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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: kentishkiwi on Saturday 20 May 17 10:32 BST (UK)
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Hi
Hoping someone can help with my queries. My relative had over 30 years service in the navy but it is the years from 39-45 i am interested in at present. I have his service record and have all his ship/shore establishment movements. i would like to know why he moved about so much. His moves between shore establishments were quite frequent. His family lived near HMS Drake so I believe that had been his main base. An example of some of his movements follows.
HMS Helicon24 May 1942 - 17 Jul 1942,
HMS Cochrane 19 July 42- 20 July 42,
HMS Helicon 22 July - 31 July,
HMS Cochrane 2 Aug 42 - 5 Aug 42,
HMS Drake 10 Aug 42 - 15 Aug 42.
He then moved onto the HMS Ariguani 16 Aug 42 - 31 Jan 43.
Passage 1 Feb 43 - 26 Mar 43 ( I don't know why that took so long)
HMS Drake 27 March 43 - 29 April 43
HMS Gannet 30 April 43 - 1 May 43
RAF Eglinton 2 May 43 - 14 May 43
HMS Gannet 15 May 43 - 19 Dec 44
HMS Drake 20 Dec 44 - 19 July 45
HMS St Budeaux 20 Jul 45 - 30 Jul 45
HMS Drake 31 Jul 45 -18 Sept 45
I have looked at the locations and notice how far apart they are.Perhaps someone can tell me why he would move around so much.
I would also like to know what a chief petty officer's role was. What kind of duties etc. I am completely ignorant with military knowledge even though I am reading up as much as i can for my research.
Thanking you in advance
Pam
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Slowly does it! The role of a Chief Petty Officer, which at that time was the senior non commissioned rating (rank if you will) would depend on what his trade or speciality was. Thus a CPO in the engineering branches would have different responsibilities to a CPO in the medical branch. Common to all was his supervisory position. Your relatives record should hold clues as to his speciality. Have a look first at the branches paragraphs in this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_ratings_rank_insignia to see if you can identify the initials of his trade (best done when he was a lower rate than CPO).
That in itself may give us a clue to move forward on. Give us his official number also, the letters on it mean something.
Just to jump ahead a bit, the large number of ship and establishment names didn't mean he bounced back and forth and visited them all. The Royal Navy had accounting bases where a man's career was managed from while he was physically somewhere else or between ships and some are there in the list.
maxD
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Hi Max
Thanks for your reply. I have looked at the wikipedia page you recommended but couldn't seem to identify any initials.
He joined as a Boy in 1915 and his record up to 1928 is on Ancestry which you can see if you are a member. His name is Douglas Stableford Stevenson Number J35902 This changed to JX160148 on 12 September 1938.
Thanks for the info regarding the ship/shore details. Although I listed a lot of the bases, often there was an entry for 'passage for 1 -3 days between some of them so assumed that was travel.
Pam
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I'm sorry, the Wiki page dealt with the current system not the ones current in your man's time.
We can tell from his J number in the 1915 to 1928 record only that he was either a seaman (general duties on board ship) or a communicator (signalling), both trades had that same prefix letter. His division was Devonport which explains the constant references to Vivid 1 which was the accounting base at Devonport which looked after his pay etc when he was on a vessel that didn't act as its own accounting base (usually the smaller ones). Vivid also had the seaman and signalling school so the longer stays there may be courses. The only other thing we can tell is that he ended that period of service as a Petty Officer. The number system changed, not for the first time, in 1925, which is where the later JX came from.
There is another sheet of pre WW2 record that you have presumably seen which says re-entered 12 Sep 1938 for duty with RFSP D/JX 160148- does the WW2 record you have include Sep 38 onwards and does it have the same 160148 number ? (I can't at the moment identify RFSP and am taking advice from RN contacts).
Slow but sure!
maxD
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Pam
I think you can bracket some of the places together:
Helicon, Cochrane, Helicon, Cochrane are all the same place essentially related to the naval base at Rosyth.
