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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: CHERAN on Tuesday 16 May 17 23:01 BST (UK)
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I am try to trace more information re:
Albert Francis Cavalry Laurence (Lawrence) and his wife Ellen Mensforth.... they are married in 1893 in the district of Adelaide (unsure of the exact date)....
Ellen's father is recorded as Edward Mensforth and given the info on trove for his obituary I believe Mrs. F. Lawrence of Cowandilla would be Ellen
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130254736?searchTerm=edward%20mensforth&searchLimits=l-state=South+Australia
I have noted there is other research about the Mensworth family on Roots but found it a little confusing but no mention of Ellen....
Albert's father is William Charles Laurence (Lawrence) and Albert's death is in 1951 in district of Norwood....
I am wondering Ellen and Albert are born in England as I can't find a birth for either in South Australia or a death for Ellen
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I am try to trace more information re:
Albert Francis Cavalry Laurence (Lawrence) and his wife Ellen Mensforth.... they are married in 1893 in the district of Adelaide (unsure of the exact date)....
Ellen's father is recorded as Edward Mensforth and given the info on trove for his obituary I believe Mrs. F. Lawrence of Cowandilla would be Ellen
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130254736?searchTerm=edward%20mensforth&searchLimits=l-state=South+Australia
I have noted there is other research about the Mensworth family on Roots but found it a little confusing but no mention of Ellen....
Albert's father is William Charles Laurence (Lawrence) and Albert's death is in 1951 in district of Norwood....
I am wondering Ellen and Albert are born in England as I can't find a birth for either in South Australia or a death for Ellen
Did something happen to you post where the blank dot points are?
Sue
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Sue
lost the internet (happen lots at the moment) before I could delete them thanks for Asking ::) ::)
Just checking the Ships List and came across the Mensforth family on the North with an infant daughter named Helen which I hope is my Ellen.....
Cheran
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BISA information-
MENSFORTH Edward b: 11.11.1847 Born Plymouth England, died 11.8.1930 buried at WTC
Arrived- 1875 NORTH 0ccupation- Carriage Examiner, Iron turner.
Married- Esther (b: 1850 d: 9.1.1930).
Children-
Eliz (1868-),
Joseph (1870-),
Ed (1872-),
Wm (1874-),
Helen (1875-),
Emma FITZGERALD (1881-1957)
Sue
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Marriage date 25 October 1893
Ellen's dad was Edward MENSFORTH
Albert Francis Cavalry's dad was William Charles LAURENCE.
Cheers, JM
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Jm
thanks for the date.....did it by any chance have the age of both....
Cheran 8)
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Albert Francis Cavely LAWRENCE born 13 April 1871, The Barton, registered Adelaide SA
Father as William Charles LAWRENCE
Mother as Eliza GIFFORD
Albert Francis Calvary LAWRENCE died 15 April 1951, registered in South Australia.
RED POST .... no date on the index I used, but here's Albert's birth and death :)
JM
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ooo thanks for that.....
8) 8) 8)
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SAGenealogy's bdm's indexes have limited information. One has to pay to find more unless you are a member.
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
From my resource
LAURENCE Albert Francis Cavalry 22 years Status Single Father William Charles LAURENCE
MENSFORTH Ellen 18 years Status Single Father Edward MENSFORTH
25 Oct 1893
At St Luke Church [Adelaide] Ade Symbol V 177/350
Symbol V
A variation exists in the spelling or interpretation of the names:
· A slight difference in the spelling of the given or surname between
· The Registrar's and the Bride and Groom's version. The bride and
· Grooms spelling is preferred where it is clearly written.
· The Regisrtar has recorded two versions.
· Due to poor handwriting different interpretations of names are possible.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Births Jun 1875
MENSFORTH Ellen W Bromwich 6b/842
Cando
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Thanks Cando... age makes it back to 1875 for her birth so looking good there...
Her death looks like 1947....
And I have found an Albert Henry Lawrence 1860 born to William & Eliza Gifford as well as a daughter Eleanor Gifford Lawrence born 1855 Brompton.... I think there is going to be a few more children there......
Cheran 8)
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Possibly Ellen's parents' marriage
Marriages Jun 1867
BAILEY Esther W Bromwich 6b/828
MENSFORTH Edward W Bromwich 6b/828
Cando
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I have the date of that as 21 April 1867 West Bromich... so thanks for the reference!
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Silver Wedding for the Mensforth Lawrence marriage
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87552605
Ros
adding:
LAWRENCE— MENSFORTH.— On the 25th October, 1893, at St. Luke's Church, by the Rev.
