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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Joanne1969 on Saturday 27 May 17 14:15 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I would like to ask for any help or advice on my latest brick wall and would be terribly grateful for any feedback. My Grt, Grt Grandfather John Davies (no mention of a middle name in any documentation I have seen so far.)
He died in Montgomeryshire 03/11/1936 aged 78 - I know this as I have seen the monumental plinth in Mochdre Church yard.
This suggests his birth year is 1858 depending on what month he was born.
His marriage certificate (which I was able to order recently through previous help from RootsChat) states he was 22 on the 28/01/1882 a coachman at Bryncoch, Mold (His Father Evan a labourer, his wife Mary Anne Dykins)
This suggests his birth year was 1860 again depending on what month he was born.
1881 census taken on 03/04/1881 he is aged 21 a coachman birth Tregeiriog, Denbighshire
This suggests his birth year was 1860 depending on month born.
1891 census taken 05/04/1891 he is aged 32 a coal miner in higher Kinnerton, Flintshire
Birth year 1859 and place Tregeiriog Denbighshre
1901 census taken 31/03/1901 he is aged 42 a coach man in Montgomeryshire
Birth year 1859 and place Tregeiriog Denbighshire
1911 census taken 02/04/1911 he is now aged 52 still a coachman
Birth year 1859 this time he has written birth place Llanarmon DC Denbighshire which I now know as the parish that Tregeiriog resides.
To my calculations I'm thinking he was born between 04/04/1859 and the 27/01/1860.
I've looked at the births in the Corwen district, as this is where I believe births were registered via the General records office at this time to try and find Mother's maiden name - I've narrowed it down to two one of Williams and a blank Mother's maiden name in the D or fourth quarter.
But still having difficulties as I don't know where his parents were married or her name - I have found an Evan Davies born in Llanarmon Dc on the 1851 census aged 21 estimated birth 1830 in Ruthin but again I'm not having any luck.
I hope the information helps in some way to maybe getting some answers.
Thanks in advance
Joanne Davies :)
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Hi
Who were the witnesses to his marriage. It is also possible that his birth was never registered, this did happen in early years of registration.
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Hi Rosie,
The witnesses at the wedding of John Davies were a David Philips and Elizabeth Cheney.
Thanks
Joanne
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Is this the family in the 1861 census?
Living at Tyny Faclas, Llangwm, Corwen, Merionethshire, Wales
Archive reference RG09
Parish number 4309
Enumeration district 34
Page number 4
A possible marriage for the parents:-
Marriages Sep 1849 (>99%)
Davies Evan St Asaph 27 217
Hughes Catherine St Asaph 27 217
Birth registrations from the GRO:-
DAVIES, JOHN HUGHES Order
GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in CORWEN Volume 11B Page 375
DAVIES, JOHN HUGHES Order
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in CORWEN Volume 11B Page 367
DAVIES, JOHN HUGHES Order
GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in CORWEN Volume 11B Page 432
The 1862 one can be discounted as John's birth is before the 1861 census.
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Hi Girl Guide,
Thanks for msg - the earliest entry I have for John Davies is in the 1881 census taken on 03/04/1881 he is aged 21 a coachman birth Tregeiriog, Denbighshire not living with his family.
I mentioned his father Evan Davies as I'd hoped he may have lead to something. I'm getting ever so muddled with the districts etc all I know is that John's birth would have been registered in Corwen which I think "Gadget" mentioned on an earlier request and have since read on the GRO.
I was so hoping to find a baptism of a John Davies with a father Evan Davies and a christian name of his mother but unfortunately not.
:)
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Hi Joanne
I've looked at all my local Ceiriog valley records (Llanarmon, Tregeiriog, Glyn Ceiriog) but can't see a John bpt with father Evan for those dates. It might well be that the family were non-conformist so would not appear on the Church records. Nothing coming up on FreeReg (non-conf record source) either.
Corwen was the very large registration district covering that area. Llanarmon and Tregeiriog were quite a way from Corwen itself, so not sure that the family that GG found would fit - Llangwm is even further from the area. Also, the St Asaph RD is even further away so am doubtful about the marriage.