Drake (Devonport), on to Ariguani a Fighter Catapult ship, then Devonport
Gannet, Eglinton (which was Gannet) Gannet - a fleet air arm station in N Ireland
Drake, St Budeaux (which wasn't a ship but a barracks in Plymouth), Drake.
A pattern of the accounting base having him on the books while he was physically somewhere else some of the time.
Are you able to post the whole record? There are clues elsewhere which should help.
maxD
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Max
Have attached copies of his records post 1928. As i haven't done this before I hope it is okay.
The record from June 41 to Sept 45 is just a list as I have done in first post . The information was not recorded on his service record so was extracted from Payment and Victual (P & V ) ledgers.
Pam
Will send in 2 posts
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Max
2nd attachment for DS Stevenson
Pam
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Thanks Pam. I need to take advice. Back in due course. Others may come along meanwhile!
maxD
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Your relatives record looks very much like that of one I have a copy of. He was also a CPO from my wider family. As a rating he was a 'signaller' on an armoured cruiser in 1914. Next posting was the battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth. Aha, I thought, Jutland, But QE was in dock undergoing maintenance. That is probably one of the reasons crews were in shore establishments. Then there were training courses and holding until reposting. My example was often in shore establishments. He was on Malta during the siege in 1941. Cousins here have some photographs from rating 1922 to CPO WWII.
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Progress, thanks to a little confirmatory help from a friend!
The clues to his trade are hidden in the hieroglyphics under the heading Rating in the non-substantive box. In turn these are GL 2 - Gun Layer second class and SG - Seaman Gunner. The dates make it clear that GL2 refers to his earlier qualification in 1923 which is on his other 1915-1928 record.
This means that he was a Seaman with the specialty/trade of gunnery and thus took his place on whatever gun(s) the vessel he was serving on was equipped with.
That said, the more I look at the record, the more I realise that my expertise (if that is what it is!) is far more suited to army records and it would be sensible for me to admit that it would be best to defer to folk with more detailed knowledge of the vagaries of the Royal Navy and of their records.
Apart from Regorian, nobody else has rocked up to translate the record which may suggest you would be better placing it on a more specialist forum. I still have some information pending, I hope, but meanwhile I shall send you a PM with some thoughts.
maxD
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Hi Max,
Just seen the post - I will take a look at the record.
Regards
Hugh
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Roger, thanks muchly.
Pam - here's an expert!
maxD
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Thanks Hugh
Your help is much appreciated.
Max, thanks also for your help too.
Pam
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Hi Pam,
A quick update although I am strapped for time at the moment so not able to give it my full attention.
He then moved onto the HMS Ariguani 16 Aug 42 - 31 Jan 43.
Passage 1 Feb 43 - 26 Mar 43 (I don't know why that took so long)
HMS ARIGUANI was badly damaged by torpedo in Oct 1941 and towed to Gibraltar where she was decommissioned and transferred to the MOWT and laid up in Gibraltar, later temp repairs were done and she was towed back to the Clyde so I guess he was aboard for the passage back to UK. [Source U-boat.net.]
I would suggest that RNSP relates to him rejoining the service as a Royal Navy Service Pensioner in 1938/9. I would also suggest that RFSP relates to the same thing and possibly even a typo.
Max has done a pretty good job of explaining some of the other things on his record. The record looks pretty normal to me. RN records are quite difficult to interpret due to the fact that shore accounting bases appear on lots of occasions. It is usual to see an actual seagoing draft mentioned in brackets next to the accounting base or base ship. I have also seen this written the other way around too. I also note he served aboard the China Station gunboat's HMS BEE and HMS GANNET [not to be confused with the shore base of the same name].
Any questions please feel free to ask - I will help if I can.
Regards
Hugh
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Teeny bit of clarification if I dare! The HMS Gannet on the China Station Hugh refers to is the 1938 one on his record. By coincidence, he later, as on your typed list, served in 1943/44 on HMS Gannet. the Fleet Air Arm station in Northern Ireland that had been RAF Eglinton.
maxD
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Hugh
Thanks for your input. At present I have a couple of questions and then I am going to go away and start at the beginning of this chaps service in 1915 and work through it so maybe I will hit you with some questions as I work my way through the ships etc.