Archdeacon Farr, Albert F., third son of the late
William Charles and Eliza Lawrence, to Ellen,
second daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Edward Mens-
forth, Adelaide. Present address— Brooklyn Park.
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thanks Ros
Great help!
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Marriage of Albert's parents. Parents' names were not recorded in SA in 1854.
LAWRENCE William 24 years Status Single Father Unrecorded
GIFFORD Eliza 24 years Status Single Father Unrecorded
27 Nov 1854
At Trinity Church [Adelaide] Ade 21/208
Cando
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SAGenealogy's bdm's indexes have limited information. One has to pay to find more unless you are a member.
http://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
From my resource
LAURENCE Albert Francis Cavalry 22 years Status Single Father William Charles LAURENCE
MENSFORTH Ellen 18 years Status Single Father Edward MENSFORTH
25 Oct 1893
At St Luke Church [Adelaide] Ade Symbol V 177/350
Symbol V
A variation exists in the spelling or interpretation of the names:
· A slight difference in the spelling of the given or surname between
· The Registrar's and the Bride and Groom's version. The bride and
· Grooms spelling is preferred where it is clearly written.
· The Regisrtar has recorded two versions.
· Due to poor handwriting different interpretations of names are possible.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Births Jun 1875
MENSFORTH Ellen W Bromwich 6b/842
Cando
Cando
I found her birth on the GRO recorded as MANSFORTH..... Mother's maiden name Bailey...
MANSFORTH, Ellen Mothers maiden name: BAILEY
Gro Reference 1875 June Quarter in West Bromich Volume 06B Page 842
so thanks for the reference numbers which helped with her birth......
Cheran
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Interesting that the transcription of Ellen's birth from http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl has the correct spelling for her surname. More accurate than GRO indexes :)
I gave you the parents' marriage as we knew her mother was Esther. Esther was named as Edward's wife on the BISA information and as mother on SA birth indexes for Ellen's siblings as Esther BAILEY.
Cando
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Thanks Cando
:)
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Do you need anything else from the SA indexes?
Cando
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Could you possibly check date of Ellen's death in 1947.... and if Ellen and Albert had any other children other than
Esther Winifred Eliza Lawrence born 4 July 1898.....
:)
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Ellen's death notice
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article55892377
Ros
adding : this one gives children
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article35985941
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Could you possibly check date of Ellen's death in 1947.... and if Ellen and Albert had any other children other than
Esther Winifred Eliza Lawrence born 4 July 1898.....
:)
LAWRENCE Ellen 72 years Status Married Relative Albert Francis Calvary LAWRENCE [Husband]
5 Jul 1947
Residence Brooklyn Park Death Place Brooklyn Park Ade 714/2956
Ellen and Albert are buried at West Terrace Cemetery
http://www.aca.sa.gov.au/Records
I'll do the others later. Being called
Cando
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Thanks.....
8)
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Probable baptism for Edward:
at St Barnabas church, Liverpool, 9 January,1848
Edward MAINSFORTH, son of Edward (labourer) and Ellen, of Falkner St, Windsor. The street is still on Googlemap but with modern housing.
From the image of the marriage record:
21 Apr 1867, All Saints Church, Moxley, Staffordshire, by banns
Edward MENSFORTH, 20, bachelor, occ: turner, father: Edward MENSFORTH, tire(?)-blocker
Esther BAILEY, 17, spinster, father: William BAILEY, moulder
Both give their place of residence as Wednesbury, both sign
Witnesses: Thomas SMITH, Sarah SMITH
(The reason some records are showing West Bromwich is because it was the registration district for Wednesbury)
1851 at Hop St, West Derby - birthplaces as 1861
Edward MENSFORTH 35, blacksmith
Ellen MENSFORTH 36
John MENSFORTH 10
Henry MENSFORTH 8
Edward MENSFORTH 3
Martha MENSFORTH 10 Mo
1861 census shows at Dudley St, Wednesbury
Edward MENSFORTH 44, railway wheel tyre blocker, b North Shields, Northumberland
Ellen MENSFORTH 45, b Liverpool, Lancashire
John MENSFORTH 20, fitter and turner (can't read name of employer), b Wavertree (Liverpool)
Edward MENSFORTH 13, fitter and turner (can't read name of employer) b Liverpool
Martha MENSFORTH 10, scholar, b Liverpool
Thomas MENSFORTH 3, b Wednesbury
In 1871 Edward and Ellen and children Elizabeth 3, and Joseph 1, are at 36 Russell St, Wednesbury. Edward is unemployed and listed as 'son-in-law' to Elizabeth POWELL, head of the household, widow, grocer.