I think the best thing to do is to try and find him on the 1871 - haven't looked on that so far as quite busy and my favourite laptop is playing up :-\
Gadget
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PS
Can you give a list of John's children in birth order and also his wife's parents' names, please. They might give a clue if they gave children family names.
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In addition to Genuki, this map of the location of Tregeiriog and surrounding area might help others who are looking:
https://tinyurl.com/yccaee4t
(I can't get RC's shrinklink to work at the moment :-\ )
Gadget
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Though I can't find a suitable family in 1861 or 1871,in just using "Tregeiriog" as a keyword search term,the entries for the censuses gave "Llanarmon,Corwen,Merionethshire" or "Llangadwaladr,Llanfyllin,Montgomeryshire" in 1861 and only the latter in 1871.Maybe a search in Llanfyllin might yield something .
Regards
Roger
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I did check the surrounding parishes/RDs and couldn't find a possible baptism or birth registrations. I grew up in the area and got to know it's foibles when searching my own ancestors! It had many complexities in it's administrative divisions. For e.g., my birth was registered in a Denbighshire RD but my parents marriage was registered in Shropshire - both took place in the same place!
John records both Tregeiriog and Llanarmon DC as birth places
Llangadwaladr is split into two -
The ancient parish comprised the townships of Tre'r Llan, Tregeiriog, and Nantyr. These two latter townships were entirely detached, lying north of the river Ceiriog, and surrrounded by the parishes of Llansilin, Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog and Llansanffraid Glyn Ceiriog.
and
When Civil Registration was introduced (on 1 July 1837), the parish of Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog was assigned to the No. 2 ("Corwen") sub-district of the Corwen Registration District; which was co-extensive with the Corwen poor law Union.
I did a search on the 1871 with Tregeiriog and Llanarmon DC as a place of birth but nothing definite has come up so far. There are many pieces in the 1861 census that are missing :-\
Gadget
PS - worth looking at my map link in previous post: https://tinyurl.com/yccaee4t
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Just looked through my previous searches of the 1861 ~ the only John Davies b. Tregeiriog and of approx age, has father as Richard and mother Jane:
RG09/ 4264/64/3
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Hi Gadget, thanks so much for your information - to be honest my mind is mashed with the districts and I don't have the most articulate thinking mind :)
As you say, when Civil Registration was introduced (on 1 July 1837), the parish of Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog was assigned to the No. 2 ("Corwen") sub-district of the Corwen Registration District; which was co-extensive with the Corwen poor law Union.
So, to me even though John puts Tregeiriog/Llanarmon Denbighshire I'm guessing he wouldn't have known that Corwen was the registration district.
People would just put where they were born as asked as we do today. I was born in Montgomeryshire but my birth is recorded as Radnorshire!!!!
I'm thinking that maybe the family moved to Flintshire or just him for work, he was married in Bethal Chapel Mold 1882 (I don't know how this affects the non conformist thing) a year after being on the 1881 census also in Mold working as a coachman.
I'll add the names of his children as a last resort and thanks so much for your time.
Elizabeth M 1882
Sarah Ellen 1883
Katie 1885
Harriet Ann 1887
David William 1889
John Robert 1891
Jennie 1894
Rupert 1898
Gwendoline 1900
Dora May 1902
Myfanwy 1903
No mention of an Evan!!!!
Do you think this is a clue?
In Welsh, the name John is rendered as Ieuan (pronounced as Yay-an or Yey-an), Ifan (pronounced IV-an), Ianto (pronounced as Yan-to), Ioan (pronounced as Yo-an) or Siôn (pronounced as Sh-on). Ifan eventually became rendered into English as Evan.
Hope your lap top is better :)
Cheers Joanne
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Gadget Ps I forgot wifes's parents names
Wife Mary Anne
Wife's parents William and Margaret
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Hi Roger,
Thank for the suggestions of "Llanarmon,Corwen,Merionethshire" and Llangadwaladr,Llanfyllin,Montgomeryshire it's worth a try.
If I should find something I'll let you know it may help someone else.
