RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: Stephen K on Monday 22 May 17 10:48 BST (UK)
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A friend has asked me for help in finding information on her maternal grandfather William Holmes. This is the information she has given me but I can't get any further. can anyone help?
"I am stuck with my Maternal Grandfather William Holmes and his family. Rumour has it that he was illegitimate, and his father might possibly have been American. He died in Mallow, Cork in 1961 and he was circa 67. He married my grandmother Ellen Holmes in 1921 and my mother Ellen followed shortly after. My mum does not remember him having any immediate family. there is a connection somewhere with the Holmes in Fair st Mallow, but the William on that census is not him. I am not sure that the grand parents I have in for him are 100% either. My uncle told me before he died that the family on that side came from Bweeng, not too far from Mallow. I did ask Mallow heritage centre a few years ago to help , but they came up with nothing. I cannot find him on either census.
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If this is the marriage to Ellen Singleton he states on the marriage cert that he is illegitimate
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09237/5343207.pdf
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Thanks Dathai. At least that confirms his illigitimacy. Any suggestions on how I can find more of his family?
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i just noticed that Fr Murphy had written his name as William Cashman then crossed it out for Holmes possibly his mothers name (Cashman)
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9th April 1894 William of Ellen Holmes(illegitimate) born Kilpadder
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1894/02256/1848507.pdf
same place your William got married
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I think that this maybe William as WH in the workhouse in Mallow in 1901 LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000551788/)
Residents of a house 6.18 in Kilknockin (Mallow Rural, Cork)
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I wonder is this Ellen's marriage in 1904 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1904/10203/5713338.pdf)
The church record shows her from Glantane
also there is a marriage of a Margaret HOLMES in 1899 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1899/10402/5787794.pdf)
Link to 1901 Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Ballinamona/Ballyfilibeen/1128997/)
Death of Daniel HOLMES LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05518/4546667.pdf)
the informant on the baptism of William HOMES in Glantane on Apr 01 1894 is a Margaret HOLMES from a transcription - original not on line
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following on i thought this might be Ellens birth 1869
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5ZH-XYT
noting that Wm of Fair St may have the same parents
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10788/5934430.pdf
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Mallow_North_Urban/Fair_Street/1130234/
NLI Register not much help
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0111
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Ellen was the informant on her mothers death 1891 in Kilpadder
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1891/06067/4729971.pdf
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Ellen was born in Glashabee 1869 Googling Glashabee gives Glashabee,Bweeng,Cork
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03367/2234550.pdf
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I wonder is this Ellen's marriage in 1904 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1904/10203/5713338.pdf)
The church record shows her from Glantane
This is the family in 1901 LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Mallow_Rural/Ballygarrett/430150/)
They had at least four children LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-perform-search.jsp?namefm=&namel=hanley&ddBfrom=&mmBfrom=&yyBfrom=&ddBto=&mmBto=&yyBto=&locationB=&keywordb=holmes&ddMfrom=&mmMfrom=&yyMfrom=&ddMto=&mmMto=&yyMto=&locationM=&keywordm=&ddDfrom=&mmDfrom=&yyDfrom=&ddDto=&mmDto=&yyDto=&locationD=&keywordd=&submit=Search)
shown on census
c1903 Kate
Dec 05 1904 Edmond
May 01 1907 Mary
and
Sept 18 1911 William
The couple married on Jun 19 1904 and Edmond was born on Dec 05 1904
They show the daughter Kate as older
James is not shown as a widower on the marriage certificate
There is a baptism of a Catherine Holmes on Dec 03 1899 (slightly older)
of Sullivan Square, Mallow
No father's name but mother was Ellen Holmes and sponsor Margaret Sullivan
I cannot see her civil birth records
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Ellen Hanley appears to have died Barrack Street 1941 age 71
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1941/04707/4256980.pdf
James Hanley 1945
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1945/04626/4228151.pdf
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Thank you Dathai and My Luck. This has been extremely helpful. Dathai you gave me a link yesterday to civil records and mentioned that William of Fair Street might have the same parents. Looking at the link I can't see any mention of Fair Street and am wondering how you identified this entry as belonging to the Fair Street Holmes.
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Son Daniel age 8 on 1901 census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Mallow_North_Urban/Fair_Street/1130234/
born 1892 Fair St to William Holmes and Bridget O'Connor
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02320/1869409.pdf
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young Willie born 1898 had a twin Bridget for some unknown reason Bridgets maiden name is recorded as Gray
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1898/02090/1796985.pdf
Bridget the twin died age 3 and a half months
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05817/4647076.pdf
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I checked all the other births from the 1901 census and they all have Bridget Connor as mother
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I checked all the other births from the 1901 census and they all have Bridget Connor as mother
Its interesting as the baptisms show O'connor for the first four children, Creagh for the twins Bridget & William and Gray for the other five!
1889 Ellen
1890 Mary
1892 Dan
1896 James
1894 Maggie
1898 Bridget d.Jun 05 1898
1898 William
1899 Michael d.Dec 13 1900
1902 Patrick
1906 John/Jack
1909 Christopher
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Dont know what if any connection
Next door to William Holmes is James Gray living with the Bartons
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Mallow_North_Urban/Fair_Street/1130233/
James Barton married Annie Flynn 1899
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1900/10340/5764554.pdf
Annie Flynns parents seem to be the witnesses at William Holmes marriage
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Mallow_North_Urban/Fair_Street/1130244/
James Gray is living with the Flynn's in 1911 also as grandfather
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cork/Mallow/Fair_Street/430692/
Mary Flynn's maiden name appears to be Connors
birth of daughter Theresa
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02211/1834878.pdf
James Gray died 1915
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1915/05277/4465469.pdf
the informant was his daughter Mary Flynn
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When i first looked at William Holmes marriage to Bridget O'Connor dtr of James O'Connor i could not make out James occupation but now it is quite obvious SWEEP.
So i believe James Gray and James O'Connor are the same person.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10788/5934430.pdf
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Going back to Stephen K's original request
A friend has asked me for help in finding information on her maternal grandfather William Holmes.
I think that the Ellen HOLMES located is William's mother, based on the records in the area and the frequency of the name etc. but there would still need to be some evidence to prove same.
If Catherine HOLMES born 1899 is the Kate HANLY on the 1911 census it would imply to me that James HANLY was agreeable to accept Kate as his daughter.
As William was not present it may be his age (he had moved out) or his parentage. Unfortunately there is nothing to date to give further information on his paternal side.
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Hi myluck
what do you think of the slip on the marriage cert where the priest has crossed out Cashman and entered Holmes,perhaps William knew ? his fathers name .
On various baptismal registers where i have seen illegitimate children being baptised it looks like the priest has asked for both parents names then on discovering that the mother is not married he proceeds to obliterate the fathers name from the register.
just a thought.
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It's a difficult one as it's is assuming..
I'd love to see the original baptism to see if there was any reference there.