Judith
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Thanks Judith
Now have to work out the Mother in Law Elizabeth Powell as I have Edward's jun parents as Edward & Ellen (nee Boardman) and their wedding is about 1839 in Liverpool....
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Edward MENSFORTH who went to Australia was the son of Edward and Ellen MENSFORTH - will have a look for their marriage.
Edward is son-in-law to Elizabeth POWELL thus Elizabeth POWELL is Ellen's mother not Edward's.
Will write up Ellen's details shortly.
Judith
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Thanks Judith..... I hope I didn't mislead you It is Edward & Ellen in liverpool I was worried about so will love seeing how you work Ellen's details out!
Thanks so much for your help!
Cheran 8)
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In 1851 at Dudley St, Wednesbury
William BAILEY 32, Iron Moulder, b Wednesbury
Elizabeth BAILEY 28, b Wednesbury
Esther BAILEY 15 months, b Wednesbury
James BAILEY 10 Wks, b Wednesbury
Martha Bradley 14 - servant
Ann Kay? 66, visitor?
1861 - Similar entry but now in Russell St, Wednesbury. William's occupation is Railway tyre bender?
Elizabeth (Esther's mother) must be using her maiden name by 1871; listed with surname BAILEY in 1851 and 1861. I can't see a marriage for William and Elizabeth.
Judith
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Marriage:
3 February 1839 at the parish church, St Peter, Liverpool by banns
Edward MENSFORTH, full age, bachelor, blacksmith, father: John MENSFORTH, shipwright
Ellen BOARDMAN, full age, spinster, father: William BOARDMAN, labourer
Edward signs, Ellen makes a cross
Both give address as Norfolk ST.
Witnesses: James PARRY, Margaret CORRAN.
Judith
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In 1851 at Dudley St, Wednesbury
William BAILEY 32, Iron Moulder, b Wednesbury
Elizabeth BAILEY 28, b Wednesbury
Esther BAILEY 15 months, b Wednesbury
James BAILEY 10 Wks, b Wednesbury
Martha Bradley 14 - servant
Ann Kay? 66, visitor?
1861 - Similar entry but now in Russell St, Wednesbury. William's occupation is Railway tyre bender?
Elizabeth (Esther's mother) must be using her maiden name by 1871; listed with surname BAILEY in 1851 and 1861. I can't see a marriage for William and Elizabeth.
Judith
Sorry Judith i think i now am mixing up Elizabeth and Ellen so is the 1871 census is Edward & Elizabeth (nee bailey) with Elizabeth Powell?
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Thanks for Edward and Ellen marriage fantastic find☆☆☆☆☆
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Thanks for Edward and Ellen marriage fantastic find☆☆☆☆☆
On the Gro index Esther Bailey's mother's maiden name is recorded as Slade
Free BDM has a marriage for William Bailey = W. Bromich 1849 and on the same page Stead Elizabeth and Steaid Elizabeth
Vol 18 page 613
I wonder if Elizabeth remarried to a Powell????
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These are only possibles as there is only circumstantial information
There is a burial for a William BAILEY, aged 45, of Wednesbury at Wednesbury 3 April 1864. The age fits with William's given age of 42 in the 1861 census.
I stress that this one is only a possibility and you would need a certificate - there is a marriage registered Walsall, Sep qr 1867 for an Elizabeth BAILEY and on the same page there are 2 men, one of which is a William POWELL, but it's not clear which of these men this Elizabeth Bailey married. Walsall is only about 4 miles from Wednesbury.
Judith
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Thanks Judith :) :)
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Hi Cheran,
Thanks for your PM, I will reply to that soon....but just wanted to say that yes Esther Mensforth (nee Bailey's) mother Elizabeth's maiden name was Slade. After her first husband William Bailey passed away in 1864 as below, she remarried a man named William Powell in 1867. Hence in the 1871 census she is named Powell.