Cheers
Joanne
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Hi Joanne
It doesn't look as if they used family names then :-\
I did do a step through of all the families in Tregeiriog on the 1861 and the only John Davies b 1858-1861 was the one that I mentioned (RG09/ 4264/64/3) with father Richard. You can check up to see if I missed any families by going to that ref and looking through the pages around that one. The only other John Davies that stood out was down as aged 10 - mother's surname was Edwards and she was a widow. It might be worth looking at that family just in case he was 10 months rather than years.
I also did a check for an Evan on the 1851 but nothing showing in Tregeiriog.
Gadget
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PS -
Re Evan - I have that name in every generation of my father's line that I've managed to track. The original one was an Evan Jones from Llangynog.. I think it then went into the patronymics ;D
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Sorry for yet another separate post but I'm assuming that you read these posts via e-mail rather than on the thread so am not doing any Addeds!
Here are the full details of the Tregeiriog families in 1861 ~
Tregeiriog, Llancadwaladr
Richard Davies, 26, labourer
Jane, wife, 28
Eliz(abe)th, d, 2
John, s, 7 mths
All born Lancadwaladr
and on previous page
Susannah Edwards, widow, 48, b. Glyn, Denbighshire (Glyn Ceiriog)
John Edwards, s, 23, b. -do-
John Davies, s, 10, scholar, b. Llancadwaladr
Gadget
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Wondering about this 1861 entry
Pen y bont, Rhiwlas, Llansilin, RG09/1876/63/14
Evan Davies, 24, ag lab, b. Llancadwaladr
Sarah, w, 22, b. Llangollen
John, s, 1, b. Llansilin
(Llansilin births are usually registered in Oswestry RD)
Gadget
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Wondering about this 1861 entry
Pen y bont, Rhiwlas, Llansilin, RG09/1876/63/14
Evan Davies, 24, ag lab, b. Llancadwaladr
Sarah, w, 22, b. Llangollen
John, s, 1, b. Llansilin
(Llansilin births are usually registered in Oswestry RD)
Gadget
Following on from above, there is this possible in 1871
RG10/5634/15/3
Tyn rhyd, Llangadwaladr
David Davies, 64, labourer, b. Treceiriog
Elizabeth,w, 63, b. ?, Denbighshire
John, nephew, 11, b. Llansilin
Sarah Ann, niece, 3, b. Glynceiriog
The description of the ED includes Treceiriog and, ironically, the Richard and Jane Davies, mentioned in a previous post, are on the previous page.
If he lived with his uncle in Tregeiriog from an early age, he might well think he was born there :-\
Gadget
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And that makes me wonder about the 1881 entry RG11/5508/68/2 in Mold that has an Evan Davies,labourer, born Llangadwaladr with a daughter Sarah born 1868,Glynceiriog.The parental couple don't really match the 1861 entry,but he/they are worth considering,I think.
Regards
Roger
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In 1841 at Tynrhyd David Davies has a son Evan given born 1836,which could make for John being a grandson rather than nephew(HO107/1399/9/7/9) in the 1871.Evan is not at Tynrhyd in 1851.
Regards
Roger
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That looks a pretty good match to me, Roger.
I wonder if the first Sarah died and Evan married another Sarah who was older than him and he then upped his age a few years. Surely, with the daughter born Glynceiriog and the right age and he born Llangadwaladr, they must be the same!
Have you checked for Evan on the 1871.
Gadget
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Just seen your second post - David could well be Evan's father as the nephew/niece description was used in different ways then.
My machine is like walking in treacle at the moment :'(
Gadget
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So we have:
1861
Pen y bont, Rhiwlas, Llansilin, RG09/1876/63/14
Evan Davies, 24, ag lab, b. Llancadwaladr
Sarah, w, 22, b. Llangollen
John, s, 1, b. Llansilin
1871
Tyn rhyd, Llangadwaladr RG10/5634/15/3
David Davies, 64, labourer, b. Tregeiriog
Elizabeth,w, 63, b. ?, Denbighshire
John, nephew, 11, b. Llansilin
Sarah Ann, niece, 3, b. Glynceiriog
1881
Long Cottages, Leeswood, Mold RG11/5508/68/2
Evan Davies, 50, general labourer, b.llangadwaladr
Sarah, w, 55, b. Mold
Sarah Davies, d, 13, scholar, b. Glynceiriog
Not found Evan in 1871 so far.
