne is year 9 of the French Republic. It's the Republican calendar which began on 22 September 1792 and was abolished by Napoleon on 1 January 1806. Year 9 corresponds to 23 September 1800 to 22 September 1801.
Judith
Thank you. Well that means it wasn't mine as 1838/9 is the timeline for me.nNever mind upwards and onwards hopefully lol.
Popsit
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They lived at 16 Rue Pastourelle, 3rd Arrondissement.
Popsit
Just a bit of information that might be useful you and other researchers if you are not aware of it is that the numbers of the districts in Paris changed in 1860 after the incorporation of some surrounding villages into the city.
Rue Pastourelle is in the 3ème now but before 1860, don't think it was - it looks more like 8ème. That said, I can't for the moment find whether the old or new numbers were used for the reconstitution of the Paris civil registration for events prior to 1860. For what it's worth.
Judith
hank you. Its little bits of information like that that if not known can keep you looking for ages and getting nowhere.
Popsit
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I would suggest you amend the heading to make clear the place and country. At the moment we can only guess! :)
???? Ihave in the heading, birth details France and in the message I have the arrondesments is this not place and country
Modertor comment: the topic title of the first post has been amended. It is this title that shows on the Rootschat forum.
Apologies, I see that now. Thank you
Popsit
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Many of the areas we now think of as "Paris" are actually in other departments surrounding the city of Paris itself - so if you can't find births/deaths it may be because they were lost in the fire but the family moving to somewhere near to but not actually in Paris is another option.
Incidentally, if you look at deaths under Boval you can see:
Jean Baptiste Boval d. 11 Nov (9bre) 1823, 7ème
and under Touchard (women are normally found under their maiden names, the original may name her as "Vve Boval"), a possible for his wife:
Anne Louise Touchard, d. 23 Jan 1847, 7ème.
At http://www.geneaservice.com, a site I often use for records for Paris and surrounds (you do need a free login, and full details are charged), there appears to be a Anne Melanie Boval death in Banlieue parisienne deaths, 1893-1902 - worth checking to see if this is your lady or a relative. Sometimes these records are duplicated on Ancestry.
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Many of the areas we now think of as "Paris" are actually in other departments surrounding the city of Paris itself - so if you can't find births/deaths it may be because they were lost in the fire but the family moving to somewhere near to but not actually in Paris is another option.
Incidentally, if you look at deaths under Boval you can see:
Jean Baptiste Boval d. 11 Nov (9bre) 1823, 7ème
and under Touchard (women are normally found under their maiden names, the original may name her as "Vve Boval"), a possible for his wife:
Anne Louise Touchard, d. 23 Jan 1847, 7ème.
At http://www.geneaservice.com, a site I often use for records for Paris and surrounds (you do need a free login, and full details are charged), there appears to be a Anne Melanie Boval death in Banlieue parisienne deaths, 1893-1902 - worth checking to see if this is your lady or a relative. Sometimes these records are duplicated on Ancestry.
Thank you for that info. There is such a lot of info to be had if you know where to look, forums like this are good value.
There is a possibility that the Jean Baptiste above may have been Anne Melanie Boval's father as she was born in 1820 and this man died 1823, also it looks like the Anne louise Touchard is likely to be her mother although on the marriage reg. her full name was Jeanne. I will go back into the site for deaths and see if I can hunt them out.
Popsit