Burial of father:
County Staffordshire
Place Wednesbury
Church St, Bartholomew
RegisterNumber 718
BurialDate 03 Aug 1864
Forename William
Surname BAILEY
Age 45yrs
Abode Wednesbury
Mother's remarriage:
Name: Elizabeth Slade Bailey
Gender: Female
Father's name: Thomas Slade
Spouse's Name: William Powell
Spouse's Father's Name: Richmond Powell
Marriage Date: 1 Jul 1867
Marriage Place: Walsall, Staffordshire, England
1871 census - 36 Russell Street, Wednesbury, Staffordshire
Elizabeth Powell Head W 48yrs Grocer b. Wednesbury Stafford
Edward Mensforth Son-in-law M 23yrs Turner (unemployed) b. Liverpool Lancashire
Esther Mensforth Dau M 21yrs b. Wednesbury Stafford
Elizabeth Mensforth GDau U 3yrs Scholar b. Wednesbury Stafford
Joseph Mensforth GSon U 1yr b. Wednesbury Stafford
Emma Flard? Neice U 15yrs General Servant b. Wednesbury Stafford
William Bailey & Elizabeth Slade had 3 children that I know of including Esther. The info off Esther's birth certificate is below:
Esther Bailey - Birth Cert
Born on 16th December 1849 at Union (?) Street, Wednesbury, District of West Bromwich in the County of Stafford.
Father - William Bailey
Mother - Elizabeth Bailey formerly Slade
Registered by father on 18th January 1850.
She had two siblings, James (1851-1854) and John (1853).
I descend from Edward Mensforth (1847-1930)'s sister Martha Mensforth (1851-1927). You can see her in the census you have. She married and had her children in England, then emigrated to Queensland in 1887. She settled in Ipswich. Edward and Martha had only one other surviving sibling. (Their parents Edward Mensforth & Ellen Boardman had 8 children, but 5 died in infancy). Their surviving sibling was John Mensforth (1841-1900) who emigrated to Queensland in 1874. He also settled in Ipswich.
I hope this helps clear things up a bit ;)
Jenny
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Also I am presuming you are aware that both Edward Mensforth (1847-1930) and his brother John Mensforth (1841-1900) worked for the railways, Edward in SA and John in Qld.
Chronicle (Adelaide, SA) Thursday 14 August 1930
MENSFORTH - On the 9th August, Edward Mensforth, late of S.A.R., and Philip street, City, beloved husband of the late Esther Mensforth, aged 82 years. Leaving two sons, two daughters, 38 grandchildren, and 39 great-grandchildren. At rest.
The Register News Pictorial (Adelaide) - 13 Aug 1930 page 4
Pioneers Pass On
Mr. Edward Mensforth, 82, of Phillip street, Adelaide (colonist of 54 years; 40 years in S.A. railways service).
Jenny
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Thanks Jen
Your information dotted some i's & t's for me....
I will look forward to your pm...
Cheran 8) 8)
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Trying to track
Edward Mensforth father in the 1841 census
I came across a John Mensforth married to an Anne Hall on an online tree then on the 1841 census there is a John Mensforth and wife Anne with daughter age 13 with a family of Hall's in Durham.....
John is meant to have been a shipwright but has been elusive on the census...
Given that his son Edward Mensforth is meant to have been born in North Shields, wonder if any anyone can find either him or his father on the 1841 census.... ??? ???
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Hey Cheryl,
Yes Edward Mensforth's father has been a brick wall for me for well over a decade...I have looked and looked and I haven't found hide nor hair of him. I suspect that he died prior to the 1841 census to be honest. There are a number of Durham Mensforth's but none that seem to match well.
I did find a marriage in Tynemouth, Christchurch, Northumberland (which is basically North Shields), but it is too late to be the one you mentioned.
John Mensforth (father John Mensforth) & Ann Hall (father Thomas Hall) - 1855
The only baptism I have come across in years of searching where the date and father's name match (though the place and occupation do not) is below:
Edward Mensforth bap - 28 July 1816. Father's Forenames John, Mother's Forename Mary, Occ: Gardener of Church Street, Place: St Oswald, Durham in the County of Durham.
He appears to be on the census:
1841 census
Hallgarth Street, Elvet, St Oswald, Durham City, Durham
John Mensforth 73yrs Gardener Y (so born abt 1768)
Robert Young 41yrs Brewer Y
Agnes Young 43yrs Y
John Young 21yrs Y
Jane Young 19yrs Y
Agnes Young 17yrs Y
Henry Young 13yrs Y
Robert Young 11yrs Y
William Young 6yrs Y
Ann Young 4yrs Y
Thomas Young 2yrs Y
James Young 4mths Y
But a gardener is very different from a shipwright and I can't really convince myself that they are the same person...what do you think?
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Thanks jen i will load details of 1841 census i found tomorrow for you ::) the online tree had anne dying 1850 and john in 1870
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Ok cool, is this the one you mean? I had them put aside from my research over the years...