Gadget
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No,nor me.I can find him in 1891 still in Mold,given born 1837 Tregeiriog, with Sarah.
(RG12/4609/51/8)
Regards
Roger
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So he reverted to his 'real' age then!
i've tried various search criteria but nothing for 1871 - may have been very badly mistranscribed and somewhere between the Ceiriog valley and Mold.
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oh my word Gadget and Roger you have so much info - I'm afraid I'm well out of my depth here but I need to digest what you have found.
Please bare with me.
The only thing I can say at mo is that Evan's occupation was a labourer in 1882 when John his son got married and I'm presuming still alive as they usually write (Deceased) underneath what I've seen on some other marriage certificates.
When I looked on Find My Past earlier I tried entering the surname Davies birth range 1859 (give or take 10 yrs, Llanarmon Dyffryn Ceiriog birth place to see if I could find siblings with a father Evan but it didn't show anything but I guess it does show that Llan DC was acknowledged at this time. So, I haven't really got anywhere apart from find the 1881 census with John in Bryncoch Mold but I'm pleased about that. ;D
Thanking you both for your time and knowledge
Joanne ;)
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Ps just looked at the distance on the map from Llan DC to Llansilin only 20 mins apart - making a little more sense now ;D
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Throwing these in based on info that Roger and I have found:
Evan Davies and poss Sarah Jones, Mar Q 1859, Corwen, 11b p 596
.....................and poss Sarah Matthews Jun Q 1859, Corwen 11b, p 746
Mary Ann Davies reg Corwen RD March Q 1869 mmn Jones
If John was born Llansilin (and grew up in Tregeiriog), the Reg District would be Oswestry and lots of John Davies there!
Rhiwlas is very close also - my 2Xgranddad was a farm labourer around there and was always hopping around various villages! Very mountainous - it's the Berwyns ;D
Gadget
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The Matthews alternative looks plausible.There is an 1859 Llanarmon marriage for Evan Davies,father David,marrying Sarah Matthews,father Thomas.
I have a feeling somewhere in the search I came across a Davies/Matthews household record,though it was not obviously connected at the time-I'll see if I can find it again.
Regards
Roger
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The record was for Evan Davies,1871 census,at RG10/5652/150/26.He is gven as born Glynceiriog,Llangollen.His wife is not with him,but he has a daughter Sarah,given born 1868.
Staying with him is Rowland Matthews,given born 1835.There is an 1841 census at HO107/1400/17/15/9 with Rowland who has a sister Sarah given born 1839,and a father Thomas.Just can't make my mind up whether this feels right.
Regards
Roger
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I think I saw it too, Roger. In Cefn Mawr -- poss King street - but the names didn't fit! This from memory of going through many records!
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Don't want to plough through treacle again but if I recall correctly the children were born Chirk and they didn't fit the timescales :-\
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Found the full details again now. I did recall correctly ;D
While I can accept that the daughter Sarah could be recorded both with her father and with her uncle/grandparents, I think the fact that the daughters are down as being born Chirk was my main reason for rejecting the record when I saw it.
Gadget
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Reg for a Sarah DAvies Sept Q, 1867, Corwen - mother Matthews
So someone might well have put born Chirk when they were born Glyn!
Others need checking against the GRO - will try with this slow machine!
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Reg for an Ellin Davies March Q, 1862, Corwen - mother Matthews
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Ah - Mary might well have been born Chirk, which is where the muddle might have occurred :
Reg for Mary Davies, June Quarter 1865, Oswestry . Mother's mn Matthews
(Funny - the GRO seems faster than other sites!)
Added - but no John ???
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Perhaps it means that the Sarah Jones record is the correct one.
Regards
Roger
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Perhaps it means that the Sarah Jones record is the correct one.
Regards
Roger
North Wales BMD has that marriage taking place at St Collen, Llangollen but I can't find it in the parish records - maybe it might be among the ones listed in Pontfadog - was still a Chapelry of Llangollen until 1848.
Must sign off now.
Gadget
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Just found these on GRO site for a Jones surname:
Sarah Ann JonesDavies*- birth reg March Q, 1868, Oswestry 6A 695 - mmn - Jones
(*added - slip of the surnames!)