I wanted to check the entries where there are names in brackets and confirm the first name is definitely the accounting base.
1. Colombo (Carlisle)
2. Flora (Yehonala)
After 12 Sept 1938 in the rating and discharge column he goes back to AB(Pens) 6years , then LDG Smn 3yrs (Pens) and so on. Can you tell me the reasoning for this as he goes back up to CPO in Aug 1939 and stays at that rank until 1945?? Does it mean he has to start again as he has been pensioned?
In the engagements section he has Commencement of Time- 12 Sept 38 and then 1 Aug 39 with N.C.S with differing dates. What does the abbreviation stand for, if you know. Is it something to do with continuous service???
Can you recommend a good website to research the various ships. I am going to reserve some books through the library but the internet is very easy. I have found www.naval-history.net.
I am going to attach the extracted records from the Payment and Victual ledgers so anyone can see what it looks like. I will also attach his previous service record from 1915 -1928 so any one else can comment if they want.
Max thanks for your help too
Pam
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Here is the 2nd
Pam
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Pam,
Both HMS COLOMBO and HMS CARLISLE were in reserve at the time and I suspect he was administered from HMS COLOMBO but was aboard HMS CARLISLE.
HMS FLORA was the RN base at Invergordon. YEHONALDA appears to have been seagoing but not much I can see on her – some kind of yacht at Aultbea according to Naval History.net
NCS = Non-Continious Service.
I suspect, although I am not sure, that he re-joined at the lower rate probably until the completion of a course.
Regards
Hugh
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Hugh
Thanks for your reply. Lots to get on with but the long weekend beckons first.
Regards
Pam
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To all those who helped with my queries.
I have spent a lot of time on this relatives service record and thought I would add a last post.
Although I had already received this man's service record I decided to email Navy Command with a number of questions and hoped they would reply. Yes, they did reply after about 2 weeks and although didn't directly answer my questions they did supply information on some of the vessels he served on as well as some additional comments on his service.
Hugh, if you read this they stated the HMS Yehonala was a hired yacht used as a Harbour Defence Patrol Craft. I know I did ask you about this vessel.
Towards the end of Douglas's service he was shown as serving on HMS Budeaux which they have said was a Tug although I haven't found anything by that name.
I ended up buying a secondhand copy of an amazing book which really helped with the Shore establishments. For anyone interested it is 'Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy' compiled by
Lt.Cdr.B. Warlow,R.N.
If doing a lot of Royal Navy research this is a worthwhile purchase. It also has a list of very helpful abbreviations.
The other amazing detail I found when doing this research was that by doing a timeline for all my relatives in Royal Marines/Naval service was to find that Douglas served on a ship at the same time as one of his uncles.
Pretty cool.
Thanks to all for your help
Pam
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A final final post!
The Budeaux is St Budeaux, a shore establishment in the Plymouth area HMS Impregnable from 1935-1947. There was a Budeaux rescue tug in the Great War, I guess they didn't look at the date.
Congratulations on an epic search!
maxD
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Max
Thanks for that. Even they make mistakes.
Regards
Pam
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Can you please tell me how to obtain a Payment and Victualling Ledgers record for a Royal Navy Chief Petty Officer during WWII and post-WWII? Thank you.
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Hi
The records extracted from the Payment and Victual (P & V) Ledgers were enclosed when I applied for the service record. If you look through my attachments the service record only went upto 1941. After more enquiries I was told 'The record cards as well as the pay ledgers do not record operational detail and we are aware that a complete picture of day to day activity, including possible service on ships may not appear. What we have provided, therefore, is as complete a record as we can given the paucity of information left to us.'
It doesn't help much does it? Have you got the service record??
KK
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Thanks for your reply and reposts. No, I do not have the service record. Where did you apply for the service record?
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Hi
Here is the link https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records I believe it costs £30 and you will need the death certificate. I am presuming the person is dead. Mine took a few months to come through. If the person you are researching was also in WW1 there are records available on Ancestry.
Regards
KK
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Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and the information. It is most helpful!
Kindest regards,
David Spencer