1841 census - Silver Street, Durham St Nicholas (living next to William Hall)
John Mensforth 50yrs Labourer Y
Ann Mensforth 40yrs Y
Mary Mensforth 13yrs Y
1851 census - 30 Silver Street, Durham St Nicholas (living next to John Hall)
John Mensforth Head M 59yrs Ostler (inn) b. Lovesome Hill, Yorkshire
Ann Mensforth Wife M 53yrs Midwife b. Ferryhill, Durham
Mary Mensforth Dau U 23yrs Dressmaker b. Ferryhill, Durham
I had a look at the tree on Ancestry and it is a bit all over the place, doesn't have much info to back any of it up. I take Ancestry trees with a grain of salt these days, so many people load lots of incorrect or poorly checked info onto them. It looks like Ann lived longer than 1850 as they have an 1871 census linked to her, and the link to Edward b 1816 is a bit suspect...
I will look into it a bit more and see what I think ;)
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This appears to be them in 1861 & 1871:
1861 census - Crossgate, Durham
John Mensforth Head M 70yrs Groom b. Yorkshire
Ann Mensforth Wife M 62yrs Midwife b. Ferryhill, Durham
John Bradley Son-in-law M 36yrs Cabinet maker b. Durham, Durham
Mary Bradley Daughter M 33yrs Dressmaker b. Ferryhill, Durham
1871 census - 3 Crossgate, Durham
John Bradley Head M 45yrs Subverger Durham Cathedral b. Durham, Durham
Mary Bradley Wife M 43yrs Dressmaker b. Merrington, Durham
John W Bradley Son 9yrs Scholar b. St Margarets, Durham
Ann Mensforth Mother-in-law W 72yrs b. Merrington, Durham
Merrington Road appears to be in Ferryhill. Ferryhill is south of the city of Durham. Ferryhill is about 30 miles south of the North Shields area, which is up on the Northumberland border. John Mensforth's professions (ostler, groom and labourer) don't really match at all with the claim of him being a shipwright....
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Ok I will leave it with you
Take care
Cheran
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Will let you know if I come up with anything of use ;)
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Jen
Find my past has a baptism for an Edward Mensforth 1816 Northumberland And Durham Baptisms Durham, England
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/SearchResults.php has the Baptism Church Street
Cheran
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Yes I know...as per my message below:
The only baptism I have come across in years of searching where the date and father's name match (though the place and occupation do not) is below:
Edward Mensforth bap - 28 July 1816. Father's Forenames John, Mother's Forename Mary, Occ: Gardener of Church Street, Place: St Oswald, Durham in the County of Durham.
He appears to be on the census:
1841 census
Hallgarth Street, Elvet, St Oswald, Durham City, Durham
John Mensforth 73yrs Gardener Y (so born abt 1768)
Robert Young 41yrs Brewer Y
Agnes Young 43yrs Y
John Young 21yrs Y
Jane Young 19yrs Y
Agnes Young 17yrs Y
Henry Young 13yrs Y
Robert Young 11yrs Y
William Young 6yrs Y
Ann Young 4yrs Y
Thomas Young 2yrs Y
James Young 4mths Y
But a gardener is very different from a shipwright and I can't really convince myself that they are the same person...what do you think?
I have a copy if you want me to e-mail it to you.
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Confusing I think..... I would like a copy of the Baptism ..... I think you have my email address now.
I have a copy of the Marriage Cert for Edward & Ellen now if you need but I am thinking you have probably already done all that work....
It would'd be hard to imagine a 73 year old person no longer a shipwright but now doing gardening but I don't really know!
If he is born in 1768 (remembering they rounded ages in the 1841 census usually by 5 years) he would have been 48 when Edward is born?
Cheran
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do you think that this baptism is a possibility for Ellen Boardman
Ellen Boardman
Christening Date: 15 October 1815
Father: William Boardman
Mother: Ellen
Saint Peter Paul, Liverpool Lancashire, england
********
""""Sorry " Jenny...... I can see you have already found this family...."
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No worries Cheryl ;)
Yes I do have the marriage certificate for Edward Mensforth and Ellen Boardman. Sorry I forgot to attach it to my last e-mail. I also have their death certificates and the death certificates for a number of their children...do you want these as well?
I will e-mail you what I have on the Boardman's and the baptism for Edward Mensforth 1816 son of John & Mary. I am not sure about a switch from being a shipwright to being a gardener either...also concerned that the baptism is in Durham which is a fair distance from North Shields....don't you just wish we could go back in time and ask them ;D
Jenny
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Thanks Jenny....
:)
Cheran