Some John Davies birth registrations - mothers maiden name - Jones
March Q, 1860, Llanfyllin
June Q. 1860,Oswestry
Sept Q, 1860. Llanfyllin (x 2)
Joanne - if you'd like to look through all the various postings offline, you can get a listing by pressing the PRINT tab at the top/bottom of the thread. You can then save the listing as a text file and print it off.
Gadget
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There is a possible death for Sarah Davies,aged 31,March Qtr 1869 in LLanfyllin.This could explain why the children are with grandparents(?) in 1871.I'll see if I can find a second marriage for Evan(also to a Sarah).
The specific naming of Sarah Ann probably favours the 1859 Sarah Jones marriage.
Regards
Roger
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I've found the 1859 Llangollen marriage - as thought, it was under Pontfadog! I don't think it is them as it's a second marriage and they are 44 and 50.
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A number of comments re your PM:-
The Evan Davies aged 14 in Llancadwaladr 1851(HO107/2499/567/1) looks a very good find(annuitant is crossed out on the original).
Your find of the marriage of David Davies and Elizabeth Hughes,Llancadwaladr 1828 also looks very promising.
The first child in the 1841 census at Tynrhud(sic) is Elizabeth.There is an 1831 baptism under Llanarmon DC with an address of Pen y Bont which s a good candidate.(I'm not sure if it's coincidence but Penybont Rhiwlas is,I think,the address for Evan,Sarah and John in the 1861 census-RG09/1876/63/14).
The last three children of David and Elizabeth in the 1841 census,Evan,David and Edward come under the civil registration system,and while it is circumstantial,there are entries for all three with mmn Hughes under Llanfylliin Union district.
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger, thank you for up date and confidence I'm getting such a good feeling about the Davies's now ;D
Today in my lunch hour I checked out if there were any hints on Ancestry on my tree from what I added so far and there was one for Enoch Davies 1843 • Llangadwaladr, Denbighshire 4th grt uncle!!!
It was the 1871 census and oh my word what a find (well it is to me) I found him and his family wife Elizabeth, his brother Edward 1840 wife Mary, the other brother Richard 1834, wife Jane and their parents David and Elizabeth Davies and little John (to where my request started) and his sister Sarah Ann (relationship nephew and niece but it just has to be grandson/daughter)
Soooo, extremely pleased I can't tell you.
There is still much to do but as I said I have a good feeling about the line I'm following, I wouldn't have looked at the next page on the census if you or Gadget hadn't have mentioned it in a previous mail THANKS.
It also named the places of worship within the Llancadwaldr parish and I got a photo of the Parish church at Llancadwaldr (I'll share it) .
Also, why I have a good feeling is because the following (It may help someone else)
My Uncle (Mum's Brother) is called David Gwyn Davies, his father was William Eric Davies, his father was David William Davies his father was John Davies, his father was Evan Davies and his father was David Davies.
Ok, the John and the Evan don't appear but David William was the first son of John Davies and Mary Anne Dykins (her father was William died as a Flintshire Volunteer) it appears John grew up with his Grandfather David (maybe there was a rift with his Father's 2nd marriage I need to look into that) but it all seems so plausable. John may have looked upon hos Grandfather David as his Father I don't know but that's my gut feeling.
Anyway, just wanted to share that in case there are any other confused amature genealogical Davies's out there ;)
I hope this thread stays open for a while as you and Gadget have helped unbelievably so
Many thanks as always to yourself and Gadget Joanne ;D
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....and Samuel is there too.
I took a while finding the 1861 census on FindMyPast.It is (mis)transcribed as Ean Davis of Percy Court,Hendon.....Oswestry.
Glad you are feeling confident.i will have a look again at the possible marriage(s) for Evan to see if that helps any further.
Regards
Roger
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Oh Cwl I'll check Samuel out - grt day in findings ;)
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There is an 1872 marriage of Evan Davies and Sarah Barlow in Holywell district,which would encompass Mold and fit a second marriage.There is also an 1825 baptism of Sarah Barlow in Mold,consistent with the 1881 census.
Regards
Roger